Need help to I.D early colt 1911-A1 with strange serial number

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>> Gee, I thought I was (sniff, sniff) family. <<

Darn! Now you've got me going on a guilt trip. (sob!) - I'll pencil you in for a 1905 Hand Ejector/.38-200 with an aftermarket barrel I think was made in Spain. It's in pretty good condition though.
:uhoh: :uhoh: :evil:
 
Old Fuff...

"I'll pencil you in for a 1905 Hand Ejector/.38-200 with an aftermarket barrel I think was made in Spain. It's in pretty good condition though."

Thanks Grand-dad? Do you need your shoes slobbered on now?
 
>> Well, now that we've hijacked this great thread...what do we do next? <<

Actually I am working on finding out about the silent one's .45 pistol. It’s a puzzle because of the out-of-range serial number and an apparent mix of 1911 and 1911-A1 features. Some detailed photographs would help, but they aren't available. To mess up the situation even more, I had to divert some time and energy toward working on a legal case. I was really under pressure to get the work out because a hearing was scheduled for Nov. 2nd. Then late this afternoon I got the word that the judge will probably propone the hearing because of some conflict between this case and another one. So right now I’m winding down while thinking about changing directions. :p

The clues are in the many small letters and numbers that are found on a 1940’s period Government Model. Each has a meaning that can tell part of the story. Often there is supposed to be a matching mark on the frame and slide (and sometimes the barrel) that were stamped at the same time after the respective parts were mated. If a major component is switched then the marks don’t match anymore. “Silent one†had done a good job posting the marks - now they need to be decoded and the pieces put together to make a picture.

1941 and the early months of 1942 when we got into World War Two were a zoo time at Colt. After nearly dieing during the latter years of the Great Depression orders were suddenly flooding in. Uncle Sam’s military services wanted pistols, P.D.Q. The commercial market exploded with demand, particularly from Reserve and National Guard officers that wanted to buy a personal sidearm. Foreign governments were pleading for shipments. Then on December 7th we got hit at Pearl Harbor (I have vague memories of that) and we were in the war ourselves. During that time some strange things happened at the Colt factory that may never be fully explained - and this pistol could be one of them.

But I’ll try anyway. :cool:
 
"1941 and the early months of 1942 when we got into World War Two were a zoo time at Colt. After nearly dieing during the latter years of the Great Depression orders were suddenly flooding in."

I have heard that some of the "strange" serial number/model number combinations at S&W were the result of Smith acquiring a large supply of parts that were used over a period of time, thus resulting in these mixes.

Do you suppose that Colt pre-marked some slides in the commercial manner only to use them in Government orders?
 
>> have heard that some of the "strange" serial number/model number combinations at S&W were the result of Smith acquiring a large supply of parts that were used over a period of time, thus resulting in these mixes. <<

At one time, S&W were making new models by simply assembling different combinations of compatible parts to create sub-models. The sales department was behind this and eventually the number of models got out of hand. They finely woke up and stopped.

>> Do you suppose that Colt pre-marked some slides in the commercial manner only to use them in Government orders? <<

No one who is knowledgable ever says, "Colt NEVER did (whatever)." What I know they did do during war emergencies was to remove the commercial markings from both slides and frames and then restamp them with government markings and serial numbers. The frame in question is unquestionably a military one, but it has an out-of-range commercial serial number. Very strange ... but I have a theory.
 
Old FUFF,

I wish there was some way I could repay you for all the pro bono research you're doing on the Colt. Maybe I could send you a set of my world famous bloodwod grips as partial payment.:D Thanks.


SILENT ONE
 
Actually, I am enjoying the challenge this little project represents. I've been working on a high-pressure legal case and beginning to suffer some burn-out. Now it appears that the case isn't going to go on schedule, and the heat may be off unless the judge decides otherwise.

The grips do sound interesting ... :D
 
Say Fuff,

Don't let them get to ya. Like I tell people, "I don't get heart attacks, I give em''. :D I told that to my last boss, just before I took the early out. :evil: After 38 years with the same company, I just got tired of putting up with pencil pushin yuppies, and pulled the pin. Best move I ever made. :) Now the most stressful aspect of life that I put up with is, Do I want to make some grips, or go to the range, and crank off two, or three hundred rounds. "Life is good":D
 
Most of the time NOTHING gets to me, but this one has been up and down. First they scheduled the hearing for Sept. 13. Then they moved it to Nov. 2nd. That gave a certain lawyer a whole lot of time to think up more things he wanted researched. Then that was called off. Now the judge says Nov. 4th, so I'm back on the hot seat ....

Oh well ...:cuss:
 
Tiz' O.K.

I think (fingers crossed) that this lawyer will win his case because when he goes in he'll be ready. The "T's" will be crossed and the "i's" dotted. Hopefully the other side isn't paying this kind of attention.

He's already set some traps based on what I found out ...:evil: :uhoh:
 
Say Fuff,

I have a gut feeling that the attorney with whom you are working, doesn't have much to worry about with you on his side. :) Maybe that's why the opposition persists in getting delays. usually when someone feels as though they're right, they want to end the conflict. When the other side is not sure of their case, they will use all sorts of tactics to hopefully throw the winning side off balance. :scrutiny: "GOOD LUCK" I always say, "If you know you are right, you can't go wrong" :D


SILENT ONE
 
Say Dave,

I'm pretty sure the "C" prefix stands for commercial. The numbers on the frame certainly look as though they have never been re- stamped. The search goes on. :scrutiny: Thanks.


SILENT ONE
 
The slient one is right:

Starting in 1912 at serial number C-1 the "C" series has been used to denote a commercial pistol, as opposed to one made for the U.S. military services. The military serial numbers from various contractors never had a prefix letter. Colt also had a "W" series of numbers that identified pistols chambered in .455 Webley Auto.

I have some more information that may solve the question. Expect a long post to be coming up.
 
silent one:

Early Colt commercial Government Model frames and USGI 1911 / 1911-A1 counterparts were identical; except military frames had a flatter “wire brush†finish, were marked “U.S. Government Property,†and had numerical-only serial numbers. Commercial frames were given a higher, brighter polish and were numbered in Colt’s exclusive “C†series that denoted a commercial pistol.

This changed in or about 1938 when Colt decided to offer the Swartz Firing Pin Safety as an extra-cost option. This safety was much more complicated then the one presently used in Colt’s series 80 pistols, but served the same purpose. Most, but not all of the commercial Government Model or Super .38 pistols made between 1938 through early 1942 had this feature, but some didn’t. In any case all of the frames and slides intended for sale within the United States had the necessary alterations to the frame and slide whether the safety was installed or not.

Uncle Sam however, passed on the safety, so frames and slides that were earmarked for U.S. military contracts were made the old way without additional modifications to accept the Swartz Safety. So from 1938 to the supposed end of commercial production in 1942 there were two distinct and different frame/slide sets - one for military sales and one for Colt’s commercial business. Unlike today, at that time Colt was the only maker of commercial Government Model pistols.

However there was a joker in the deck. Besides selling .45 pistols to the U.S. domestic market, Colt did a massive business with foreign governments involving both military and police sales. In fact between 1924 through 1942 these foreign sales accounted for almost half of their total business (excluding U.S. military contracts). Most if not all of these guns were numbered in the "C" series range. The second largest of these buyers was Brazil (16,180 guns) and it is toward them that I now direct attention.

During World War Two, Brazil was a valuable and much appreciated ally. Few in this country know it today, but during the Italian campaign Brazil supplied combat units that fought with distinction with American, British and Commonwealth troops during some of the worst bloodbaths during the war. They also became an important supplier of raw rubber after we lost our usual suppliers in Asia.

Brazil adopted the Government Model .45 pistol in 1921, and deliveries continued at least through 1941. They also insisted that they wanted the original 1911-A1 configuration, exactly as purchased by the U.S. Government. This caused an obvious problem for Colt. They solved it by making over-runs of U.S. orders and setting part sets aside to fill Brazilian requirements.

Normally frames produced for U.S. military contracts were inspect both by Colt’s in-house inspectors as well as government employees. The latter worked under “the†Inspector that was assigned to Colt, who in this case was Col. Robert Sears. He served in this capacity from August 3, 1937 through June 30, 1941. His “mark†consisted of the initials R.S. enclosed in a box. Although Col. Sears left the Hartford Ct. area in June, 41 his sub-inspectors continued to use his stamp(s) as late as November of that year.

When a frame was inspected as a component and approved a small “R.S.†stamp would be struck on the frame between the back of the magazine well and disconector hole, opposite of the ejector. When the frame was built into a pistol and passed final inspection a larger “R.S.†stamp was struck on the left side of the frame under the slide stop.

The pistol under examination has the small “R.S.†stamp on the frame by the ejector, but apparently not on the left side of the frame. I therefore conclude that since this frame was not machined to use the Swartz Safety, does have the small R.S. stamp by the ejector, but not on the left side under the slide stop; it must have been made and inspected between 1937 to November, 1941 and was intended to be used in a USGI contract 1911-A1 .45 pistol. But for some reason it was diverted and instead serial numbered and marked as a commercial pistol.

The most logical reason would be that it was set aside to be used for filling present or future Brazilian orders. This would also account for the obvious existence of USGI style frames with commercial serial numbers over C-215083, as Colt might not have considered the Brazilian military contracts in the same light as “usual†domestic commercial sales using guns with the Swartz Safety.

In any case it is a known fact that a number of surplus .45 pistols were imported from Brazil after World War Two. A buyer could have rebuilt one of these using a standard Colt slide (which would remove any association with Brazil), a number of 1911 parts such as the grips and mainspring housing, and a post-war barrel (that can be identified because of the “C†in-a-box stamp on its lower lug).

While this would provide one explanation as to how “the gun came to be,†it is not the only possibility. I will explore one of the alternatives in my next post.
 
Thanks Fuff,

As usual, you're renowned knowledge of the 1911 Colt .45 is outstanding, and appreciated. :) I won't forget your help.


SILENT ONE
 
I just want to take this old thread and chime in that I, too, have a Colt M1911A1 with serial number C217xxx. Really, the only thing original about it is the frame -- when I bought it, in 1967, it had a National Match barrel, bushing, and slide (which was made by Remington Rand). Frame and slide were Parkerized, and the NM barrel was stamped with a serial number, which did not match the frame. Over the years, I "restored" it (at least I thought I did) by replacing the slide with a Parkerized "Colt Government Model" one, and the barrel and bushing with plain ones. I have to admit that it's a damn good-looking gun (now).

Is it possible that some of these "missing" serial numbered frames were diverted into the National Match program?
 
A serial number with a "C" prefix means it was originally part of a pistol made to be sold on the commercial (not military) market. The frame you have was manufactured sometime between 1942 and 1946, and could have been transfered to a military order. Only Colt would know.

Pistols that became part of the National Match Pistol program were marked on the frame with the letters N.M, and barrels/bushing assemblies were serial numbered to the frame number because they were not considered to be interchangeable.

I suspect that you have a Colt commercial lower frame assembly, with a upper slide assembly removed from another gun, and as such it isn't a match grade pistol, but that said, it is still a very good one.
 
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