May 1: Remember Communism today.

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AntiqueCollector, that doesn't make a lick of sense.

The USDA, under a pro-business administration, has inspections defunded and becomes more amenable to the wants and desires of agribusiness. A rash of recalls and problems break out.

Clearly, then we've proved that inspections don't work. Wait, no, that's not even coherent. We've proved that when inspections don't happen, they don't work.

It's proof, then, that if when the government's loyalties lie to corporations rather than people, bad things happen.
 
One wonders how many anti-education tax zealots here would allow me to opt out of funding the military, CIA, NSA, war on terror, etc.?

Pretty sure I'll come out on top of that bargain.
 
You missed my point. Any paper will be biased. Ignoring opinions and statements purely by source is naive. I listed a good argument from that paper. If you even refuse to rationalize or consider statements just because it comes from a specific source then I've got nothing else left to say since my "opinions" will be too biased to be considered as well.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about social security. My original response is that welfare in this country is not dominated by "street handouts", but by social security and medicare/medicaid. Collectors only pay a portion of what they collect and are guaranteed a positive return. The government still has to pay for the return since you're pretty much getting a government pension fund.
 
Actually Quatin

You CAN toss the loss of manufacturing jobs right at the feet of unions. Why do you think that GM, ford and Chrysler cannot compete with Japanese auto makers? The COGS and the QC here.

COGS, when GM has to add $1500 per car to pay for their retiree's viagra, then their cars cannot compete.

COGS, when Ford pays a dude $40 per hour to hammer a rivet and Toyota pays far less, who picks up that cost?

The lavish spending that GM and Ford agreed to was very short-sighted by management. When you are paying some dude $100k per year to weld a frame, you cannot compete in a global market.

QC when the perceived quality of American made cars and Japanese cars is compared, who comes out on top? Why is that? A combination of bad management decisions and the union employees not giving a crap about there jobs... as they are protected.

In this economy, a business must do what it needs to control costs and compete for business. When widget maker 1 makes widgets oversees at a lower cost and is selling them and driving widget maker 2 out of business, Widget maker 2 has no other choice but to follow suit. Either they become competititve or they die.

Simply put, the unions brought about their own destruction and took down the very people they were supposed to help.

Ever wonder why the only sector growing in unions is Government employees? Yes, the only "Business" that is immune to competition and breeds corruption, sloth and a wasted bunch of driveling humanity.
 
Do you think it was any coincidence that the mexicans had their rally on a communist holiday? ...Um... Nope none at all. ;)
 
The auto industry has more problems than just labor unions. Horrible managment, the worst marketing campaign to date, incorrectly catagorizing themselves to the market and worst of all losing a significant market share to foreign competition in the first place.

You're also not catching my point. I didn't say pure socialism is good or pure capitalism is good. I keep refering to "The Grapes of Wrath". What about when companies are allowed to be monopolies and force the wage down to below cost of living and require company housing? They then produce inferior products due to lack of competition and since the government can't regulate trade (because it's too commie) a handful of companies dominate the transportation of goods sector thereby locking down competition?
 
Not true, Dravur. I workED as an engineer for 14 yrs at Ford and 2 at GM. Management doesn't have a clue. There are not mant auto enthusiasts in any meaningful position. And you're not promoted if you are - probably because the rest are threatened at the insight and intuition a car guy will have in a car company. Duhhh!

The engineers could be more technical. We have those who are test engineers and then we have CAE engineers. Those functions could be combined for those who are capable.

The engineers could be more disciplined in the use of DMAIC (i.e., statistics, FMEAs, etc.)

However, Management must LISTEN (they don't) and their needs to be persons with VISION running these companies (there aren't). One cannot follow the Japanese and expect to overtake them. Aint gonna happen.

I could go into details, but it wouldn't be fair to those who, for whatever reasons, chose not to apply for the Voluntary Salaried Separation Package.

The Union is also a very large problem as you are aware, but the salaried differences aren't as great as one would always assume. The benefits pkgs are less with the imports.

The reduction of tariffs (i.e., NAFTA, GATT, WTO, CAFTA, etc.) will destroy the manufacturing (and engineering) base of this nation. We'll be ripe for takeover (either internally or externally, it won't matter much).
 
Hiya

I never said that management was zen-like in its intelligence at Ford, et al. I totally agree that the management of all these comnpanies is run by chimps.

However, having management chop off one foot while the other foot is being eaten away by the corruption and short-sightedness of the unions just topples them faster. It quickly becomes, who gets to blame who first.

In the auto industry, it is just probably the most extreme example.

The example still works for even a fictional widget company. When the production costs become too high to continue to produce, the company has only a few choices, cut costs in manufacturing by use of robotics etc, shipping the jobs overseas to lower the cost of manufacturing, cut margins, which allready might be razor thin, or close.

When a Union holds a company hostage as their employees demand a wage that is far too high for the value of work, it really leaves the company with few choices.

It truly is interesting, no one seems to complain when Japan out-sources their auto industry to Tennessee and West Virginia......
 
when the government's loyalties lie to corporations rather than people

Silly.

Corporations ARE people. So is "the government". So are activist groups, trade groups, unions, whomever.

When a government's loyalties are to "people", watch out.

It doesn't matter if those people are corporate shareholders (50% of the US population), environmental groups, "workers", racist groups, trial lawyers, "activists", or whomever.

That's why we have a Constitution.

Pure democracy degenerates into a Tyranny of the Majority very quickly, as the Athenians discovered. Fickle mobs are as deadly as fickle dictators. Generally, the truly evil regimes have comprised both.
 
One wonders how many anti-education tax zealots here would allow me to opt out of funding the military, CIA, NSA, war on terror, etc.?

I'd support you in that.

All power corrupts. The power in public schools and in teacher's unions corrupts, too, just like the power in the "MIC".

Of course, there's a slight difference when it comes to national defense. If someone wants to opt out of public education, one can do so. It's hard to opt out of the basic functions of government, like defense, the system of criminal justice, or roads.

That's the problem, really, with your proposed "trade." Say the military flat out wastes 75% of the tax dollars it receives, but actually provides protection for the inhabitants of the United States with the other 25%. We still benefit from that protection just by being here. So you're really offering to trade apples for orange pencils.

This is a problem I wrestle with, as well. How do you have true checks and balances in a system where there IS no alternative, and there are no real choices for the individual "consumer" of military protection?

With education, on the other hand, there are 100% private alternatives one could choose.

(I don't buy the peacenik premise that we don't need a strong military, since nobody would attack us if we showed them we couldn't defend ourselves when they did. If you buy this premise, I guess we have little to discuss.)
 
If, however, the state pools our income, giving us both 150 per week, I have no motivation to improve.

True communism is stateless and classless. There is no "pooling" of income.

I think every American should take a trip to a formerly socialist country, and take a good look at the fruit that that tree bears. I travel every year to a former USSR republic, and have seen first-hand the legacy of socialism. Delapidated buildings, pot hole filled streets, rampant corruption, and a government health care system that no one in their right mind uses. Hey, but just as they promised, everbody is equal; poor, that is. When you get back home to the USA, you have a MUCH better sense of appreciation for the economic model and system of government we have here.

The USSR also wasn't socialist. At the beginning of the Russian revolution it had something good. Then after the Bolshevik takeover things went bad. A truly communist society is run by the people, it is a true democracy.

My sigline says it all.
__________________

Quote:
Coexistence with Communists is neither possible nor honorable nor desirable. Our long-term objective must be the eradication of Communism from the face of the earth.

-Senator Joseph Raymond McCarthy (R-WI)

So you hate Jesus too? To restate what I had said in another thread here, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=274017&page=2

Acts 4:
32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

1 Samuels 8, The LORD God telling the people that only He is to be King over them.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=8&version=31
 
Corporations ARE people. So is "the government". So are activist groups, trade groups, unions, whomever.

The state, unions, labor unions, the Klan, trial lawyers' advocacy groups, etc. are organizations of people. They are not treated, themselves, as individuals under the law.

Corporations are.

Were corporations treated as organizations of people - fronts for shareholds - the laws surrounding them (and treatment of wrongdoing, for instance) would be vastly different.

That's why we have a Constitution.
We have a Constitution because a group of people in the past sought to enhance property rights and ensure that the decisions of state would be decided by those empowered by land or wealth.

The Constitution is all well and good, if for no other reason than it is legally and politically useful for all people to have a basic document from which everything else can be derived. It is not the flawless, quasi-religious document that it often seems to be treated as.

Of course, there's a slight difference when it comes to national defense. If someone wants to opt out of public education, one can do so. It's hard to opt out of the basic functions of government, like defense, the system of criminal justice, or roads.
Ah, but therein lies the rub: you've decided "the basic functions of government" - not what you believe should be the basic functions, or the allowable limits, but what they are.

One could just as easily argue, and with as much basis, that healthcare and basic education are equally necessary "functions of government."

That's the problem, really, with your proposed "trade." Say the military flat out wastes 75% of the tax dollars it receives, but actually provides protection for the inhabitants of the United States with the other 25%. We still benefit from that protection just by being here. So you're really offering to trade apples for orange pencils.
Only if you decide that education has no societal benefit (which, frankly, would be laughable - we can see the benefits of education in income, criminality, family health, healthcare, economic impact, etc.).

The argument, as stated, was that public education is unfair because it takes money from someone who long ago graduated and has no children of his own, he has no connection to the school system (which, again is, untrue) and thus has no desire to fund it. That's the crux: desire. Not usefuleness to society at large.

To present a hypothetical - I have no desire to fund the military. I have no friends or relatives serving in it. I believe the war on terror is a fool's errand at best. Iraq is a moral disaster. The military as currently used does nothing for me, in any way, shape or form. So I'm not gonna pay 50% of my federal income taxes.

Is that any different from those who wish to not pay for public education or welfare because they don't believe it serves them?

Now, do I actually believe that one should be allowed to opt out of taxation that may in some part pay for things one finds objectionable (even morally objectionable)? Of course not, that's tantamount to funding the state through donations. A fine idea in theory, never gonna happen in reality. We elect people to bargain for us - that's our democratic system. And we work within that system to get them to do the right thing whenever possible.
 
freakazoid, get Nesta Webster's book WORLD REVOLUTION. Also look up Adam Weishaupt and his Bavarian Illuminati. They were Luciferic at best and Satanic at worst. It is him, Adam Weishaupt, who inspired Marx, Lenin, etc. They, too, were Satanic. Have you read actual accounts of the Bolshevik Revolution? How about the French Revolution? Those mass murders were planned that way. It's part of the Reign of Terror that proceeds the Satanic Elite taking power.

Make no mistake about Communism (Socialism or "Liberalism" are mere stopgaps to Communism - so says Lenin). It's evil. The lies about "socialism has never been practised is BS. If you read French go read Marx and Lenin in the French. They despise the petit bourgeois (i.e., THE MIDDLE CLASSES), the small shop owners; PEOPLE WHO WISH TO DO FOR SELF.

Then go online and read Frederic Bastiat's little concise book titled THE LAW. IF you cannot get your mind around these two authors then you are sorely, sorely lost, my friend.

There are other materials but these two are concise, though Webster covers a tremendous amount of ground in painstaking detail.

God bless.
 
Freakazoid, I highly doubt Esu Jmmanuel (his real name) would be Luciferic so I don't know where you're going with that argument. Those who don't work don't eat. Yes, one should help his neighbor, but not due to threat, duress or coercion. That is Communism and Socialism.

Funny how persons who admire Communism wish to experiment on the rest of us. Why not live in your own commune and let the rest of us deal with the beast that is mis-labeled/misunderstood as "Capitalism". Surely, the "American System" will not support the Communist's goal of a One World Gov't, Free Trade and Forced Integration...
 
Make no mistake about Communism (Socialism or "Liberalism" are mere stopgaps to Communism - so says Lenin).
Well, if Lenin said it, then people who've never followed Lenin (or actively opposed him/his followers, depending on the time) are clearly bound by the same... wait, no, that makes no sense.

Suffice to say that 'socialism' is no more a uniform political concept than 'capitalism' and that even before Marx (and moreso during his lifetime, and even more after his death) there were great and deep divides among those calling themselves socialists.

It would be a task of great difficulty to equate the Paris Commune, Rosa Luxembourg, Emma Goldman, Guy DeBord and the Situationists, Eugene Debs, Joe Hill, Martin Luther King Jr., George Orwell (a committed democratic socialist to his death) along with Trotsky, Lenin and Stalin (two of the latter three, you might recall, had a slight tiff of their own).
 
Forgot to add this in my above post,
And socialism gave us Hitler and Stalin.

Communists and anarchists are greatly opposed to Nazis, greatly.

Freakazoid, I highly doubt Esu Jmmanuel (his real name) would be Luciferic so I don't know where you're going with that argument.

I never said that, and I don't know who that is.

Yes, one should help his neighbor, but not due to threat, duress or coercion. That is Communism and Socialism.

It doesn't force you to help you neighbor.

Funny how persons who admire Communism wish to experiment on the rest of us.

I don't. It requires people to believe in it, not forced to be a part of it.

Why not live in your own commune and let the rest of us deal with the beast that is mis-labeled/misunderstood as "Capitalism".

I would like to but there is no place here for me to live without the government taking money. If I was to buy a plot of land I would have no way to pay for the taxes, and I would still be bound by the US laws.

It is him, Adam Weishaupt, who inspired Marx, Lenin, etc. They, too, were Satanic.

In order to be a Satanist you have to believe in a God, and they were athiests.
 
When the production costs become too high to continue to produce, the company has only a few choices, cut costs in manufacturing by use of robotics etc, shipping the jobs overseas to lower the cost of manufacturing, cut margins, which allready might be razor thin, or close.

The only reason "production costs 'become' too high" is due to the US gov't via the Trilateral Commission and other NGOs incessant goal of a tariffless world where the nations are mere states and the Elite comprise the world's central gov't. Tariffs were put in place to pay for our federal gov't. Tariffs protect US INDUSTRY. They pay for Fed gov't expenditures and it also lowers your Fed Income Tax (I could go off on a tangent about the 16th Amendment, but since so few are aware it matters not. Besides, defy the IRS and they'll eat you). Why would I be eager to compete in a race to the bottom?? That's what NAFTA, GATT, WTO, etc are about. Yes, you initially get less expensive products. Then the manufacturing and production jobs go, followed by a slump in the housing market and all other markets, then YOUr JOB GOES as it's cheaper to just about everything offshore or import cheaper labor. GREED - and that's exactly what it is - is the death of one thousand cuts.

When a Union holds a company hostage as their employees demand a wage that is far too high for the value of work, it really leaves the company with few choices.

Have you seen the price of fuel lately? I know I'd like to make more money - or better yet do more with the money I have. Again, drop the cheap imports with tariffs and much (not all) will disappear. There are still issues within the domestic auto industry and I firmly believe that they'll not do well for many reasons but the World Economy will insure that whoever is in a compromising position will surely fall.

It truly is interesting, no one seems to complain when Japan out-sources their auto industry to Tennessee and West Virginia...

The Nipponese people are complaining!

Check out the website: www.thetruthaboutcars.com I think you'll appreciate some of the feces I was directly dealt with while I was employed in the auto industry... :barf:

The sad thing is that when (not if) the "Big 2.5" collapse they'll take the US Economy with them. Of course, they'll be "blamed" for it and it won't be entirely true.

I wrote a 9 page letter to Bill Ford and Alan Mulally describing what I perceived. Maybe I'll share.
 
Freakazoid, there's no way in Hell you can live anywhere and not have a gov't taking funds. Forget it. Israel has kibbutzes. Perhaps they'd accept you if you accepted Judaism. I dunno. Perhaps someone here could help you out. I'm sure they all pay taxes as well...

Hitler was a Socialist. Stalin was a Socialist. One was an International Socialist (Stalin) the other was a knee-jerk reaction to the former and was Nationalist (Hitler).

Liberty, Fraternity... blah, blah is BS. It's all done by FORCE. IT'S A DICTATORSHIP. There is no liberty. And one is forced to fraternize with the other now-soulless beings who make up the population.

You can judge a person by his/her actions. Those mother...... were Satanists, dude. 60 million people were massacred or starved by them. Read Alexandr Solzhenitzen. They also raped every woman that didn't run from them in Berlin. Those that ran were shot. They did the same thing in every town they encountered/overtook in WW II.

Wake up!
 
Ah, but therein lies the rub: you've decided "the basic functions of government" - not what you believe should be the basic functions, or the allowable limits, but what they are.

I haven't decided jack. I merely said that there are some basic functions of government that are difficult or impossible to "opt out of" when they exist. Education is not one of them, unless we make laws forbidding private education.

I didn't discuss what they should be, or how they should be limited. I simply gave examples of basic functions that can't easily be "opted out" of. You're on a tangent here.

The state, unions, labor unions, the Klan, trial lawyers' advocacy groups, etc. are organizations of people. They are not treated, themselves, as individuals under the law.

Corporations are.

That whole statement is part true, part false.

Corporations have many special rules that only apply to them, not to individuals. So while corporations are "individuals" in one legal sense, they are not equivalent in the law, not by a long shot. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just that you don't present a complete picture.

Furthermore, there are also special rules that apply to unions, trade unions, etc. that give them power over and above an assembly of people. Sometimes, that power includes the legal ability to decide who can work in a certain field, sometimes it includes the legal ability to force people to join and pay dues. Some such groups have quasi-governmental powers, with little accountability. Individuals would be guilty of serious criminal charges if they did some things done by trade unions, labor unions, and the like. This may or may not be appropriate, but many groups that aren't "corporations" as you use the term have legally-bestowed power that goes beyond the cumulative power of the members.

So, yours is a false dichotomy here. I think there are problems with all of the above, and then some. However, it's not the simple "corporations vs. every other group and individual" scenario you make it out to be.

The Constitution is all well and good, if for no other reason than it is legally and politically useful for all people to have a basic document from which everything else can be derived. It is not the flawless, quasi-religious document that it often seems to be treated as.

Nope it isn't. We seem to have forgotten the idea of the Amendment, and instead we have contrasting theologies arguing over scriptural interpretation. I think that is bad, also.

Only if you decide that education has no societal benefit (which, frankly, would be laughable - we can see the benefits of education in income, criminality, family health, healthcare, economic impact, etc.).

It would indeed be laughable to say it has NO societal benefit. Therefore, your argument is meaningless. Every positive thing has a societal benefit. Sometimes, it comes with a cost, as well.

For example, we all benefit from a thriving economy. If we all decided to sleep in, get stoned, and blow off work for a few months, we would all suffer. Those few who chose to continue working might suffer the most, because without much of a GDP, they would have no more food, clothing or shelter than anyone else in the economy.

HOWEVER, if you argue that it is morally justifiable to force people to do whatever has a benefit to society at large, then it would be morally justifiable to send the military to get everyone out of bed and force them to their offices at gunpoint. Productivity has a societal benefit. If need be, we could put people into work camps if the refused to work for the good of society.

I doubt you'd buy that.

So the fact that something is good for the rest of us doesn't automatically make forcing it on people moral. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Few if any people object to imprisoning murderers, for example. The decision will have to be made based on other criteria, though.

Now, do I actually believe that one should be allowed to opt out of taxation that may in some part pay for things one finds objectionable (even morally objectionable)? Of course not, that's tantamount to funding the state through donations. A fine idea in theory, never gonna happen in reality. We elect people to bargain for us - that's our democratic system. And we work within that system to get them to do the right thing whenever possible.

We don't have a democratic system. We have a constitutional republic. That is intended to apply more checks and balances that encourage "them to do the right thing whenever possible." Furthermore, a smaller government, at worst, does fewer wrong things.

Of course, none of this necessarily supports public education.

Maybe public education is the "right thing," maybe it's not. That, too, would need to be decided based on other criteria than just "it has some benefit" without regard to costs, and the slogans of bumperstickers.

Those who want to examine that system are doing exactly what you prescribe: "work within that system to get them to do the right thing whenever possible." The fact that they don't share your assumptions about public schools doesn't negate that in any way.
 
an economic view

Capitalism - Laissez faire. To each according to his abilities. While it is true that we do not practice PURE capitalism in this country, we are one of the most capitalistic in the world and that has led us to be one of the most prosperous in the world. In the economic model, incentives matter. If one does not get waht one deserves for a job, one does not do the job or one goes somewhere where they can make more money. If you do not have the skills needed in a culture, you do not eat. Get the right skills and go for it.

Communism - bleh Simply does not work. There are simply too many needs and wants to satisfy. If everyone claimed they needed a Ferrarri, there simply aren't enough of them to satisfy unlimited need. Unlimited health care? Simply not doable. There have to be incentives built into a system or the system grinds to a halt with no one doing anything.

Socialism and communism fail economically wherever it is tried as human nature does not change. One will simply not work as hard for their neighbor as they will for their own family. I honestly don't care that Grampa Walton cannot afford his Viagra medicine. He is not my responsibility. He needed to take the responsibility for his own life and to provide for himself and to not place the burden of his life on others. If he wanted to be taken care of to the grave, he should have saved up for his own retirement.

Do people have to make sucky choices? you bet. Not everyone can be the CEO of Microsoft, but Bill was not handed that prize. He worked for it. Are there people who life dealt a crappy hand? you bet and these people are deserving help. Should it be on a needs basis? yep. Is it perfect? nope.

Capitalism allows you to float to where you want or have the desire and motivation. You want to be someon, you work for it. You sacrifice and save, make good investments and you become successful. This is the land where you can do it. try that in a socialist environment and see how far you get.
 
there's no way in Hell you can live anywhere and not have a gov't taking funds.

Exactly.

Forget it. Israel has kibbutzes. Perhaps they'd accept you if you accepted Judaism. I dunno. Perhaps someone here could help you out. I'm sure they all pay taxes as well...

I've often been thinking about living like this person named Dick Proenneke, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke Maybe even live with some Amish community. Actually work with my own hands to live.

IT'S A DICTATORSHIP. There is no liberty.

No it's not and yes there is. It can't be a dictatorship if there is no king.

Hitler was a Socialist. Stalin was a Socialist.

They called themselves that but that doesn't make it so. The US calls itself a democracy and yet we basically have only 2 choices, yeah real democratic.

Those mother...... were Satanists, dude.

No they weren't. You have to believe in a God to be a Satanist. Was Jesus a Satanist?

60 million people were massacred or starved by them.

Again, no.

If one does not get waht one deserves for a job, one does not do the job or one goes somewhere where they can make more money.

Unless they can't go to a different job.

There have to be incentives built into a system or the system grinds to a halt with no one doing anything.

The incentive is that if no one works then everyone starves. Just like now, if you don't work you starve.

My main problem with capitalism is that in order to rise above you have to exploit others. You exploit the workers.
 
awwww right....

The tarrifless world......

Take Sugar, for example.... Mucho tarrifs on imported sugar..... We have some of the highest prices on sugar... in the world. Who makes the money? protected sugar farmers in this country are making a windfall of cash....

Oil.... everyone jumps on Exxon for OUTRAGEOUS PROFITS, yet all they are doing is passing on the costs passed on to them from the market. If China is willing to pay $66 per barrell, and we need that Barrell, it will go up in price. Does Exxon control that? nope. Would you like some tarrifs here? make the price $100 per barrell? Only home grown oil for us?

How much more of my cash are you willing to have me part with? I want the low cost that tarrifless systems give me. I am a consumer. I also want people out of this country buying products or services from here. When they slap punitive tarrifs on us, who does that help? The midwest wheat farmer? Just like I don't go out and get skilled up in making buggy whips, the US Economy has to adjust to the world as well. We either adjust or we fail.

Slapping a $2000 tarriff per honda does not do anything except harm the economy. It encourages the very same unions who caused the mess in the first place to contimue the same old hostage situation that brought them to this in the first place. Maybe the total destruction of the auto industry will bring about investments into new ideas, new management styles and a new companies producing cars using american workers who are not owned by a union. Some who take pride in their work, and are compensated on an individual basis, not as a collective hive.

Now, When I advocate a tarrifless system, it works both ways. The other country must open their market to us. If they slap a tarrif on our goods, the same should be done to theirs.

Notice that it is the people in Jappan complaining that they are making cars here.... wanna know why? It is cheaper. Wanna know why? no unions. <and smaller transportation costs>
 
Japanese started making cars here to avoid import taxes, which double the price of the car.

Without tariffs, Sony can dump 10 million flatscreen TVs at below competitive costs for a year and drive all domestic companies out of business. Toyota can do the same thing and get rid of GM and maybe Ford. After achieving a monopoly they hike up the prices to 2x what they sold before, but without new developments. They will then sell inferior products to the public due to no incentives from competition. How do we know companies will do this? Because history tends to repeat itself.
 
After achieving a monopoly they hike up the prices to 2x what they sold before, but without new developments. They will then sell inferior products to the public due to no incentives from competition. How do we know companies will do this? Because history tends to repeat itself.

Another reason to be against capitalism. While compitition is sometimes good for the consumer it isn't good for the capitalist. When the company gets bigger and bigger they get a monopoly on things, the goal to become richer, and then they don't have to worry about lowering there prices. They don't care about the working class, only themselves.
 
freakazoid

While I understand the nobility of the "communist ideal" and its ideal successor, anarchism, you do understand why it has never gotten off the ground and why, given the human element, it never really will.

You also (I imagine) understand that the "capitalism" that you scorn is actually a corruption of what it's supposed to be.

Until you can bring into being a critical mass of non-broken humans (completely sane and rational people), you're never going to get socialism in any of its brands or permutations to work.

I can empathize with the ideal. The implementation details pretty much screw it up every time.

And one of the details is that somebody has to be in charge. And that somebody either begins with power or winds up with it. And, being human, once he has the power, the dominoes start falling over.

Part of it is the simple fact that outcome-fairness can't be enforced.

Opportunity-fairness is as good as it gets.

You'll occasionally see me launch into a righteous bash of socialism. Understand that I'm not throwing rocks at the ideal, only the way it gets implemented. Every time.

So you and I will pretty much always disagree on this, even though we are both lovers of liberty and freedom.

Go in peace.
 
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