Modern equivalent of the "Liberator" pistol (or rifle)?

[hcker2000]

Wow that is crappy.

I will figure up some plans and get to work. I will have to find out if I can find a pipe to fit a 20 gauge shell because if done right I could make it shoot a 12 or 20 gauge. Possibly even .410 but thats not of much use to me.

 

[Professor K]

http://www.onlinemetals.com/

Here's the best and easiest place to order various pipes and stuff. They even stock square bar, so you could theoretically make your own mac-11 type gun. Square is the best for improv SMGs, because to make the bolt, no lathe is required.

 

[hcker2000]

It is a shame they don't sell steel pipe there but I can get that from a local machine shop or home depot if needed.

I have wanted a shot gun for a while now and so long as I can make it to ATF legal specs its all good.

Oh and if any one could post the size of 12 gauge and 20 gauge shot gun shells that would be awesome. The brass part with out the lip.

 

[wdlsguy]

So long as you made a slam bang that had a barrel length of 18 inches or more it would be legal?

Better check federal and state laws. A slam bang probably fits the definition of "zip gun" under Texas law, for example:

§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
...
(16) "Zip gun" means a device or combination of devices that was not originally a firearm and is adapted to expel a projectile through a smooth-bore or rifled-bore barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance.

§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
...
(9) a zip gun.
...
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
...

 

[only1asterisk]

"Zip gun" means a device or combination of devices that was not originally a firearm and is adapted to expel a projectile through a smooth-bore or rifled-bore barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance.

Every firearm I own is made from things that were not "originally" a firearm.

What a stupid law.

David

 

[mainmech48]

The closest semi-equivalents manufactured in recent memory that I can think of:

The Mexican-made Mendoza pistols. Stamped frame, single-shot 'Rolling block'-type action usually chambered for RF ammo. I have seen examples in .22 RF, .32 RF Long, and 9mm rimfire shotshell. Don't know if they were ever legally imported, but you used to see a few of them in S. Arizona back in the day. IIRC, they used to sell for the equivalent of about $10 US in the border towns.

The Garcia "Bronco". Made in .22 RF single-shot, .410 bore single-shot, and .22/.410 OU. Very basic, fairly rugged, and cost about $50, IIRC.

The Sheridan "Knockabout" in .22 Rf. Single-shot, tip-up action.

The Savage 101. Single action, single-shot. The 'cylinder' swung out to load and it looked very much like a SA revolver otherwise. Not made of castings or stampings, IIRC, but both rudimentary and inexpensive.

The 'class' of the bunch, the Springfield M6 "Scout". .22 RF, .22 WMR, or .22 Hornet/.410. Top-break OU with mostly stamped construction, modeled after a former USGI pilot's survival pack arm. About as 'basic' as it gets, but extremely rugged and astonishingly accurate with .22 RF, once you master the rudimentary sights, slow lock time, and squeeze-bar trigger. If they'd actually been able to produce and sell them for as little as they looked like they ought to have, they'd still be around.

 

[hcker2000]

What a very wide definition of a zip gun.

I see what they are claiming though. They basically are trying to say you cant use pipe for your gun. If you use a steel rod and bore it out thats ok because they can't say what the steel rod was or was not designed for because lets face it. Its a raw piece of metal.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Zip Gun or not

So I gotta wonder . . .

If you had a mold and you pressed or injected the proper polymer mix (glass-filled, whatever) and thereby made a frame, and mixed up (and fired) a ceramic tube with rifling, and reinforced whatever needed reinforcing . . .

. . . would you have a zip gun? Or just a gun?

Since the mold is clearly "meant to be" a gun, and since none of the "parts" was ever manufactured as a "part" of anything else, it seems to me you would have "whole cloth" a gun from scratch.

Hmmm?

 

[rudolf]

The liberator was to be used from concealement, so rifles make no sense. Bolt actions are too expensive. And the 9mm is a high pressure round. For a really cheap gun, a low pressure round would be much better, the .45 ACP is the best round I could think of for this purpose.
It is also the best round for silencing. In the end, it would be a liberator with a platic frame. Elsewise, building a cheap gun was the same thing then as it ist now. Nothing really new, except the plastic.

 

[PaladinX13]

According to wiki, one of the primary roles of the Liberator was to affect enemy morale by making any and all civilians in occupied territory a threat to their lives. In that respect, I think the Liberator failed, because- as was noted- using it was practically a suicidal endeavor. In the example of getting a soldier drunk then killing him... why not simply poison his drink or kill him in a less noisy and graphic way now that he's inebriated? So if the risks of using a Liberator are so great, then the populace is unlikely to use them and the effect on enemy morale is going to be minimal.

If you want civilians to actually use the arms, I'd think you need to make some provisions for their survivability. While a suppressor is a nice idea, I think the most cost effective thing to give them is range. To that end, my idea would be to drop "long" barreled guns (from 12" to 20") with simple single-shot actions attached, but no stock or forearm. A small and cheap kit of tools, screws, wire, etc. could be stuffed in the barrel to allow for the attachment of field expedient stocks and forearms (just wrap cloth to make a forearm and any piece of wood).

The instructions would, of course, include operation as well as simple illustrations of how to create field expedient stocks and forearms, the effective range of the rifle, how to estimate range against everyday objects, etc.

Of course, a long barrel does not in and of itself give you accuracy. It gives you a longer sight radius which certainly helps, but the main thing is rifling... which, I imagine, kills your cost effectiveness. If using a smoothbore, I'm told there are hybrid sabots that can get "decent" (sufficient for hunting) accuracy. I'm guessing 5-10 of these sabots are still less expensive than rifling the barrel.

All said and done, now that you've put long arms into the hands of civilians the occupying force faces the continual looming threat of snipers which is extremely demoralizing. At least much more so than the rare case of a civilian on a suicide run trying to jam his Liberator into your side....

 

[nemoaz]

According to wiki, one of the primary roles of the Liberator was to affect enemy morale by making any and all civilians in occupied territory a threat to their lives.

If french "men" armed with tanks and rifles were too cowardly to fight and were not a threat, how could a french "man" with a liberator be expected to fight?

 

[mainmech48]

Actually, the rationale behind the Liberator concept was to provide persons in the occupied countries with an expedient tool with which to obtain more effective weapons. Given the right opportunity, one equipped with even so rudimentary a firearm as the Liberator could provide himself with a nice K98, MP38/40, P-38, P-08, etc. plus ammo and accoutrements.

While it might be argued that this could've been (and no doubt was, on occasion) accomplished by means of a knife, garrotte, or even a club, I'd ask the armchair commando who'd suggest them as viable alternatives how many untrained civilians (of any nationality) would be likely to try it, and if he'd care to take on an armed, trained soldier - younger and most likely in better condition than himself - with one of those, or a single-shot .45?

 

[rudolf]

Of course, a long barrel does not in and of itself give you accuracy. It gives you a longer sight radius which certainly helps, but the main thing is rifling... which, I imagine, kills your cost effectiveness. If using a smoothbore, I'm told there are hybrid sabots that can get "decent" (sufficient for hunting) accuracy. I'm guessing 5-10 of these sabots are still less expensive than rifling the barrel.

Any untrained shooter will shoot better with a rifle than with a pistol. The way you mount a rifle makes it more steady. Also, you can aim a rifle over the barrel without using sights, like a shotgun. Most untrained shooters will use sights in the wrong way. So it's better if they aim with the barrel. I can shoot a single shot shotgun without sights as precise as a good handgun. So a long barrel does in itself give more accuracy in this case.

The rifling is not needed for accuracy at the ranges which will suit an untrained shooter (20-30 yards), as a shotgun with slugs shows.

Last not least, a long barrel will do a lot of silencing, compare the noise of a .22 handgun to that of a .22 rifle.

But still, you won't be happy running around with a rifle in a occupied country.

 

[icebones]

I made extremely crude "hand gonne" style guns in high school. The most cheap and simple ones i made were of 2x2 wood trussles about 2 ft long. I would drill a 1/4'' or slightly larger hold down the center with a hand drill, and a 1/16'' touch hole to meet up with it at the end. I would wrap wire, duct tape and pipe clamps around the barrel to keep it from bursting. a small pinch of blackpowder, an air soft BB tamped down the barrel with a nail, another pinch of BP on the touch hole. A lit match to the touch hole and POP. They lasted for about 3-5 shots before the wood would crack. Of course they had no accuracy and no power, but it worked. Not safe I know, but i was young and stupid. They got better when I started taking shop classes in high school. A 6'' piece of 1'' bar stock replaced the wood, and a lathe and mill replaced the hand drill. I would fit one to a crude 2x4 for a stock, these had better accuracy and a 1/4'' ball bearing behind 10-20 gr of FFG would do alot more damage. Still these are extremely crude, archaic and combersome weapons, but better than poking somebody with a sharpened stick.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Pipe guns?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1nTEs1lUqM

 

[searcher451]

Randy Bessler (Collector Firearms) is selling this one currently:



The price is $1,795, and there's a reserve on it. Here's what the description frm the site says:

LIBERATOR ‘PISTOL’ .45ACP, sn:NSN. The Classic U.S. WWII Stamped Sheet Metal Single Shot Pistol Designed for Partisan Use in the European and Pacific Theaters. One Million were Produced in Record Time by General Motors Guide Lamp Division During WWII. They were ordered to be Destroyed at the end of the War and Very Few Survived. In Beautiful 98%+ Condition. With Floorplate. REDUCED! RESERVED $1795. Item: HG-1550

 

[Palehorseman]

If the idea is to have a crude but effective weapon for assassination or to take another more sophisticated weapon from an opponent, there are simple solutions.

One can go to any hardware store and purchase some steel pipe, a few fittings, and 15 minutes spent out in the garage to make a slam bang shotgun will suffice.

Back in the 1960s it was common for guys to make their own 12 gauge power heads for skin diving and many a shark met it's demise from them. Simple as dirt, was no big deal and worked great.