Well now BDS. That was an interesting read about the Brinell Hardness Number of modern manufactured cast bullets. I was totally unaware. I will have to look up and see what chamber pressure my reloads will generate to see if I'm getting what I'm paying for. Of course... I also think that it's time to pick up a chronograph to test them against other cast bullets. Then again... im accurate and im not getting any leading of the cylinder throat or barrel so I guess im good. Hmmmmmm.
MBC Quality
- Thread starter blarby
- Start date
- Status
WHAT???? I know you're not serious, this is April fools right? Lets see, lead, if soft enough melts when exposed to heat. You say if I load a light load (less heat) it would be expected to create a leading problem but if you put a LOT of powder in the load (mush more heat) there wont be leading. April fools.
You guys keep making me say these things by making such ridiculous theories. Penn Bullets don't lead any of the barrels of any of my guns with hot or extremely light loads, and Penn Bullets has the exact same Brinell label as Missouri Bullets bullets. SO that being said, either Satan enters my gun barrels when I fore a MB through it or the Brinell of MB's is not what the label says it is because what you're saying is flat out impossible to happen and is proven to be false with all my experiences.
First of all I don't own a Glock, if you go back and re read that post I said the leading in my 9 MM was so bad I started worrying that the same reason a Glock barrel can explode might happen to my gun. That didn't mean I own a Glock but that the rifling of my FN and CZ 9MM's were leading to a dangerous point.
Maybe your lead bullets need all the finessing you guys talk about but in more than 30 years of loading lead bullets for a variety of guns I have never had any kind of problem with leading as I did with the Missouri Bullets; light loads, max loads more than max way under minimum load nothing did what I experienced with MB's bullets.
I might add that I spend a lot of time reading and investigating as I', not one to have more than 30 year experience under my belt and think I know it all so I seek to learn all the time. I have NEVER seen any text stating that these gyrations you guys say I should be going through to try and get these bullets to work without making a mess of my gun. I mean there's another thread here somewhere started by a guy that had the exact same problem I had and all but word for word experimented and had the same results I did. How you guys all shoot them with no leading is a mystery, maybe your barrels are Teflon coated or maybe you don't know what leading looks like but we're (myslef and the other guy/thread) worlds apart and that probably isnt true. I have to think that all these gyrations and try this, or your loading this wrong etc. is a bunch of stories (and it is in my experience) trying to cover up for a known problem; for whatever reason; I don't care. All I know is I had a serious problem as another guy did and you're not likely at all to convince me it's suddenly, after decades of successful loading, my fault. So I'll say it again, rather than to keep posting these desperate attempts to make this look like I did something wrong or don't know what I'm doing to cover this up, quit posting these excuses and I'll quit posting the damning information that you seem to be making excuses for or covering for. Really I have no beef with anyone and I'm not making this up and I'm not nuts. OK? I just found the alloys to be very inconsistent especially when one bullet leads dangerously and another just leads more than I've ever seen but manageable. That tells even a novice there's an alloy recipe issue.
LiveLife
Member
Ummm ... I don't think so.
Missouri Bullets come in 18, 15, 12, and 10 BHN.
Some bullets come in more than one BHN, like 45ACP 200 gr SWC in 18 and 12, so you can select the hardness based on the particular application (powder/charge). Some bullets come in only one hardness (like 15 BHN 9mm 147 gr).
I have shot 21-24 hardness bullets before and had to push them high to near max load data to bump the base enough to minimize leading in MY pistols/barrels. With 18 BHN Missouri Bullets, I can shoot mid to high range load data in MY pistols/barrels and get minimal to no leading. With 12 BHN bullets, I can shoot even lighter target loads with no leading.
My loads vary from light/mild loads to near max loads. I like having options.
Not exactly. Lead, if hard enough, melts when exposed to heat. The harder the lead, the more it is alloyed with other metals. This brings the melting point down. But there is more than one source of lead fouling. There's no "best" bullet. There are different alloys for different purposes, and it's not just about cost.
As for the consistency of the bullets, that's another matter. But the narrowmindedness and lack of consistency in your post doesn't do much for your credibility. I don't even see where Penn Bullets lists the BH of their bullets. If I emailed them, I wonder what they would say? Keeping in mind
And as you say,
"What is the Brinnel Hardness of your bullets? Are they 10, 12, 15, or 18 hardness?"
"They're the same as MBC bullets."
Ok, matter solved.
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blarby
Member
" Obturation isn't needed if the bullets fit right as they seal from the get go. "
Interesting blanket stetement...I think BDS kinda covered this'n, so I'll leave it at that.
As far as the uniformity and quality of the goods offered : I highly doubt (but sincerely hope) everyone goes to the lengths "I" do with my component prepping and measurement. I would certainly hope they did if they were in public bashin' my product.
With that said, if you do : GREAT, you are certifiable on certain days, just like me. Lets compare some notes with empiracal data like those above, and find out where we see differences in the products quality.
If you DON'T : Lets not jump on the chest thumpin bandwagon of how MBC lead bullets sullied your glock riflings' honor.
You might be right. In the interest of fairness, you might have gotten a horrible batch of bullets.
Lets check out your measurements of this product before you loaded it and turned it into your product.
Which bullets in the lot caused you leading ? At what powder weight and with what type of powder ? Was it the ones that were 2 grains heavier, or the ones that were 0.01 inches longer ? Was it the charge .2 grains hotter, or colder where you had the issue ?
Do you know ? Did you save all of your data from measuring your bullets and powder weights for the rounds, and fire them in quality controlled groups to determine where and when your leading was occurring ?
Or perhaps on the off chance did you : A) simply buy a box, blindly trust in fate that they were perfect and then B) jam 'em into your brass as fast as possible to go pop paper, and then C) say they stunk when you got half way through the box ? You mentioned you got leading after 50 or 100 of them. It could have been the third one you shot that started it all....did ya check ?
In this particular area of products a great amount of judgment on the quality of machined components/goods is passed on to the manufacturer which, in all honesty, rests with the end user.
Even a product made to great specifications and tolerances, when used improperly, will produce poor results. On that same note, not all products manufactured in bulk are identical...they just have to be similar. It's up to us to grade our components fairly- and if you see an issue, FOR GODS SAKE LET ALL OF US KNOW : Thats what forums are for
I do believe a lot of your issues can be answered here : http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=581781 by folks far more versed in the pistols than I.
Once I have evaluated the results of my firing(s), I will be able to compare it to the results of others who have likewise used these materials.
If I find my experience with this product differs from theirs, I will be able to locate the reasons for the differences- more often than not I find that "I", not the components are to blame. ( this happens to me in miniature modeling and woodworking as well as ammunition squishing) However, I have found faulty components in the past, and am assured that I will find them in the future.
Thats why I keep notes, and realize a good thing when I see it.
In closing, I apologize in advance if I have struck a harsh chord with you.
I, perhaps in ignorance or folly as you regard it seem to have found a product that to me -and by my evaluation and research- is outstanding in manufacture and deserves to be applauded.
To see my seemingly well reasoned pronouncement of such, in support of a vendor well recommended on this forum; hijacked with unsupported anecdotal, pithy disregard for that vendors current and most importantly in this regard potential customers has noticeably struck a chord with me- and I thought I would share that with you in a method consistent with our membership to The High Road.
Interesting blanket stetement...I think BDS kinda covered this'n, so I'll leave it at that.
As far as the uniformity and quality of the goods offered : I highly doubt (but sincerely hope) everyone goes to the lengths "I" do with my component prepping and measurement. I would certainly hope they did if they were in public bashin' my product.
With that said, if you do : GREAT, you are certifiable on certain days, just like me. Lets compare some notes with empiracal data like those above, and find out where we see differences in the products quality.
If you DON'T : Lets not jump on the chest thumpin bandwagon of how MBC lead bullets sullied your glock riflings' honor.
You might be right. In the interest of fairness, you might have gotten a horrible batch of bullets.
Lets check out your measurements of this product before you loaded it and turned it into your product.
Which bullets in the lot caused you leading ? At what powder weight and with what type of powder ? Was it the ones that were 2 grains heavier, or the ones that were 0.01 inches longer ? Was it the charge .2 grains hotter, or colder where you had the issue ?
Do you know ? Did you save all of your data from measuring your bullets and powder weights for the rounds, and fire them in quality controlled groups to determine where and when your leading was occurring ?
Or perhaps on the off chance did you : A) simply buy a box, blindly trust in fate that they were perfect and then B) jam 'em into your brass as fast as possible to go pop paper, and then C) say they stunk when you got half way through the box ? You mentioned you got leading after 50 or 100 of them. It could have been the third one you shot that started it all....did ya check ?
In this particular area of products a great amount of judgment on the quality of machined components/goods is passed on to the manufacturer which, in all honesty, rests with the end user.
Even a product made to great specifications and tolerances, when used improperly, will produce poor results. On that same note, not all products manufactured in bulk are identical...they just have to be similar. It's up to us to grade our components fairly- and if you see an issue, FOR GODS SAKE LET ALL OF US KNOW : Thats what forums are for
I do believe a lot of your issues can be answered here : http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=581781 by folks far more versed in the pistols than I.
Once I have evaluated the results of my firing(s), I will be able to compare it to the results of others who have likewise used these materials.
If I find my experience with this product differs from theirs, I will be able to locate the reasons for the differences- more often than not I find that "I", not the components are to blame. ( this happens to me in miniature modeling and woodworking as well as ammunition squishing
) However, I have found faulty components in the past, and am assured that I will find them in the future.Thats why I keep notes, and realize a good thing when I see it.
In closing, I apologize in advance if I have struck a harsh chord with you.
I, perhaps in ignorance or folly as you regard it seem to have found a product that to me -and by my evaluation and research- is outstanding in manufacture and deserves to be applauded.
To see my seemingly well reasoned pronouncement of such, in support of a vendor well recommended on this forum; hijacked with unsupported anecdotal, pithy disregard for that vendors current and most importantly in this regard potential customers has noticeably struck a chord with me- and I thought I would share that with you in a method consistent with our membership to The High Road.
blarby
Member
Quote:
Hard bullets need more pressure to seal. Your leading probably came from gas cutting from that long Glock throat with a bullet that was not obturated. You were melting your bullets.
First of all I don't own a Glock, if you go back and re read that post I said the leading in my 9 MM was so bad I started worrying that the same reason a Glock barrel can explode might happen to my gun. That didn't mean I own a Glock but that the rifling of my FN and CZ 9MM's were leading to a dangerous point.
"I experience extreme leading in more than 50 under 100 rounds. There's no way I could use those bullets for my steel target shooting. I wouldn't make it to the end of the shoot and as I said, accuracy goes out the window as the barrel gets blocked. One time it was actually so bad I feared barrel failure as you are warned not to fire lead through a Glock.
"
This would lead a reasonable person to believe you were speaking of YOUR glock, btw.
Hard bullets need more pressure to seal. Your leading probably came from gas cutting from that long Glock throat with a bullet that was not obturated. You were melting your bullets.
First of all I don't own a Glock, if you go back and re read that post I said the leading in my 9 MM was so bad I started worrying that the same reason a Glock barrel can explode might happen to my gun. That didn't mean I own a Glock but that the rifling of my FN and CZ 9MM's were leading to a dangerous point.
"I experience extreme leading in more than 50 under 100 rounds. There's no way I could use those bullets for my steel target shooting. I wouldn't make it to the end of the shoot and as I said, accuracy goes out the window as the barrel gets blocked. One time it was actually so bad I feared barrel failure as you are warned not to fire lead through a Glock.
"
This would lead a reasonable person to believe you were speaking of YOUR glock, btw.
Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets
member
As for the consistency of the bullets, that's another matter. I don't even see where Penn Bullets lists the BH of their bullets. If I emailed them, I wonder what they would say?
I'll jump in here just enough to save you the trouble of e-mailing me.
I don't list BHN numbers and I have extolled on this before and list this info on the site as well as to why I don't list those numbers.
First off I run 4 alloys for the lineup of bullets. I operate my own foundry to blend each alloy for its intended application.
The first is a 30 to 1 lead tin alloy used soley for blackpowder type bullets in some of the 45/70 bullets that I make for that type of application.
The next alloy which has become very popular and has been very dominant in Cowboy Action is a about a 12 bhn alloy suitable for lower velocity use and I rate this for about 1000 fps and I have had people push it to 1200 fps with good results but I don't rate it for that. I use this same alloy for those bullets listed as Target Grade and list it as the Cowboy Action Alloy for those bullets commonly used in that sport.
The next is our Premium Grade which measures around 20 but is very strong and ductile compared to other alloys that measure high but are far more brittle and more prone to lead fouling problems. This alloy is extremly versatile in that it does well in the broadest range of velocities form low to high. This alloy will hold up to 1800 fps and I have had some push it harder than that up to 2000fps. It is a superb alloy that I have been making for almost 30 years.
The final is our Casull Alloy that was developed for the very high pressures associated with the .454. It is over 22 BHN and features a 2% silver based additive to further increase the ductlity of the alloy and prevent fracturing of the alloy under pressures of 65,000 or more. It is velocity rated to 2100fps.
I use this on a select number of Speciality Bullets within the line up.
Each bullet listed telsl you which alloy I offer for that bullet. Some bullets I offer both the Target Grade or the Premium Grade alloy for those that may need a choice for their application.
I don't like BHN numbers simply because they are so limited in what they tell you about an alloy. BHN only tells you how hard something is period and is no way indicative of an alloys strength and ductility. Those factors are what I consider to be far more important.
The alloy is only one part of what can be a complex mix of variables when encountering lead fouling problems. I cover more of this in detail on the website www.pennbullets.com.
I'll jump in here just enough to save you the trouble of e-mailing me.
I don't list BHN numbers and I have extolled on this before and list this info on the site as well as to why I don't list those numbers.
First off I run 4 alloys for the lineup of bullets. I operate my own foundry to blend each alloy for its intended application.
The first is a 30 to 1 lead tin alloy used soley for blackpowder type bullets in some of the 45/70 bullets that I make for that type of application.
The next alloy which has become very popular and has been very dominant in Cowboy Action is a about a 12 bhn alloy suitable for lower velocity use and I rate this for about 1000 fps and I have had people push it to 1200 fps with good results but I don't rate it for that. I use this same alloy for those bullets listed as Target Grade and list it as the Cowboy Action Alloy for those bullets commonly used in that sport.
The next is our Premium Grade which measures around 20 but is very strong and ductile compared to other alloys that measure high but are far more brittle and more prone to lead fouling problems. This alloy is extremly versatile in that it does well in the broadest range of velocities form low to high. This alloy will hold up to 1800 fps and I have had some push it harder than that up to 2000fps. It is a superb alloy that I have been making for almost 30 years.
The final is our Casull Alloy that was developed for the very high pressures associated with the .454. It is over 22 BHN and features a 2% silver based additive to further increase the ductlity of the alloy and prevent fracturing of the alloy under pressures of 65,000 or more. It is velocity rated to 2100fps.
I use this on a select number of Speciality Bullets within the line up.
Each bullet listed telsl you which alloy I offer for that bullet. Some bullets I offer both the Target Grade or the Premium Grade alloy for those that may need a choice for their application.
I don't like BHN numbers simply because they are so limited in what they tell you about an alloy. BHN only tells you how hard something is period and is no way indicative of an alloys strength and ductility. Those factors are what I consider to be far more important.
The alloy is only one part of what can be a complex mix of variables when encountering lead fouling problems. I cover more of this in detail on the website www.pennbullets.com.
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Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets
member
Lubrication plays a big factor in this as well. The reason Fryxell says you can push almost dead soft bullets to high velocities and the bullets that Elmer made for the 44s that were pushed so hard was due to the fact the the BP bullets and Elmers designs had a lot of capacity to carry large amounts of lube. Increase the lube and you can decrease the alloy strength. Veral Smith of LBT fame explains this more thourghly in his book Jacketed performance with cast bullets.
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MissouriBullet
Member
Don't list BHN numbers?
Here's an example, from the description of your 200 grain .44-40 bullet page:
This bullet is made from our Cowboy Action Alloy which features a Brinell of around 12-14 and is perfectly suited for Cowboy Action shooting providing better sealing thru obturation (expansion) of the bullet bases at the lower pressures and velocities associated with this type of application. This alloy also offers the added advantage of less splatter and bounce back when engaging steel targets thus providing an added measure of safety to the shooter and other participants.
Here's the description for the H&G #68:
I also offer the H&G 68 in a Target Grade version which is less expensive than the Match Grade. The Target Grade features an alloy of around 14 BHN that is rated to 850-900 FPS as opposed to the Match Grade which features a BHN of 20+. This alloy is especially good on steel targets as it provides less splatter and bounce back to the shooter on these types of targets. The Target Grade weight variations are held under 1.5 grains maximum thus making the Target Grade a very consistent performer. In addition the Target Grade can be offered with discounts for large volume clubs, groups or individual shooters. Call for special large volume pricing.
Etc.
But nearly every bullet listed on your page includes a BHN specification, Bob, indicating that you believe the hardness coefficient has at least some value, right?
Here's an example, from the description of your 200 grain .44-40 bullet page:
This bullet is made from our Cowboy Action Alloy which features a Brinell of around 12-14 and is perfectly suited for Cowboy Action shooting providing better sealing thru obturation (expansion) of the bullet bases at the lower pressures and velocities associated with this type of application. This alloy also offers the added advantage of less splatter and bounce back when engaging steel targets thus providing an added measure of safety to the shooter and other participants.
Here's the description for the H&G #68:
I also offer the H&G 68 in a Target Grade version which is less expensive than the Match Grade. The Target Grade features an alloy of around 14 BHN that is rated to 850-900 FPS as opposed to the Match Grade which features a BHN of 20+. This alloy is especially good on steel targets as it provides less splatter and bounce back to the shooter on these types of targets. The Target Grade weight variations are held under 1.5 grains maximum thus making the Target Grade a very consistent performer. In addition the Target Grade can be offered with discounts for large volume clubs, groups or individual shooters. Call for special large volume pricing.
Etc.
MissouriBullet
Member
Actually, there is an article on our website that I wrote up in an attempt to address the science of it all.
It's here: http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php
No that doesn't solve the matter at all, what you're leaving out is that when I buy a bullet with a BHN of "X" in the box is everything from "W" to "Z". That is the meat of what's being said here. SO the fact that I buy a box of bullets from MB with an 18 BHN and a box from Penn Bullets with an 18 BHN ad Penn Bullets are in FACT a 18 BHN and MS's bullet is whatever of a poor mix in the melting bucket BHN doesn't solve the problem, it is the problem. I find different leading within a box of MB bullets that pretty much can only mean the alloy isn't prepared properly and made into ingots that are melted into the depositing pot. SO when you quoted me as saying "Penn Bullets has the exact same Brinell label as Missouri Bullets bullets." that means the bullets actually have to have the same Brinell but they don't; that's what you're not getting but trying to explain away accusing me of being wrong. Either that of I have a lead deposit fairy in my gun that's trying to make MB look bad.
So you're saying soft lead when exposed to heat doesn't melt? LOL This is April 2nd, April fools is over. I'm sure if you a dedicated MB fan as you seem to be with your bizarre stories to defend their product, but I buy 6 or 8 different caliber and Brinell combinations from Penn Bullets and none of them give me any leading problems. See to me THAT solves the issue not all these creative stories about powders, hot loads, light loads; I have never had to adjust a load in more than 30 years to curb leading but to MB customers that seems to be the norm which it shouldn't be but that's your problem and I quit making it mine.
Look it's clear throughout this forum that people will say what ever they can or think they have to to defend MB; there are a lot of very loyal customers here and that's your choice. But the other thread complaining about leading and my 2 month attempt to solve the problem making the same observations and having the same experiences as the other thread make a clear case for bullet/alloy inconsistency; stamping 18 BHN on the box doesnt make 18 BHN bullets. I had the experience I had for which there was no solution but to change suppliers which turned out to be 100% successful, and no hokey story about any failure on my part is going to change what I experienced having more than 44 years shooting experience. Really some of your excuses are insulting; it's a problem at least for me. I mean one guy even goes to the extent of switching the issue to his misunderstanding that I tried to insinuate that I had a Glock, what ever that has to do with leading but that I used the potential danger of a leaded Glock barrel exploding to describe my fear when I saw how bad the leading got with MB Bullets. You guys are losing credibility with such desperate stories that are flat out false or irrelevant.
I'll say if for the third time now, stop fighting against my real life experience if you want to help MB from losing more face; You're just making it worse by creating more bizarre excuses and false information, twisting my statements to try and cover up this issue. You've completely lost credibility with me, most of this is a bunch of hooey.
THE GLOCK ISSUE:
This is exactly what I said
Let me take you through it and explain what it says;
meaning the leading in my barrel of an undetermined brand gun was so bad the rifling started disappearing..."I feared barrel failure as you are warned not to fire lead through a Glock " remembering that if you fire lead through a glock, it can result in barrel failure from leading because of how a Glock is rifled but I'm seeing such horrible leading I'm wondering if the Glock failure could happen to me with my FN or CZ.
Does that help people understand so you don't falsely use that against me because I had leading problems with MB Bullets? And please don't accuse me of narrow mindness and inconsistencies, that is an absolutely false statement. I have said the same thing over and over to the point that I'm probably just going to unsubscribe because you're making fools of yourselves with your excuses and bizarre statements.
blarby
Member
" I have never had to adjust a load in more than 30 years to curb leading but to MB customers that seems to be the norm which it shouldn't be but that's your problem and I quit making it mine."
The fact that these bullets are indeed not IDENTICAL to this purported magic bullet you've been using for the last 30 years does not surprise me.
Any data showing us what bullet you are referring to, or any data on the bullets you fired however are conspicuously absent.
"Look it's clear throughout this forum that people will say what ever they can or think they have to to defend MB; there are a lot of very loyal customers here and that's your choice. But the other thread complaining about leading and my 2 month attempt to solve the problem making the same observations and having the same experiences as the other thread make a clear case for bullet/alloy inconsistency"
The expression anecdotal evidence has two distinct meanings.
(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy.
(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. For example "my grandfather smoked like a chimney and died healthy in a car crash at the age of 99" does not disprove the proposition that "smoking markedly increases the probability of cancer and heart disease at a relatively early age". In this case, the evidence may itself be true, but does not warrant the conclusion.
In both cases the conclusion is unreliable; it may not be untrue, but it doesn't follow from the "evidence".
"stamping 18 BHN on the box doesnt make 18 BHN bullets"
According to the Oxford English Dictionary (2nd Edition, 1989), empiric is derived from the ancient Greek for experience, έμπειρία, which is ultimately derived from έυ in + πεἳρα trial, experiment. Therefore, empirical data is information that is derived from the trials and errors of experience. In this way, the empirical method is similar to the experimental method.
In this case, my LEE BH tester concurs that MBC bullets are indeed BH18.
The tool I use is listed here :http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Lead-Hardness-Tester/
Do you own a Brinell tester ? What do your readings show ?
As a surefire guard against witchery , I would happily offer up samples from my trove to assure anyone that they are indeed BHN 18.
"I'll say if for the third time now, stop fighting against my real life experience if you want to help MB from losing more face; You're just making it worse by creating more bizarre excuses and false information, twisting my statements to try and cover up this issue. You've completely lost credibility with me, most of this is a bunch of hooey."
Actually, I haven't seen anything other than hooey from your side of the fence. And no, just for clarification : your alleged 30 years of reloading experience in this instance does not to me generate any truly remarkable feelings of expertise as so demonstrated. If we were to take these numbers ( the only ones you've provided) at face value....you found the magic powder and bullet combination on day one 30 years ago without ever altering that recipe, except to deviate to MBC which performed miserably using your old recipe.
My direct experience, being shown above, is both repeatable and true as demonstrated. I would also like to note almost as an afterthought, that during my initial review i found it wanting in character to disparage another vendor by name and in the best and most fairest difference to our current economy felt correct in doing so.
You are however - in reference to the BHN issue - approaching something that you have both written, and is demonstrably untrue :
Definition of LIBEL
1
a : a written statement in which a plaintiff in certain courts sets forth the cause of action or the relief sought
b archaic : a handbill especially attacking or defaming someone
2
a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression
b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel
So I'd say watch your step. Not my company, my reputation, or my pocketbook you are dangerously slandering about there.
"I have said the same thing over and over to the point that I'm probably just going to unsubscribe because you're making fools of yourselves with your excuses and bizarre statements."
Yes, you have said and left unsaid the same thing over and over : Your "experience" allows you to completely abandon the collection and use of any necessary relevant data that would allow you to back up your potentially libelous claims.
Well......if thats how ya feel- knowing that we as members require some sort of proof before you blast one of the vendors that frequents this board....
I think gramma said it best :
Don't let the door hit ya, where the good lord split ya !
I will post my shooting results here from the range this weekend, once I have those results in hand.
I would also like to note that this thread ORIGINALLY had to do with the quality of the manufactured bullets I received, not as to the actual results of their use.....which was going to be a separate thread, but given that this one's been hijacked a-plenty into that direction I don't see a need for a second thread at this point.
The fact that these bullets are indeed not IDENTICAL to this purported magic bullet you've been using for the last 30 years does not surprise me.
Any data showing us what bullet you are referring to, or any data on the bullets you fired however are conspicuously absent.
"Look it's clear throughout this forum that people will say what ever they can or think they have to to defend MB; there are a lot of very loyal customers here and that's your choice. But the other thread complaining about leading and my 2 month attempt to solve the problem making the same observations and having the same experiences as the other thread make a clear case for bullet/alloy inconsistency"
The expression anecdotal evidence has two distinct meanings.
(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy.
(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. For example "my grandfather smoked like a chimney and died healthy in a car crash at the age of 99" does not disprove the proposition that "smoking markedly increases the probability of cancer and heart disease at a relatively early age". In this case, the evidence may itself be true, but does not warrant the conclusion.
In both cases the conclusion is unreliable; it may not be untrue, but it doesn't follow from the "evidence".
"stamping 18 BHN on the box doesnt make 18 BHN bullets"
According to the Oxford English Dictionary (2nd Edition, 1989), empiric is derived from the ancient Greek for experience, έμπειρία, which is ultimately derived from έυ in + πεἳρα trial, experiment. Therefore, empirical data is information that is derived from the trials and errors of experience. In this way, the empirical method is similar to the experimental method.
In this case, my LEE BH tester concurs that MBC bullets are indeed BH18.
The tool I use is listed here :http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Lead-Hardness-Tester/
Do you own a Brinell tester ? What do your readings show ?
As a surefire guard against witchery , I would happily offer up samples from my trove to assure anyone that they are indeed BHN 18.
"I'll say if for the third time now, stop fighting against my real life experience if you want to help MB from losing more face; You're just making it worse by creating more bizarre excuses and false information, twisting my statements to try and cover up this issue. You've completely lost credibility with me, most of this is a bunch of hooey."
Actually, I haven't seen anything other than hooey from your side of the fence. And no, just for clarification : your alleged 30 years of reloading experience in this instance does not to me generate any truly remarkable feelings of expertise as so demonstrated. If we were to take these numbers ( the only ones you've provided) at face value....you found the magic powder and bullet combination on day one 30 years ago without ever altering that recipe, except to deviate to MBC which performed miserably using your old recipe.
My direct experience, being shown above, is both repeatable and true as demonstrated. I would also like to note almost as an afterthought, that during my initial review i found it wanting in character to disparage another vendor by name and in the best and most fairest difference to our current economy felt correct in doing so.
You are however - in reference to the BHN issue - approaching something that you have both written, and is demonstrably untrue :
Definition of LIBEL
1
a : a written statement in which a plaintiff in certain courts sets forth the cause of action or the relief sought
b archaic : a handbill especially attacking or defaming someone
2
a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression
b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel
So I'd say watch your step. Not my company, my reputation, or my pocketbook you are dangerously slandering about there.
"I have said the same thing over and over to the point that I'm probably just going to unsubscribe because you're making fools of yourselves with your excuses and bizarre statements."
Yes, you have said and left unsaid the same thing over and over : Your "experience" allows you to completely abandon the collection and use of any necessary relevant data that would allow you to back up your potentially libelous claims.
Well......if thats how ya feel- knowing that we as members require some sort of proof before you blast one of the vendors that frequents this board....
I think gramma said it best :
Don't let the door hit ya, where the good lord split ya !
I will post my shooting results here from the range this weekend, once I have those results in hand.
I would also like to note that this thread ORIGINALLY had to do with the quality of the manufactured bullets I received, not as to the actual results of their use.....which was going to be a separate thread, but given that this one's been hijacked a-plenty into that direction I don't see a need for a second thread at this point.
blarby
Member
Also, for what its worth :
@ Robert your bio says you've been making bullets since the 70's commercially. #$%!, thats a long time
I'm not trying to defame your company or product BTW, I've gone out of my way to just stick to my defense of what I received in the mail 2 days and got excited about.
I hope this thread is making both you and brad laugh so hard you snort coffee through your nose, sending instant messages back and forth about how loyal your customers are.
I have bought penn bullets before, for reloading for a 45/70 that belonged to my father. He still has a bunch of the cartridges, he said the bullets work great.
Way before my time here at THR....got caught coming here for pistol reloading info..... see what happens ?
@ Robert your bio says you've been making bullets since the 70's commercially. #$%!, thats a long time
I'm not trying to defame your company or product BTW, I've gone out of my way to just stick to my defense of what I received in the mail 2 days and got excited about.
I hope this thread is making both you and brad laugh so hard you snort coffee through your nose, sending instant messages back and forth about how loyal your customers are.
I have bought penn bullets before, for reloading for a 45/70 that belonged to my father. He still has a bunch of the cartridges, he said the bullets work great.
Way before my time here at THR....got caught coming here for pistol reloading info..... see what happens ?
blarby you'd make a perfect candidate for a government office running on a Democrat ticket. What a bunch of double talk.
Very impressive definition of Brinell but that has nothing to do with labeling bullets as 187 BHN when in fact they cant possible be because of sloppy casting mixing an alloy in the pot.
I'm not even going to bother going through your post of errors, exaggerations and twisted information but to say do your friends at MB a favor and stop posting in this thread so you don't draw even more attention to this problem.
Or you could answer how bullets I fire from MB with labeled specifications lead my barrels terrible while bullets from Penn Bullets with the same specifications don't led my barrels at all using identical guns and loads? I've said this all along and nobody can explain why but that I must change my load but I don't need to change loads with Penn Bullets. Face the tragic truth, there's a problem and the more you guys try and explain it away with the most ridiculous explanations and stories having nothing to do with the issue, the more guilty you all look.
I gave those bullets back to the guy I got them from so if you want to come to my range we'll fire them and fire Penn Bullets and then you can tell me MB's don't lead barrels with egg all over your face. You're done, you're making yourself look like a fool; it's time to stop it.
Very impressive definition of Brinell but that has nothing to do with labeling bullets as 187 BHN when in fact they cant possible be because of sloppy casting mixing an alloy in the pot.
I'm not even going to bother going through your post of errors, exaggerations and twisted information but to say do your friends at MB a favor and stop posting in this thread so you don't draw even more attention to this problem.
Or you could answer how bullets I fire from MB with labeled specifications lead my barrels terrible while bullets from Penn Bullets with the same specifications don't led my barrels at all using identical guns and loads? I've said this all along and nobody can explain why but that I must change my load but I don't need to change loads with Penn Bullets. Face the tragic truth, there's a problem and the more you guys try and explain it away with the most ridiculous explanations and stories having nothing to do with the issue, the more guilty you all look.
I gave those bullets back to the guy I got them from so if you want to come to my range we'll fire them and fire Penn Bullets and then you can tell me MB's don't lead barrels with egg all over your face. You're done, you're making yourself look like a fool; it's time to stop it.
Buy the way I'm done here. This is getting way beyond stupid and insulting to my intelligence. You guys shoot whatever you want I'll follow my experience and do what I want and we'll all be happy. I could really care less, while this is an obsession for you folks. Than speaks volumes in itself.
LiveLife
Member
Lead Head, that's why forums like THR exist - to share experience and knowledge/wisdom of others to address and solve problems so those new to reloading don't repeat the same problem or those having problems can have their problems solved. I don't want to be curt, but you don't sound like someone who is serious about getting to the true cause of your leading problem. But instead, just flatly making some blanket/generalize statements that are contradictory to the results of some experienced people.Lead Head said:
I am guessing here but Missouri Bullets probably have over several tens of thousands of customer base and in the past several years they have been producing their bullets, I have seen numerous positive posts/comments based on personal experience and only "a few" complaints that were resolved. This is statistically, large enough sampling universe with highly consistent outcomes.
Here's a convincing example. .22 LR lead bullet is on the soft side (I believe around 10 BHN). So if thousands of shooters do not get leading in their barrels but a few get leading in their barrels, is it the fault of the bullet manufacturer? No.Glen E. Fryxell said:
THR forum allows posting of shooters'/reloaders' actual experience with particular equipment/products. Believe me, many are not shy about posting positive and/or negative experiences with even high-end equipment/products and how they resolved their problems and/or what the manufacturers' responses were (or lack there of). This is an awesome service THR provides to the shooting/reloading community (probably on a national/global scale) as those in the market for these particular equipment/products will get familiar with how their prospective equipment/products will perform and what kind of customer service they can expect if they have any problems. THR posters will continue to post their experiences with Missouri Bullets (after all, that's the primary objective of THR
). If their experience is positive, then they will post positive comments. If their experience is negative, then they will post negative comments and the response from Missouri Bullets. If overwhelming majority of posts are positive, perhaps it's just that Missouri Bullets simply provide great products with great service.
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blarby
Member
"I'm not even going to bother going through your post of errors, exaggerations and twisted information but to say do your friends at MB a favor and stop posting in this thread so you don't draw even more attention to this problem."
It would be a short list.
"Buy the way I'm done here. This is getting way beyond stupid and insulting to my intelligence. You guys shoot whatever you want I'll follow my experience and do what I want and we'll all be happy. I could really care less, while this is an obsession for you folks. Than speaks volumes in itself."
Sounds like a plan.
Go hijack someone elses thread
It would be a short list.
"Buy the way I'm done here. This is getting way beyond stupid and insulting to my intelligence. You guys shoot whatever you want I'll follow my experience and do what I want and we'll all be happy. I could really care less, while this is an obsession for you folks. Than speaks volumes in itself."
Sounds like a plan.
Go hijack someone elses thread
Haha, well not all is lost. I am now aware of the BHN and have something to research and learn about.Thanks MB, I will take a look at your article on BHN, sounds like a great place to start. Looking forward to reading the range results. My experiance has always been great. Weird thing is... I think I have been extremely lucky when it comes to lead fouling. I would have to look at all the boxes in my garage to see all the brands of bullets Iv'e used but I know my last three are from MBC and I have no fouling to date.
Well the problem is established at least in my world. I have positively fixed the problem by changing to Penn Bullets and I am as assured as can be it's not my guns or my loads as I have posted countless times. So we're done.
As far as me being serious about solving the problem, how can you possible say such a thing except to be putting another defensive spin on my posts? I was serious and still am, I switched to Penn Bullets and the problem is absolute fixed and I don't have to experiment with loads to try and find one that doesn't lead up my barrels with a problemed alloy anymore, I can find loads that I can drive nails with. I cant be bothered chasing bullets that are problematic; my forte is exhibition shooting and steel targets. If you're having good results, good for you. I will keep an open invitation to anyone who wants to watch me shoot the MS's that are problematic since my buddy still has a thousand of them in a coffee can loaded. Then you can see that I'm not blowing smoke.
I am glad to have been able to bring this problem to light so the people who need to find the solution can work on it. Otherwise I would appreciate it if you would all quit spinning my posts blaming this one me and accusing me of being inconsistent and what ever else you've been using to spin my information.
Thank you all for your concern; problem solved.
blarby
Member
"Buy the way I'm done here."
We should be so lucky.
Go start a pro-Penn bullet thread and bash MBC there !
There is nothing wrong with MBC alloy.
Its as hard as they state it is. They stated they proved it. I proved it to myself. None of these 3 FACTS is in dispute to me.
I'm glad you found a bullet that works for you from Penn.
The alloy contained in the bullet(s) you are using from Penn may either be softer, harder, or have different metals in its alloy for ductility such as silver( an interesting thing I'm going to have to look into shortly). You haven't even let us in on the big secret of which magic bullet specifically you are using.
However, your statement in regard to their ( MBC's) alloy not being the hardness they specify is false. Plain. Simple. Clear. Proven....over and over again.
The fact that you couldn't use them in the way you intended is a shame.
With that, I bid you good day sir !
We should be so lucky.
Go start a pro-Penn bullet thread and bash MBC there !
There is nothing wrong with MBC alloy.
Its as hard as they state it is. They stated they proved it. I proved it to myself. None of these 3 FACTS is in dispute to me.
I'm glad you found a bullet that works for you from Penn.
The alloy contained in the bullet(s) you are using from Penn may either be softer, harder, or have different metals in its alloy for ductility such as silver( an interesting thing I'm going to have to look into shortly). You haven't even let us in on the big secret of which magic bullet specifically you are using.
However, your statement in regard to their ( MBC's) alloy not being the hardness they specify is false. Plain. Simple. Clear. Proven....over and over again.
The fact that you couldn't use them in the way you intended is a shame.
With that, I bid you good day sir !
Seedtick
Member
There ain't no reason for anyone to get their panties all wadded up over this. It doesn't make MBC look bad that Lead Head didn't like the results he got when he shot their bullets. It does just the opposite actually.
I don't know how many customers MBC has. But, if all but the 3 or 4 we've seen on the forums are perfectly happy with their bullets....well, that seems like some awesome advertising to the QUALITY {the original topic of this thread} of Missouri Bullet Company's bullets. That is the message that this thread is speaking.
Am I wrong? I don't think so.
If those very few handloaders who weren't happy with their results with Brad's bullets then they should try some of Bob's bullets. (Penn Bullets INC) It worked for Lead Head maybe it will work for them. And, I hope it does. That's really what we're after here. Ain't it? The High Road
We are always saying that each individual gun will have unique 'wants' for what makes it shoot. Right? I have no reason to not believe what Lead Head has said based on what he has posted in this thread. I'm glad he has figured out how to make his INDIVIDUAL UNIQUE gun shoot to his satisfaction.
I will continue to shoot Missouri Bullet Company bullets for as long as I am satisfied with my results. (absolutely no leading in 8 handguns 6 different calibers BTW) I seriously doubt I will ever need to try any one else's lead bullets because I am 100% satisfied with what I already have. I just can't see that changing but I was convinced that the last Presidential Election would have never turned out like it did. So......??
So what's all the fuss about? Huh?
Seedtick
I don't know how many customers MBC has. But, if all but the 3 or 4 we've seen on the forums are perfectly happy with their bullets....well, that seems like some awesome advertising to the QUALITY {the original topic of this thread} of Missouri Bullet Company's bullets. That is the message that this thread is speaking.
Am I wrong? I don't think so.
If those very few handloaders who weren't happy with their results with Brad's bullets then they should try some of Bob's bullets. (Penn Bullets INC) It worked for Lead Head maybe it will work for them. And, I hope it does. That's really what we're after here. Ain't it? The High Road
We are always saying that each individual gun will have unique 'wants' for what makes it shoot. Right? I have no reason to not believe what Lead Head has said based on what he has posted in this thread. I'm glad he has figured out how to make his INDIVIDUAL UNIQUE gun shoot to his satisfaction.
I will continue to shoot Missouri Bullet Company bullets for as long as I am satisfied with my results. (absolutely no leading in 8 handguns 6 different calibers BTW) I seriously doubt I will ever need to try any one else's lead bullets because I am 100% satisfied with what I already have. I just can't see that changing but I was convinced that the last Presidential Election would have never turned out like it did. So......??
So what's all the fuss about? Huh?
Seedtick
I think it's a simple case of not paying attention. My first post made it perfectly clear yet everybody wants to convince me I'm wrong; that's when things go wrong in the communications area. Brad and I had a wonderful exchange of PM's where I shared what I experienced while others seemed to take it personally and blame me for the leading problem I had with MB bullets. Seems they understand now though.
blarby
Member
sigh.....
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Travis Two
member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2005
- Messages
- 115
Yes I believe he does consider it at some point at least in the conversations I have had about it.
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Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets
member
In the beggining I did not list BHN numbers on the site but basically after awhile I got tired of all the phone calls asking me for such. I would end up in long coversations about BHN and alloy strength and ductlity and obturation and proper fitment and realise I was spending way too much time on the phone so I gave in sort of and started posting some numbers. In the end of these long conversations the customer was thankful and placed orders but it still ate up a lot of time. So I gave in on this to some point as people wanted numbers to compare as if that would somehow quantify the differances among the various mfgs out there. It didn't then and still doesn't do it now. I put the rest of the info on the site under the reloading tips section for those that wanted to learn about it.
You will also note that I was sort of " ranging the numbers" by saying around and plus without being precise on exact set numbers trying to give them enough information without getting too hung up on the BHN thing. It has meaning/value but not as much as people think it has or want it to be. Its just one more piece of information in a range of variables. Its a guide not an absolute.
Fitment above all else is paramount. Everything else is second and third and so on down the line.
That is part of the reason I am doing so much custom sizing these days. Customers are checking their guns and getting bullets to fit and getting better results.
Gunsmiths and places like Cylinder Smith are doing a nice buisness in modifying undersized cylinders to make the guns shoot cast bullets well.
I am seeing a lot of oversized 9mm barrels as well and that is causing a lot of problems in accuracy and leading as well. Larger bullets that fit will usually solve the probelm.
I do sit back and take these exchanges witha grain of humor. It reminds me of the days of Chevy vs Ford when I was growing up. I was a diehard Chevy man in those days. Today I am all Ford.
Its nice to see passion on both sides as it were over brand perferance as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. Kinda like the Dillon vs Lee vs Hornaday threads we see pop up from time to time.
In the end it only drives Brad and me to work ever harder to please our customers and they are the ones who end up being the real winners in all of this. We all learn by doing.
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