Need help to I.D early colt 1911-A1 with strange serial number

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silent one

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Say all,

I have a Colt 1911- A1 with a serial number, C 217xxx. I thought the highest number on commercial Colts was C 215018 when all colts were re-numbered to military numbers in 1942. They supposidly didn't start the commercial numbering again until 1946, with the numbers starting at C 221001. How then did this particular weapon have the serial number stated above.? I have had this .45 for at least 30 years. It looks like it's paid It's dues. My late uncle said It was used by Marine Raiders during the war. They were the predecessor to the Force Recon Marine. Any help woud be appreciated.


SILENT ONE
 
That is quite interesting. As you say, it contradicts some supposedly pretty solid information, and may well be an example of "there are always exceptions".

Colt pistols were numbered before final finish but were pretty much kept in order. But they didn't ship pistols in order to the civilian market. When the war started, Colt had over 6500 commercial ("C" number) pistols in stock. The "C" numbers were obliterated, the pistols renumbered in the M1911A1 military series, and shipped as part of Colt's government order. But supposedly the last civilian gun made before civilian production stopped was C215083, per Colt records, and it was included in those renumbered and shipped to the military.

Assuming that the gun and number are correct (note that assumption), I can only guess that C215083 may have been the pistol being produced at that time, but the serial number was out of order and that higher number pistols had actually been made and shipped. I think the fact that the numbering was started at C221001 after the war indicates that Colt may have been unsure of the exact cut off number and wanted to make sure that there was no duplication. Else, jumping almost 6000 numbers would not seem reasonable. (If they KNEW C215083 was the highest number, why not start at C215084?)

As to the pistol's use in WWII, I can't comment. Ordinarily I take those stories as just stories but, again if the gun is "correct", the experts say it does not exist, so where it has been would be only part of the mystery.

I suggest taking this one to www.jouster.com (no registration required) and ask the question on the service pistol forum. Some pretty knowledgeable guys hang out there and may have more ideas. Post a picture so they can see what the numbers and other markings look like.

Jim
 
Hello Jim,

Thanks for the comments, as well as the link. This has me puzzled. As you stated, the numbers don't even come close to the one I have. they are the original numbers, as far as I can tell. Nothing about the numbers has been obliterated, or messed with. I guess anything is possible, when a product is mass produced. Thanks again for your insight.


SILENT ONE
 
Greetings Gentleman-

So sorry there silent one that I can't be of much help,
as I'm not up-to-date on my Colt serial numbers? One thing
I can rest assured of is the fact that if its in your hands, its
certainly going to be a very nice weapon; worthy of lots of
TLC. And with the mystery that surrounds this piece, I do
not believe I would alter it in any shape, form, or
fashion; not even with your beautiful grips!

Respectfully,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
215108 was the last number used before WWII wartime production and the number you have is between that and 221001 when they started making civilian 1911 45 ACP's again. All the numbers in between these serial numbers were 1942-1945 WWII production. You have a GI 1911 made about 1942-1943 would be my guess. What makes you think it is a civilian model? It is not, according to my sources. You are a very lucky person!
 
Say there dan,

No, this one stays just the way it is. :D The grips go on the other .45's, not this one.:what:


SILENT ONE
 
Hi Dave,

What makes me think this is the civilian version, is the "C" prefix before the serial number. None of the military versions had the "C" before the number, as far as I know.


SILENT ONE
 
silent one:

Please do the following:

Field strip the pistol and see if either the frame or slide (or both) have the milled cuts for the Swartz firing pin safety. The safety itself will probably not be there, even if the cuts were made.

Then look on the frame around the disconector hole. You may see some letters stamped there. If so, post what and where they are.

The Fuff's light bulb has gone on ...



FPrice:

Good thinking, but only Colt used serial numbers with a "C" prefix.
 
Hi F price,

It's a Colt, and it's on the slide, and I think Colt was the only manufacturer who used the "C" prefix on their frames. Thanks for thr help.


SILENT ONE
 
Colt apparently did things in WW II that didn't get in the books. I know a guy who has a real Colt SAA with a serial number higher than the published first generation cutoff. I think this is the G.M. equivalent.
 
Say, Old Fuff,

No, It doesn't have the cuts for the Swartz safety, either on the slide, or frame. There is a square with the initials RS inside it, just to the right of the disconnector, on the top of the frame. The slide has a G with what looks like a small square cutting into the G. Also on the slide there are the numbers 4, and 8,.All of this is on the bottom of the slide forward of the
hole that the disconnector fits into. There are also the initials TF on the right side of the frame, just above the grip. The barrel says Colt 45 auto in small letters on the top of the barrel. The barrel lug has what looks like a square with a C or G in the square, on the left side of the lug. It also has a flat, smooth, mainspring housing, with a lanyard loop on it. The slide says,
patd April 20,1897 to Sept 9 1902. Also says Dec 1905, feb 14 1911, Aug 19 1913, on the left side of the slide. The grips are Diamond checkered wood. The mag is blued, and says Colt 45 Auto on the bottom. The recoil spring plug has a dimple on the front of it also. The front fo the frame has been stippled. Other then the info I just gave you, I don't know much more about it, Thanks for your help, it's appreciated. :) Gotta go do my favorite
chore, raking Oak leaves. :cuss: Be back in a few hours. thanks again :D


SILENT ONE
 
Thanks for the reply. I too have an "oak leaf problem" to take care of as soon as they dry out a bit. FPrice gave my memory a jolt (thank you) and now I may be able to come up with some answers. Need to do some research, and what you've posted will be helpful. What you said contained an important clue.
 
Old Fuff, and F Price,

Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate the help.:D Oak leaf raking is done for the day. I broke the danged rake.:evil: :evil: :D Hey, I'm gettin too old for this raking business anyway. :D Oh well, I guess it's time to go to my local gun shop, and check out the new stock.:uhoh: "Thanks again"


SILENT ONE
 
silent one...

"Thank you gentlemen."

You are welcome. But for what it's worth I generally sit at the knee of people like Old Fuff and try hard to learn what they do their best to share with the rest of us.

Old Fuff: NOW will you put me in yer will??? :D
 
Old Fuff,

Just something else to add to what I had told you about the markings on the .45. I removed the firing pin stop, and there is a number 1 under it. also just above the stop, there is the letter H. I don't know if this info will be of help. Thanks again.:)



SILENT ONE
 
Yup ...

Each one of those little numbers and letters represents an inspector's mark. Some are from Colt, and others from the government. Together they make pieces that go into a puzzle. Right now I know a lot more then I did this morning... Slowly we may get there.
 
Old Fuff....

"Da ... And what might you be looking for ?"

Oh, nothing much, just a little something to remember you by.

A mint WWII Victory model.

An all original Colt 1911A1.

A complete Garand with all matching parts.

You know. The usual little trinkets.

:neener:
 
FPrice:

>> Oh, nothing much, just a little something to remember you by. A mint >> WWII Victory model. An all original Colt 1911A1. A complete Garand with all matching parts. <<

Oh boy .... Now I feel much better. I thought you were after the like-new 1941 Colt .45 National Match, and the registered and engraved 3 1/2" S&W .357 Magnum, and the Match Grade M1 - I got at Camp Perry.

That would have upset my family a whole lot ... :neener: :evil:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

silent one:

I am making progress between other jobs that have to be done too. At this point I know that your frame was intended to be used in a USGI pistol, and that it was made between 1937 and 1941. Yet it has a commercial serial number in a range higher then Colt was supposed to have made. It also has a mixture of 1911 and 1911-A1 features. Detailed photographs would help, but I can live without them. I am still digging, but I think I have an answer - now the next thing is to reasonably prove that I'm right.

This much I can tell you now:

In 1937-38 Colt adopted the Swartz Firing Pin Safety which required extensive and complicated machine cuts in the frame and slide. Thereafter all frames made for commercial sale were made this way until regular production of commercial guns ended in early 1942. Meanwhile production of frames and slides for U.S. military contracts continued without the Swartz modifications. In addition the frames were inspected and marked by a government inspector prior to being serial numbered. You have a frame that:

1. Does not have the cuts made for the Swartz safety.
2. Is marked and made to used on a USGI 1911-A1 .45 pistol
3. But has a “C†prefix commercial serial number.

Could this be? Yes, I know at least one way it could have happened. That’s what I’m trying to confirm now.
 
greetings Old Fuff,

Thank you for all the research you're putting into this. I appreciate it.:) As for F Price, ya think he may be askin a tad too much.? :D :what:


SILENT ONE
 
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