NJ, Here comes your .50 ban

[Zoogster]

So New Jersey finally did what Gen. Gage couldn't, disarm the colonists of thier muskets.

This statement is more accurate than many might realize.

At the time everyone was equaly vulnerable to the musket ball. Organized troops had an advantage, and also had artillery, cannon , and similar equipment, but everyone was still vulnerable to the musket.

The check on power was in place.


Consider now that most modern heavy body armor is designed to resist the 7.62x51mm NATO round. Some even the 7.62.51 AP rounds. If they can resist AP rounds, they can resist even slightly more powerful non AP rounds that will have less penetration.
The 7.62x51 of course being essentialy our .308 round.

If they will defeat a 7.62x51, they will defeat the 5.56/.223 round fired by the AR.

So the .50BMG really is the last civilian legal US military round that is effective against all troops. A round widely available, chambered in robust reliable military arms, that is effective against everyone, just like the musket once was.
(There is others, but they are not military calibers chambered in combat proven and designed platforms, firing a round in widespread circulation at all levels like the .50BMG)

Consider this chart from Pinnacle Armor on what can be defeated by thier body armor:
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php

Level IV

7.62 x 63 mm 166 GR, M2 AP 2880 ft./sec. + 30-0
7.92 x 57 mm 156 GR, mild steel core (LPS) 2415 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 155 GR, steel case, armor piercing incendiary B32 2850 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 184 GR, steel case, armor piercing B30 2850 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 153 GR, steel case, armor piercing incendiary type 53 2675 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 148 GR, steel case, hardened steel core type 53 2850 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 147 GR, steel case, mild steel core (LPS) 2723 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 51 mm 151 GR, M61 AP 2800 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 39 mm 120 GR, armor piercing incendiary BZ 2500 ft./sec. + 50-0
7.62 x 39 mm 118 GR, armor piercing incendiary type 56 2500 ft./sec. + 50-0
7.62 x 39 mm 122 GR, steel case mild steel core (PS) 2300 ft./sec. + 100-0
5.56 x 45 mm 62 GR, M855 (SS109 Green tip) 3200 ft./sec. + 100-0
5.45 x 39 mm 53 GR, 7N6 2920 ft./sec. + 100-0
5.45 x 39 mm 57 GR, 7N10 3051 ft./sec. + 100-0


Level V


7.62 x 54R mm 187 GR, steel case, armor piercing incendiary BS40 Classified
7.62 x 51 mm GR, M948 Classified
7.62 x 51 mm 126.5 GR, M993 Classified
5.56 x 45 mm 52.5 GR, M995 Classified


The technology improves every year.


So the .50BMG really is one of the last frontiers of equality, the check on various powers the founders envisioned.
Storm troopers can be employed that will resist common battle rifles in .308 and .223 caliber. The .50BMG still prevails, and even at ranges that make it useful in civilian legal platforms (semi auto and bolt action low capacity rifles.)

 

[Gunnerpalace]

/\ All that info just tells me to aim for the head,


But I do get your point.

 

[taprackbang]

...the obvious intent of the legislators to submit a bill to the Assembly floor to ban the .50 BMG.

Why don't we ban the legislators??

 

[.38 Special]

Unless there's a typo in the post, New Jersey is contemplating banning at least one cartridge that doesn't actually exist: the ".505 Nyati".

 

[Bubba613]

Just because it doesn't exist doesn't mean they can't legislate it. Look at microstamping.

 

[Bubba613]

I am told this passed the house today and on to the senate.

These people are clueless.

 

[Tom609]

No, It was tabled and rescheduled for December 15th. See news article alluded to in this forum thread...

http://www.njcsd.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2350

 

[Bubba613]

I stand corrected.
Good.

 

[mike240se]

man i am looking all over the place for info on this! thank you. i found on the nj website "ammendment passed" but then i realized that means they passed an ammendment of the bill, which means they are probably making it less broad "again" but for a second when i saw passed i was freaked! i would like to know how my rep voted, he sent me an email back saying he didnt realize how broad the bill was and was going to take it into consideration, but who knows.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Has anyone written George and told him that incendiary, explosive and armor piercing rounds are already illegal in nj?

 

[Tom488]

Has anyone written George and told him that incendiary, explosive and armor piercing rounds are already illegal in nj?

Yep... I'll let you know if I get a response.

 

[mike240se]

that guy george is clearly representing a gun control group in that article right? I mean, to even suggest the article is objective would make me fall off my chair with laughter and disgust. he is so obviously anti gun its pouring out of his fat face in the picture.

 

[CoRoMo]

i still think semi auto 50 cal rifles need to be considered a class 3 weapon

How many years from now will it be that we hear RKBA "supporters" advocating that handguns be categorized in class III? It seems to be all slowly slipping away... unless we keep a firm grip.

 

[Master Blaster]

Unfortunately the ignorance of our fellow gun owners works against us.

When the last Assault weapon ban came up in the senate in early 2004 I was putting up signs at the .22lr range at Delco field and stream urging members to call their representatives and senators, when a fellow member came up to me and indignantly told me that

"no one needed assault weapons except criminals drug dealers and soldiers in the army"

While he was telling me this I was staring at the 10/22 carbine he was holding in his hands, a gun specifically named in the 2004 version of the ban due to those evil 25 round magazines made for them.

I took down the copy of the ban and paged to where they had named the 10/22 as an assault weapon and showed it to him. After he picked his jaw up off the floor he promised me he would call his senator, and congressman.

Oh well.

 

[mike240se]

we keep putting this hard core liberals in office, what else can we expect? (present company excluded ofcourse) where i live near morris county, its pretty conservative, we elect almost all republicans, but so many other areas vote in this liberals, which seems weird. unless they are all coming from our poorer urban areas...

 

[HonorsDaddy]

x9ballx

You said:

50 cal ban? thats retarded seeing as though i have never heard of anyone being killed by a 50 cal anything in my life. i still think semi auto 50 cal rifles need to be considered a class 3 weapon

Why on earth would you want to consider a .50 cal a class 3? Its nothing more than a rifle - albeit a very large one.

There are other calibers which have the same, or greater, capabilities.

 

[X9ballX]

i said the semi auto
i want it to be changed to it gets considered one.thats too much power for a semi auto gun in my opionion.a bolt action is what i like

 

[General Geoff]

i said the semi auto
i want it to be changed to it gets considered one.thats too much power for a semi auto gun in my opionion.a bolt action is what i like

I'm really, really glad you don't get to make the rules.


What makes the semi auto rifle so much more dangerous than a bolt action equivalent? Do you think that a child will die every time the action cycles?


I don't like single shot pistols, should they be reclassified as class III? How about 10 gauge shotguns, I don't like them either.

 

[Tom Connors]

Let's pretend this bill becomes law. Five years from now, I want to go on a trip out West or Alaska and would like to have a .50 handgun as a back-up for bears. Or, even to hunt in Africa with a .50 caliber handgun.

I would be denied the right to own such a gun, correct?

Although there are other calibers of handguns to choose from, would this scernario open the door for a legal challenge?

 

[Gunnerpalace]

too much power for a semi auto gun in my opionion

Israeli Special Forces use 10/22's to take out people, so power is not a factor.

 

[Crunker1337]

@X9ballX

Criminals don't use .50BMG rifles. I don't think that there's ever been a single case in American history in which anyone has been killed with a .50BMG rifle, even a semiauto one. Ignoring the blatant issue of freedom, there's no pragmatic reason to impose extra restrictions onto .50BMG rifles. Wouldn't help or protect anyone.

 

[50 Shooter]

Keep up the calls, got this from the Fifty Caliber Institute.


NJ ASSEMBLY DELAYS PASSAGE OF GUN BAN!

Please Contact Your Assembly Members Again!

Please forward this alert to a fifty-caliber friend!

In response to your calls, faxes, and emails, the New Jersey Assembly on November 17 delayed passage of A2116 (banning most firearms of .50 caliber or larger) and instead amended the legislation in an attempt to respond to gun owner concerns. The amended bill could be considered by the full Assembly as soon as December.

What this means is the author of this bill is trying to refine the bill so it will become a "Stand Alone Bill" to ban the .50 BMG. This is where they are going and this is what they want to accomplish. We need to send a clear message that any ban is unacceptable.

The amendments are currently under review and further email alerts will be forthcoming. However, no amount of tinkering can "fix" a gun ban, and A2116 remains fundamentally flawed legislation because it bans handguns and long guns based on the size of the hole in the barrel instead of punishing criminal behavior. Please continue to contact your Assembly members and oppose A2116. Their contact information is available here.

 

[Zoogster]

What this means is the author of this bill is trying to refine the bill so it will become a "Stand Alone Bill" to ban the .50 BMG. This is where they are going and this is what they want to accomplish. We need to send a clear message that any ban is unacceptable.

That was the intended purpose from the start. They know a bill that bans the staggering list of cartridges would fail.
They expected such opposition, who they could then present with alternative "compromises".

So the bill was designed and intended to ban just a few calibers, but bans dozens so they can "negotiate" with the bill to only ban the desired calibers.
So the bill is designed with intended compromises built in.

Ask for a lot, and then leave the otherside happy when you settle for only taking a little, even though it is what you intended all along.





Here is a list put together by a poster at http://www.newjerseyhunter.com/article44382.htm on a sample of banned cartridges:

PARTIAL LIST OF GUNS BANNED BY A2116

Traditional Muzzleloaders Banned by A2116
A2116 bans all traditional muzzle loading rifles with synthetic stocks or fiber optic sights – the most common, popular, and safe traditional muzzle loaders currently used for hunting by New Jersey sportsmen. A partial list of popular muzzle loaders that would be banned by A2116 follows:

Buckskinner flintlock Carbine (.50)
CVA Greywolf percussion (.50)
CVA Greywolf flintlock (.50)
CVA Lynx percussion (camo) (.50)
CVA Lynx percussion (camo) (.54)
CVA Bobcat Hunter percussion (.50)
CVA Bobcat Hunter percussion (.54)
CVA Lone Wolf percussion (.50)
CVA Timber Wolf percussion (.50)
CVA Silver Wolf percussion (.50)
CVA Silver Wolf percussion (.54)
Deer Hunter percussion (blue) (.50)
Deer Hunter flintlock (blue) (.50)
Deer Hunter percussion (camo) (.50)
Deer Hunter flintlock (blue) (.50)
Pursuit XLT flintlock (camo) (.50)
Pursuit XLT flintlock (blue) (.50)
Pursuit XLT flintlock (nickel) (.50)
Stone Mountain Silver Eagle percussion carbine (.50)
Stone Mountain Silver Eagle percussion (.50)
Thompson Center Black Mountain Magnum percussion (.50)

Thompson Center Black Mountain Magnum percussion (.54)

Thompson Center Firestorm percussion (.50)
Thompson Center Firestorm flintlock (.50)
Thompson Center Firestorm percussion (.54)
Thompson Center Firestorm flintlock (.54)
Thompson Center Greyhawk (.50)
Thompson Center Greyhawk (.54)
Thompson Center New England percussion (.50)
Thompson Center New England flintlock .50
Thompson Center New England percussion (.54)
Thompson Center New England flintlock (.54)
Thompson Center Tree Hawk percussion (.50)
Traditions Deer Hunter flintlock (.50)
Traditions Deer Hunter percussion (.50)
Traditions Pellet flintlock (.50)
Traditions PA Pellet flintlock (nickel) (.50)
Traditions PA Pellet flintlock (blue) (.50)
Traditions Panther percussion (.50)
Traditions Panther percussion (.54)


A2116 may also ban hundreds of other traditional muzzle loaders whose sights are not actually made of iron, or which contain a scope in lieu of iron or peep sights.
Because A2116 redefines many hunting firearms as “destructive devices,” the legislation prevents the heirs of those who currently own these firearms from inheriting them as family heirlooms.

Modern Guns Banned by A2116
In addition to banning many traditional muzzle loading rifles, historical firearms, and the .50 BMG, A2116 would ban many modern firearms, including the following partial list:

Examples of Banned Modern Hunting Rifles Under A2116

.50 Alaskan
.50 Peacekeeper
.500 Jeffrey
.50 Nitro
.500 Nitro Express
.600 Nitro Express
.550 Nitro Express
.577 Nitro Express
.700 Nitro Express
.500 50 Express
.510 Fat Mac
.6-577 Rewa
.50 Beowolf
.500 Black Powder Express
.500 A-Square
.505 Gibbs
.500-465 Express
.510 Whisper
.505 Nyati
.577 T-Rex
.510 DTC
.550 Magnum
.50 Airgun
.600 Overkill
12.7 x 99mm
14.5mm JDJ
12.7 x 108 mm
15.2 Steyr
14.5 x 114mm

Examples of Banned Modern Hunting& Target HandgunsUunder A2116

.50 Remington Single Shot RF
.50 Remington Single Shot CF
AMT Auto Mag
Bowen Classic Arms .500 Linebaugh Revolver
Guncrafter Industries M1
Freedom Arms Model 555
LAR Grizzly Win Mag
Magnum Research Desert Eagle
Magnum Research BFR Revolver
Smith & Wesson 500 Revolver
Smith & Wesson 500 Special Revolver
Tanfoglio Thor-Raptor Single Shot
Taurus Raging Bull 500 Revolver
Thompson Center Encore .50 Single Shot
Webley Boxer Revolver
Zeliska .600 Nitro Express revolver
Historical Firearms, Antiques and Replicas Banned by A2116
A2116 bans hundreds of historical firearms, antiques and replicas. Though proponents of A2116 claim that the legislation targets only the .50 bmg rifle, this legislation is in reality a sweeping gun ban that would criminalize the possession, transfer, and inheritance of dozens of firearms other than the .50 bmg and the hunting guns mentioned above, including many collectible Revolutionary War through post-Civil War era firearms and replicas and antiques that are not even remotely similar to the .50 bmg.
Following is a partial list of collectible historical firearms, antiques and replicas that would be banned by A2116. It is ironic that many of these firearms were used by early American patriots to win the very freedoms that A2116 seeks to take away:

1842 Springfield (.69)
1868 U.S. Springfield (.50/70)
Allen Conversion (.50/70)
Ballard Rifle (.50/70)
Brown Bess Musket (.75)
Brown Bess Trade Model (.75)
British Officer’s Light Infantry Fusil (.67)
Bullard Single Shot (.50)
Cadet 1869 (50-70)
Charleyville Pistol (.69)
Charleyville 1777 French Rifle (.69)
Charleyville 1766 Musket (.69)
CVA Blunderbuss (.69)
Colt Laidley (.50)
Colt Lightning (.50/95)
English Matchlock (.72)
Evans Musket (.69)
Gun Works English Sporting Rifle (.62)
Gun Works English Sporting Rifle (.69)
Harper’s Ferry Musket (.69)
Joslyn 50-60
Kodiak Express Double Rifle (.72)
Marlin Carbine (.56/56)
Martini Henry (.577)
Maynard .50-70
Maynard Carbine (.50)
Merrill Latrobe (.50/70)
Middlesex Village Long Land
Middlesex Village Ship’s Carbine flintlock (.75)

Middlesex Village 1717 French Army Musket flintlock (.69)

Middlesex Village Cookson Fouling Piece (.70)

Middlesex Village Doglock blunderbuss (.69)

Middlesex Village Scottish Murdoch Pistol (.52)

Middlesex Village 1773 French Cavalry Pistol (.69)

Navy Arms British Dragoon Pistol (.614)
October Country Muzzle Loading Light American Sporting Rifle (.62)
October Country Muzzle Loading Eight Bore Double Heavy Rifle (.85)
October Country Muzzle Loading Heavy Rifle (.85)
October Country Muzzle Loading Heavy Rifle (1.00)
Pacific Rifle Company African Zephyr Twelve Bore (.72)
Pacific Rifle Company African Zephyr Twelve Bore (.83)
Pedersoli 1777 Corrige Anno IX Musket (.69)
Pedersoli 1777 Corrige Anno IX Dragoon Musket (.69)
Pedersoli 1789 Austrian Infantry Musket (.69)
Pedersoli 1809 Prussian (.75)
Pedersoli 1816 Harper’s Ferry (.60)
Pedersoli 1848 Springfield (.69)
Pedersoli Fredericksburg Musket (.75)
Pedersoli Kodiak Express SxS Double Rifle (.72)
Perry Brass Frame Carbine (.50)
Ranger Carbine flintlock (.75)
Remington Rolling Block Rifle (.50)
Remington Rolling Block Carbine (.50)
Remington .50-45
Remington .50 Rimfire
Remington .50 Center Fire
Remington 50-70
Remington Hepburn .50-45
Roberts (.58)
Robertson Carbine (.52)
Sharps 1853 (.52)
Sharps 1855 (.52)
Sharps 1855 (.577)
Sharps 1859 (.50/70)
Sharps 1859 (.52/70)
Sharps 1863 (.50/70)
Sharps 1863 (.52/70)
Sharps 1865 (.52)
Sharps 1867 (.50/70)
Sharps 1867 (.52/70)
Sharps 1870 (.50-70)
Sharps 1874 (.50)
Sharps 51-40
Sharps Hankins 1861 (.52)
Snider Carbine (.577)
Spencer Rifle (.50)
Spencer Rifle (.52)
Spencer Rifle (.56)
Spencer Carbine (.50)
Spencer Carbine (.52)
Spencer Carbine (.56)
Tarpley Carbine (.52)
U.S. 1816 Musket (.69)
Whitney (.50/95)
Whitney-Laidley (.50)
Whitney Musket (.69)
Whitney Phoenix (.50)
Winchester Single Shot (.50)
Winchester Hi-wall (.50)
Winchester 1876 (.50-95)
Winchester 1886 (.50 express)

 

[Gunnerpalace]

15.2 Steyr

Is that the tungsten dart the IWS fires?

As for info, as of many several minutes of using google I found no homicides via a .50 cal.

This GAO document states traced rifles, which for the most part crooks just had:

http://archive.gao.gov/f0502/162586.pdf

Changed my mind I could not post a VPC link in here, those ideas they have are fruity.

 

[leadcounsel]

It's just a classic slipery slope. No significant crimes have even been committed, so it will appear 'successful' b/c after its passage there will be - shockingly - no crimes! Then they can focus on the .40 caliber and greater. Then .30 caliber and greater.

Meanwhile, at the other end, those dangerous pistols keep killing people, so let's ban the .45 caliber and lower. Then the .40 caliber. Then the 9mm.... etc.

Then let's focus on the 'cop killer' rifle rounds....