Looking for a short defensive carbine

[christophera]

christophera, Century uses Romanian stocks on their SAR-1's. Therefore, replacing one of those (Romanian) stocks with a (Romanian) side-folder or (Polish) under-folder would leave the foreign parts count, and therefore the U.S. parts count, the same as when he started. As long as you don't replace the FCG or gas piston with a foreign part, there shouldn't be any problem, as those are the U.S. made parts Century most commonly uses (they've also been known to use U.S. mag followers).

I might be wrong but I heard to get a folder you had to add more US parts then just the stock. But, you may be right. I'd still check out AR15.com to be sure.

 

[buzz_knox]

christophera, Century uses Romanian stocks on their SAR-1's. Therefore, replacing one of those (Romanian) stocks with a (Romanian) side-folder or (Polish) under-folder would leave the foreign parts count, and therefore the U.S. parts count, the same as when he started. As long as you don't replace the FCG or gas piston with a foreign part, there shouldn't be any problem, as those are the U.S. made parts Century most commonly uses (they've also been known to use U.S. mag followers).

But I believe this misses the point. You can only convert an imported post-89/90 ban sporting rifle into an "evil assault rifle" if the foreign part count is reduced, not kept the same. It's not a matter of simply replacing one stock for another; you have to increase the US parts count to have that fixed stock replaced by a folding stock. Of course, getting an American manufactured AK folder (while not as historically accurate) would probably fulfill the parts count.

 

[landon74]

How about a Winchester 94 ranger youth model in .357 Mag? I'd think it's about 30" with a 10 round capacity....

 

[Colden]

Not for storage! I want it to be usable and 26" or so long. Can someone clarify the potential legal issue with putting a folding stock on a Romanian SAR-1 imported by Century that came with a foreign laminated wood fixed stock set?

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

Now that the ban is dead you can get a good Romanian 47 with a good Romanian folder for around $450-$550. Make sure that you get one with a Romanian folder, not an aftermarket plastic job. It may be true that the plastic won't break, but the metal Romanian folders are standard on most of the rifles that are issued by the Romanian army and the Romanian para-military police(Bucherestii para millitaria I think) so they are tough, battle tested and work perfectly.

If you are really interested in an AK, I think it would be very worthwhile to consider getting an AK74 rather than an AK47. The 74's chambered in 5.45 are fantastic rifles and amazing shooters. Getting a good folder on a 74 shouldn't be too hard, and I think the 5.45 round is better suited to what you want this rifle for.

 

[Colden]

I have a SAR-1 that I described in my previous replies. I am more interested in modifying its laminated fixed stock than getting a whole new AK-pattern rifle.

Of course it's not a 100% solution to my original question (26" OAL, 16" barrel) because the stock must remain folded for the AK to be close to 26". I am not even sure that a Romanian side-folder can be fired in the folded position. Doesn't it pretty much cover or at least interfere with the safety and charging handle? That's why I think an under-folder would suit me better.

Still not sure about the legal status of this, and browsing AK47.net/other sites hasn't been too helpful thus far.

 

[Black Snowman]

Doesn't it pretty much cover or at least interfere with the safety and charging handle?

The AK side folders fold the stock to the left side, under the scope mount, so it doesn't interfere with operation in any position. However, good luck getting a cheek weld on one. That's a non-issue in CQB of course.

 

[Bigfoot]

My short gun has a sling and a laser sight. I can aim and fire it one handed with it slung from my shoulder while leaving my left hand free to open doors or shine a flashlight.

 

[bubbygator]

What laser??

 

[Domino]

Another vote for the M17. At least go to a gun show and handle one and see how you like it. Every since I handled a STEYR AUG I knew I wanted a bullpup, although the M17 doesn't quite compare. The M17s is not really designed to be use with the stock sights, it really need some sort of red dot or scope. All and all the controls are JUST like an AR-15 and it takes the same mags. I see a lot of older guys who have never used bullpups before be absolutely clueless to the controls, I guess it just seems intimidating to someone tuned for conventinal rifles. For me, I've become quite used to it and pretty good with it. Mine gets about 1" at 100 yards with Georgia Arms 68g match from a bench, which is the best i've tried so far. Plus you can cut the barrel down to 16" and get the desired length you want. I'm not sure you can get what you want with a a more common rifle such as an AK or M1 carbine unless you want to use it with the stock folded , with a bullbup you have a weapon that is readily deployed and quite usable with a little practice. I also think a sub 2000 is a good choice, fits in a briefcase dude what more can you ask for!

 

[Bigfoot]

It's an Aimshot. I'll put a green laser on it when the prices come down making it brighter in the daytime. The point was that a folded gun (or bullpup) doesn't have to be shouldered in order to be aimed. This way it stays close to your body, even closer than an extended handgun.

 

[Domino]

My short gun has a sling and a laser sight. I can aim and fire it one handed with it slung from my shoulder while leaving my left hand free to open doors or shine a flashlight.

But what kind of gun man! All I can say is that i've tried to shoot my SKS when I had a folding stock on it and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when shooting form the hip (with the stock folded). But, more power to ya if ya can do it with a laser. Hell, just get a compact shotgun or a .357 lever gun, it'd be way more handy and better suited for CQB anyway.

 

[DHart]

You said you weren't considering lever rifles, but I just thought I'd throw this in. I wouldn't want to face one of these in the hands of someone who's good with a lever rifle...

.45 Colt caliber 250 gr. Hornady XTP/JHP bullet moving along at 1250 fps. got nine in the tube and one in the chamber... can top off the mag anytime. Not everyone's cup of tea, but a formidible defense rifle nonetheless. Nice and compact, powerful, reliable, looks great, and a ton of charisma! Good also for hunting, plinking, as a camp gun, truck gun, and defense rifle. And, God forbid, should one have to defend oneself in court after a shooting, this type of rifle would look anything but evil and menacing to a jury. Just my choice, that's all. Here are a few of mine.

Winchester/Miroku '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .45 Colt

Winchester '94 16" Trapper - .45 Colt

Legacy/Rossi '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .454 Casull/.45 Colt also

P.S. Someday I'll probably add a Beretta Storm in .40 or .45 to my stable, just 'cause I think one would be fun to have.

 

[OEF_VET]

You can only convert an imported post-89/90 ban sporting rifle into an "evil assault rifle" if the foreign part count is reduced, not kept the same. It's not a matter of simply replacing one stock for another; you have to increase the US parts count to have that fixed stock replaced by a folding stock. Of course, getting an American manufactured AK folder (while not as historically accurate) would probably fulfill the parts count.

Once Century put the U.S. parts into the SAR-1, it became an American made rifle. 922r does not differentiate between folding stocks or non-folding stocks. The legality of putting a folding stock on a rifle, versus not doing so, became a moot point on 14 SEP 04, with the death of the AWB. So, you may now put a folding stock onto your SAR-1.

Of course, you can always just ask on AR15.com, if you don't believe me. Of course, since I'm a somewhat regular poster over there, I don't see how my opinion here is of any less value than it would be there.

 

[Colden]

The reason I specifically requested semi-auto is simple: I may not be able to use both hands to cycle the lever/bolt/pump, what have you. With a folded SAR-1, I should technically just worry about the trigger and hold on to the pistol grip. At least in theory.

It's really good to know that putting a folding stock on a SAR-1 is legal as-is. I am relieved both since I can now do this, and because it would be a ridiculous notion that an imported and US-fixed rifle would need more messing around with just to swap a stock.

In any case, a side-folder sounds like it would get in the way of holding or operating the rifle. I also thought that unlike Russian folders, Romanian folding stocks folded on the safety's side. As someone pointed out here, I may be completely wrong.

If someone has links to a how-to on adding a Bulgarian under-folder that K-Var sells or a similar under-folder, please let me know.

You guys have been great!

 

[OEF_VET]

Colden, you are correct in that Romanian side-folders do fold towards the right, or the side with the safety lever. This, however, doesn't really make it any more difficult to operate the safety than with a standard stock, or with an underfolder for that matter. (The placement of the safety lever is one of the bigger complaints most folks have with the AK system.) The way a Romanian folder is shaped, you can operate the safety with the stock folded. All you have to do is move your hand up and extend your trigger finger until you can reach the safety lever. Then, you just slide your hand back down and squeeze the trigger.

You can also unfold the stock with your hand on the pistol grip by simply reaching your thumb back, pressing the release button with your thumb, and using your trigger finger, push the stock away from the gun and into place.

Blackjack Buffers markets an extended safety lever for the AK which alleviates the problem of not being able to operate the safety with your hand on the pistol grip. You can get their levers with or without a bolt holdback notch. Red Star Arms sells them on their website. I have one on one of my SAR-1's and will most likely be putting them on several of my other AK's in the future.

If you do go with a folding stock of some variety, be warned, it will not be easy to direct aimed fire at anything beyond 10 feet or so, unless you extend the stock, and near impossible with one hand. I say this because you state you want a semi-auto for its' ease of operation one-handed. However, an AK with a folded stock is not a one-handed weapon, especially with a loaded magazine. With an full stock, or an extended stock, you can POSSIBLY fire shots in the general direction of your intended target with the stock held in the crook of your arm. A folding or collapsing stock on a rifle is not intended for firing with the stock in any position other than in its' extended state. The ONLY purpose of a folding/collapsing stock is to make the weapon compact while in a small area, such as a vehicle. BEFORE you go into a firefight, or immediately after contact is initiated upon you, you should extend the stock and then begin firing.

I don't think you'll find too many rifles out there with a 16" bbl AND an OAL ~ 26" with a full stock, unless you go bullpup. Heck, with a 16" bbl, that would only leave 10" for reciever AND stock. Even with a pistol caliber, which would give you a shorter reciever than a rifle caliber, you still wouldn't have enough stock to fire comfortably. If 16" bbl, 26" OAL, and semi-auto are your primary concerns, you don't have many choices. You're pretty much limited to bullpup, SBR, or some form of folding stock. Good luck on your quest.

Frank

PS: If you want anymore info on AK's, such as good sources for ammo, mags, furniture, etc., or 'net links regarding AK's, drop me a PM.

 

[Bigfoot]

But what kind of gun man! Hell, just get a compact shotgun or a .357 lever gun, it'd be way more handy and better suited for CQB anyway.

I don't like jacking Coldens thread but its a Mini-30 in one of these stocks
http://www.gunaccessories.com/MWG/index.asp scoped. I can hit with it from the hip with one hand, slung. But I've taught myself instinctive shooting (tape up the sights) with that and the Glock. I'd only do that at in real life if my left hand was busy, only at very short range, and only if I had to. And you thought a M17 was cheap looking. Hey it hasnt failed to fuction yet.

I agree with your shotgun recomendation but it's tough to beat the SAR with a full clip too.

Put a laser sight on it. They're cheap and they make great training tools. Unload the gun, point it at a spot without using the sights and then check your aim with the laser, for hours on end. You might be amazed at our natural ability to point something with a little (or a lot of) practice. When you get good, go to an empty range and surprise yourself.

 

[Domino]

Neat idea Bigfoot, as long as it works right.

The reason I specifically requested semi-auto is simple: I may not be able to use both hands to cycle the lever/bolt/pump, what have you. With a folded SAR-1, I should technically just worry about the trigger and hold on to the pistol grip. At least in theory.

I think your probably going to have a lot of trouble holding a SAR-1 folded with one hand unsupported (one-handed) and trying to balance it and hit anything. It seems your talking about bieng able to shoot it from the hip as well, right? I dunno, something just seems a little impossible about trying to shoot like that (unless you have a laser sight or something), you ought to try it first and see how well you can do it. If your only considering in using it at very close range than I would say that 7.62X39 isn't the best choice since it will punch through about 7 guys before it even begins to slow down considerably. But hey, I'm not trying to shove stuff down your throat but just give you some worth while advice. Oh, one more thing, hate to go back to the bullpup concept but I can hold my M17 one-handed and it is VERY well balanced, shouldering takes half a second and you have aimed shots in place. Plus it's compact so opening doors and operating equipment can be done MUCH easier than with conventinal rifle designs. Good luck!

 

[Bigfoot]

If your only considering in using it at very close range than I would say that 7.62X39 isn't the best choice since it will punch through about 7 guys before it even begins to slow down considerably. QUOTE]

For excessive penetration issues here's some .311 V-MAX bullets. http://tinyurl.com/5qxrw I haven't read anyone report on their performance yet. Winchester 123 gr SP give close to 14 " penetration and is one of the best performers along with Federal 123 gr SP.

 

[esldude]

Not sure which defensive scenario you have in mind.

If indoors, I think the larger calibers are too loud and too much. A 9mm makes much more sense, or a .40 caliber.

If you feel they aren't enough, go with a shotgun.

If outdoors, but short range, I think a 44 mag semi-auto is hard to beat.

 

[threefeathers]

After reading all of the posts I have to vote for the M-1 carbine. I have 32 rifles including a Bushmaster M-4 clone, HBARS, etc.

I have two carbines I alternate in the truck. A shooter Winchester M-1 carbine with two 15 round clips of Federal Soft point that shoot to aim at 150 meters, And, a British Jungle Carbine with a loaded 10 round mag. When the shootout occured in LA I purchased 20 rounds of 303 armorpiercing just in case I run into a similiar situation.

 

[MrMurphy]

Rather like an Uzi, you can one-hand the Keltec Sub-2000 in 9mm or .40, and there are Glock 33 round mags available now. (Again). It feeds from Glock mags.

 

[wdlsguy]

I'm looking for a rifle or carbine with approximately 16" of barrel length and as close to the legal 26" overal length limit as possible. I want it to be quick and light, and most likely semi-auto (as opposed to lever, pump, bolt, etc. etc.). 10+ rounds capacity and detachable magazines would be nice bonuses.

Ruger Mini-14 with a Butler Creek folding stock?

 

[Gewehr98]

Sidefolder, or underfolder AK would be my vote.

But NOT for defensive firing one-handed with stock folded. That's a liability, plain and simple, no different than the PGO (pistol-grip-only) shotguns being talked about in the Shotgun forum here at THR. Plenty of kewl-bling factor, but defensively they're not much more than a joke propogated by first-person video games. Open and lock the stock, then press on with the business of defending yourself. You'll have a much better chance of neutralizing the aggressor, and NOT accidentally neutralizing those who weren't your intended target by virtue of your unsupported cone of fire.

Here's a SAR-1 that's already set up as a sidefolder, U.S.Code 922r legal and all:

Florida Gun Works sidefolder AK

 

[conan]

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