Modern equivalent of the "Liberator" pistol (or rifle)?

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Skibane

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This month's AMERICAN RIFLEMAN has an "I have this old gun..." article on the WW-II "Liberator" pistol - an interesting firearm, from any number of angles:

- .45 ACP single-shot
- 23 unserialized parts, almost all of which were made of stamped metal
- Unrifled barrel
- Effective range of 25-50 feet (depending on who you asked)
- Per-unit cost of approximately $1.73 (or $2.10 with accessories)
- Approximately 1,000,000 units produced by the Guide Lamp division of General Motors
- Very few units ever saw service (with the rest presumably either melted down for scrap metal or dumped into various oceans)

The basic idea behind the FP-45 (or "Flare Projector, .45 Cal.") pistol is one of its most intriguing aspects: To mass-produce an ultra-inexpensive firearm that could be used by friendly insurgents in occupied countries against their oppressors - typically, as a means of obtaining a more sophisticated weapon from the hapless "insurgentee".

Naturally, this got me to wondering - Given the assignment of mass-producing a modern firearm for the 2007-equivalent of $1.73 (approximately $25.00) - and the benefit of 65 years of technological hindsight - what would the modern Liberator pistol (or rifle) look like?

If a modern version could be produced for $25, would it meet the same performance objectives of the original? Exceed them?

What would be the modern caliber of choice?

What modern firearms would it most resemble (if any)?

Discuss among yourselves. :D
 
Hi-Points are pretty close, pretty cheap. Put in an un-rifled barrel and they'd be cheaper yet. Though they are semi-auto... I actually think it would be kinda fun to stamp out some new-manufacture Liberator repros.
 
With modern stamping technologies, it could probably be done for less than $25.

It's a shame someone doesn't do just that in a cheap labor country, like Brazil, and stockpile a million (cost less than $25,000,000), and distribute them over the US when and if necessary. :evil:
 
Zip Gun

Modern zip gun.

Plastic injection molding (glass-filled polymer) for grip and frame. Frame encloses barrel and includes molded front & rear sights. Chamber in grip holds plastic clip strip with ammo, maybe 5 or 6 rounds. Maybe more, depending on calibre.

Rifling integrated into boring process; twist rate unimportant, depth unimportant, just some kind of rifling done integral with making the bore.

Cheap rust protection coating of some kind. Teflon spray or dip?

Plastic trigger, simple spring, simple latched pull knob to cock single-shot action. Manual extractor rod or lever, or integrate extractor with cocking action.

Accuracy/effective range expectation out to 20 or 30 yards.

This would be a fairly robust gun with a production cost probably below $40.

Life expectancy probably a few hundred rounds.

Now, if you just wanted an up-close-and-personal gun you actually could make the entire gun (barrel included) out of plastics, save for the springs and firing pin. Of course, that would be .22 LR only.

Good news is the clip strip would hold 20 rounds.

Hell, one conceivable configuration would use a rubber band for the firing pin instead of a spring.

Production cost less than $25. Maybe less than $15.

Interesting . . .
 
I am all for a $25 .223 pistol. Even single shot would be alright.

I've been planing on experimenting with a single shot .22lr (basically a pen gun).

If that works out I may consider making on that holds three .22lr rounds and fires them all at once.

The .223 I could may be do but the fact that the round changes shape makes it a little tougher.
 
I would think the Hi-Point C-9 would just about fill the bill the way it is right now. That's not a knock on Hi-Point at all either. The things sell MSRP for less than $150.00 and are often sold for much less. The cost to manufacture them probably isn't too far off the target price.
 
Liberator in 9mm.....what:, you mean 45 don't you? I mean it was the 45 and the Garands, mostly the Garands, that liberated Europe, wasn't it.

I know, it wasn't the gun that liberated Europe, it was us good old Americans.
 
The only problem I see with saying high point is the modern version of the liberator is that the high point 9mm's are not worth much in my book.

A friend of mine bought one when he was in police academy to practice with and with winchester white box it jammed every 3 or so rounds.

In my book if your looking for cheap cheap then its single shot or bolt.
 
They kinda already exist

Cobra derringers are the first thing that come to mind. They retail at under $80 and I believe are available in 9mm. The other think that comes to mind are those crude little cast sidexside derringers that can be had in 45/410. As for a rifle witht the same thinking behind it both the Rossi single an the NEF come to mind. Las time I looked the rossis were going for $129 with both a rifle and shotgun barrel. As for design I think you already know the answer. Abreak open breach loader like the derringer and the sigle shot rifles mentioned is the easiest/cheapest to produce.
 
A friend of mine bought one when he was in police academy to practice with and with winchester white box it jammed every 3 or so rounds.
Click to expand...

Well, you see my experience has been the exact opposite. Mine has been almost totally reliabe since I got it, but I'll admit that for this type use, the simpler the better.

I wasn't thinking "outside the box" but maybe something like a break open single shot NEF rifle/handgun would work better.
 
For best use of inexpensive materials, my nomination would go to Kel-Tec's small pistols. The amount of utility they manage to get out of X dollars worth of plastic and aluminum is simply amazing! Even so, they aren't generally regarded as "cheap" guns - and the company manages to get decent prices for them. In fact, in my quest to mass-produce the Version Two FP-45 (or -9, or whatever), Kel-Tec is one of the first companies I'd talk to.

And BTW, I agree that 9MM would be one of the more practical choices, at least among pistol calibers - much more commonplace than .45, particularly outside the States.

Aside from plastics, stainless alloys have also gotten a lot more affordable over the past half-century - something that might be used to advantage in improving weather resistance, lining the insides of barrels made of softer materials, reinforcing plastic frames, etc.
 
without taxes or Law

It could be a very nice gun. There was an OK rifle with no wood sold in 1967 for $9.95 retail. It had no serial number. After GCA it cost $14.95 and that killed the < $10 impluse buy which is what sold it. You twisted the thing and put in one .22LR, twisted it back and fired. It was very light wire stock type.

My 1958 Marlin single shot sold for $12.50 and was accurate and is lkely still in some boy's closet working just fine. 1962 bolt repeater, birch stock, was $33.95, in real dollars over $200 today. My wife bought a Savage bolt repeater last year with plastic stock for $72.95, so manufacturing costs have fallen in real terms. A similiar gun and it only cost a little more than double the 1962 cost.
 
Naturally, this got me to wondering - Given the assignment of mass-producing a modern firearm for the 2007-equivalent of $1.73 (approximately $25.00) - and the benefit of 65 years of technological hindsight - what would the modern Liberator pistol (or rifle) look like?
Click to expand...

My thoughts on a single use, disposable firearm.

Molded Mattel-ish plastic receiver and grip.

Smoothbore pipe (keeping costs to a rock bottom minimum) barrel molded into place during manufacturing.

Magazine is straight up vertical. Just-live-with-it ergonomics if the magazine is one with the grip -- would probably be better (but more bulky) if the magazine were forward of the trigger. Magazine spring is a coil that unwinds downward, pulls the follower upward instead of pushing. Think of the Eagle brand of plastic magazine, how that works.

Magazine is loaded at the factory. Not expected to be reloaded, but could be in a pinch.

Straight blowback. Pick your cartridge accordingly. .380 or 9mm Makarov.

Fires from an open bolt. Firing "pin" is a little nub in the bolt (think how the Sten does it).

What's a "safety"?

Cock it by retracting the bolt, which latches against whatever it is that holds it in place, that the trigger releases.

Pull the trigger, BANG. If you've got something that catches the bolt it latches back. If not, you rip through the full magazine.
 
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I believe the classic zip gun of the '50s was made with a block of wood, a section of car radio antenna, a nail, a rubber band, and some electrical tape.
Single shot .22 rimfire of course.

During World War One, the gun makers of the Eibar region of Spain developed a simplified version of the Browning 1903 .32 automatic.
Working from small home workshops and using simple tools, they cranked out huge quantities of these "Ruby" type pistols, which they sold to the French government. (Insert obvious jokes here.)
Considering how easy they are to mass produce, these pistols give a lot of "bang for the buck".

Of course, an even EASIER gun to make is the STEN type submachine gun. A Sten gun gives you a lot of "bang for your buck."
Supposedly the designers bragged that anyone could make one at home, using parts scavanged around the house.
(Although a quick run to Home Depot might save you from trashing the spare bathroom.)

The more that repressive governments succeed in confiscating privately owned guns, as in Tanzania and Great Britain, the more black marketeers will set up simple shops to mass produce Ruby pistols and Sten submachine guns.

A submachine gun factory should be a lot easier to set up and hide than a meth lab, and we know what a great job the government is doing eliminating illegal drugs and drug labs.

The Brave New World is going to be full of Rubys and Stens.

If you liked the "War on Poverty", if you loved the "War on Drugs", just wait till the "War on Guns" gets rolling!
 
The Turkish Mausers a couple of years ago when they were going for $35 a pop. Possibly one of the Mosin Nagant variants out there now. I wouldn't "shoot and dispose of", but they're both cheap arms that do a fine job.
 
What would be the purpose of these? Seems like a novelty to me. Why would we drop them in iraq? Seems to me there's plenty of arms over there already. If the citizen population wanted to fight the insurgency, they would have begun to do so already. Its a completely different dynamic than WWII.
 
PirateJoe:
There will come a time, not in my lifetime but maybe in yours and almost certainly in the lifetime of the children growing up today, when the government will require that all private citizens turn in their personal guns. Most will comply, some will comply only insofar as turning in the guns the government knows about and others will defy the order. Some of those who choose to defy their government will be killed as an example and it will work in many cases.
Still, the modern Samurai - the police - will retain their weapons and the "good cops" we now know exist, will be retired or forced out of their jobs, leaving the law enforcement field in the hands of young, eager, "just following orders" types. Life for ordinary citizens will become less pleasant than it now is and if that citizen should have the temerity to question the law or the tactics used to enforce it, his life may come to a quick and unpleasant end.
After a period of time in which "ordinary" citizens meekly submit to whatever idiocy their keepers require, a few will find a way to strike back. That's when a cheap, disposable handgun will be needed.
The Bible tells us that the Samaritans conquered the Jews and decreed that no Jew could be a blacksmith, lest he make swords to use against the Samaritans. Hitler decreed that no Jew could own a gun and you know how that turned out. Ordinary Chinese citizens are not allowed to own guns... on pain of death. President Mugabe of Mozambique will not allow his citizens to keep or own guns either. Here in the U.S. the government strictly controls who makes, sells and owns guns. Why?
It has always happened this way and it will happen again.
 
The purpose of a Liberator pistol was to allow a civilian to kill an enemy soldier at close range and take his weapon. The gun had to be cheap, easy to conceal, reliable, durable, mechanically obvious, and powerful. It did not have to be accurate, pretty, or quick to reload.

Many inexpensive guns sold now can meet or exceed those requirements, but none are available in the five dollar range. That's a very small budget...

I've seen photos of a 12 gauge single-shot that was basically two parts - a long metal tube open at both ends, and a shorter metal tube, mounted on a stock, that the first tube could fit into. A shell was loaded into one end of the first tube, and that end was inserted into the second tube. At the base of the second tube was a nail, acting as a fixed firing pin. The shooter would aim, and shove the first tube back against the nail, firing the gun.

Something similar might work for an ultra-cheap pistol; a spring and a simple trigger could make it a one-handed affair.
 
considering the piss poor range of the liberator, wouldn't it be easier just to mass produce saps, broadblade daggers, handheld crossbows, and the like?

it'd be much quieter, cheaper, and just as effective.

i've seen quite a few handheld crossbows from china go for about $15. probably cost the dealer $6 or $7.
 
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