Merchant / Store rights to search my bags

[Brad Johnson]

Plus they need 'probable cause',

Only if you are the police, which they aren't.

Look, guys, you can raise a stink until there isn't a breath left in your body. Heck, I do it all the time when I see something I don't care for. But it won't change the fact that while you are in their store you play by their rules.

Brad

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Has anyone ever seen the punk kid snake out the door just ahead of the mom and pops as the alarm is going off? Ever see the 'greeter' steam after Mom and Pop because they have to go after someone and the kid was moving with determination?

This has degraded into (and I've helped) something centered mostly on Walmart experiences it seems. But then again, probably 90% of such exchanges do occur there.I'd bet.

 

[Brad Johnson]

This has degraded into (and I've helped) something centered mostly on Walmart experiences it seems. But then again, probably 90% of such exchanges do occur there.I'd bet.

Yup. Last Christmas I watch as they busted a lady for trying to waddle out with (get this) a brisket between her legs! What was surprising was how well she'd concealed it. I had no idea what the fuss was about until this big hunk of meat dropped from under her dress and went "plop" onto the floor. Of course her dimensions were on the ample side.

Brad

 

[kurtmax]

Actually, many states don't allow citizens to detain people, even for 'citizens arrests' without:

1. Seeing a felony or has probable cause to believe they will commit a felony.

2. Seeing a misdemeanor, but not if they just have probable cause.

Some give some extra authority to merchants to prevent shoplifting, but generally requires the merchant to have probable cause to detain someone. Again, 'probable cause' is much harder to establish than 'reasonable suspicion'. Some fat lady waddling like she has a brisket hidden is not probable cause. Seeing the fat lady stow the item is.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Some fat lady waddling like she has a brisket hidden is not probable cause. Seeing the fat lady stow the item is.

Probaly cause for what, gouging your eyes out?

Brad

 

[K3]

No, my YouTube example was about attitude. Yours, specifically (see points 1 and 2 in your above post for a reminder). And, in case you didn't finish thinking through your proposed scenario above, the only way "detention will fail" is if you forceably make your way out the door.

By the way, that 98 lb lady you just pushed away because she tried to stop you? She got your plate number and is on the phone with the police, who are on their way to arrest you for felony assault.

Brad

Do you read anything? Or do you excel at embellishment? Show me where I said anything about pushing away the 98 lb lady.....

Again, pay attention. If a LEO attempts to detain me, I will stop. There is a HUGE difference between a LEO and a greeter. It should be clear to you that I am aware of this difference.

I don't know about anyone else, but in every WalMart I've been in, the employees conducted their searches PRIOR to reaching the sensors. This is BEFORE the alarms could go off. IOW, they are pulling people aside randomly.

Hell, walking past them and telling them with a smile that I don't care to be searched hasn't failed yet. They just stand there with a look of utter disbelief on their faces. I've haven't had to bring out the attitude yet.

Edit: Assuming I did push away a greeter, how is self defense felony assault? If a non LEO grabs me first, I do have the right to stop the attack, and grabbing another person is an attack. You really are amazing. You have quite an imagination.

 

[noops]

But it won't change the fact that while you are in their store you play by their rules.

While there are certain things they can emplace legally as rules, there are plenty of things they CAN NOT just make up as rules as a place of business. They can not themselves commit violations of the law such as Fourth and Fifth Amendment violations, and depending on the type of organization/business various laws like discrimination on certain criteria.

So while your platitude is repeated about their rules, it's not really true. In many states, without some real evidence, they cannot use force to detain people leaving a retail establishment. So, as a matter of law, it's not "their place, their rules," it's "their place, a few narrow rules, and the law applies to both parties outside of that."

 

[Brad Johnson]

Do you read anything? Or do you excel at embellishment? Show me where I said anything about pushing away the 98 lb lady.....

Again, pay attention. If a LEO attempts to detain me, I will stop. There is a HUGE difference between a LEO and a greeter. It should be clear to you that I am aware of this difference.

No embellishment, merely the next logical step in the scenario given the circumstances already described, the apparent disdain for non-uniformed security and greeters in general, and my perception of a generally hostile attitude on your part towards the situation, the store, and the employees.

Brad

 

[Brad Johnson]

So, as a matter of law, it's not "their place, their rules,"

Try testing that in court and see how far you get.

Brad

 

[nobody_special]

Constitutional rights are not granted by private entities
They're not "granted" by the constitution either .

Furthermore, infringement of your civil rights is prohibited by federal law:

TITLE 42 CHAPTER 21 SUBCHAPTER I § 1983
Civil action for deprivation of rights

Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

Indeed, it is a felony for a security guard to infringe upon your rights:

TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 242

Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, ... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnaping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

You do not automatically give up your 4th amendment rights by walking into a commercial establishment. They may impose some rules (such as barring the right to carry a firearm) which may bar entry if you do not comply. But generally, they can't violate your rights or detain you without cause.

Short answer ... Their place of business, their rules.

Wrong. I don't agree to any rules walking into a store.

Actually, you do. Using your logic of "don't agree to anything" it would be okay for you to walk in, grab whatever you wanted, and leave. After all, you didn't agree to pay for anything when you walked in the door.

kurtmax is right. Generally, one does not sign a contract before entering a store.

Walking in, grabbing, and leaving without paying is theft. It's prohibited by law as it violates the property rights of the store. It is not merely prohibited by some imaginary rules imposed by the commercial establishment.

 

[Art Eatman]

Back and forth, back and forth...

Enuf.