No Knocks are evil!!!

[DMF]

[SARCASM] Yep there is no reason to have no knock warrants. No danger at all from knocking and announcing. [/SARCASM]

One Broward County Deputy Killed; One Injured ( http://www.nbc6.net/news/3666416/detail.html )

Fatal Shots Puncture Bulletproof Vest

POSTED: 12:31 pm EDT August 19, 2004
UPDATED: 1:49 am EDT August 20, 2004

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- A sheriff's deputy was shot to death and another wounded Thursday as they served a search warrant seeking child pornography, officials said.

Detective Todd Fatta, 33, was killed when shots hit him in the chest, penetrating his bulletproof vest, Broward County Sheriff Ken Jenne said, holding back tears. Fatta's partner was taken to a hospital.

The occupant of the house, Kenneth Wilk, was taken into custody. Other officers returned fire at Wilk, but he was not injured, Jenne said.

Wilk was held on charges of conspiracy to possess child pornography and conspiracy to obstruct justice; charges in Fatta's death were not immediately filed. He was to appear Friday in Miami federal court.

Wilk, 42, was arrested last year when he allegedly threatened officers who served a child porn warrant at the home. And Wilk's roommate, Kelly Ray Jones, was arrested last month on charges of using the Internet to send illicit images of children to an undercover detective -- a violation of his federal probation. Jones, who already was a registered sex offender, remains jailed.

Broward County sheriff's officials said the undercover detective who received the photos on the computer was the same investigator who arrested Jones in March 2001 on six counts of child pornography.

"Mr. Wilk was bragging we had not found all of the child pornography" after Jones' most recent arrest, Jenne said.

Fatta and Sgt. Angelo Cedeno, both part of a multi-agency anti-porn task force, returned Thursday to find the additional material, Jenne said. Fatta had been with the sheriff's office for nine years, and Cedeno for 15.

Wilk, the only person in the house Thursday, refused to come outside to receive the warrant, and fired at the deputies after they entered the house, Jenne said. He said Wilk had several high-caliber weapons around the house.

Cedeno, 36, was wounded in the hand and shoulder and underwent surgery at North Broward Medical Center. He was in stable condition, the sheriff's department said.

Phil Roccapiore, 49, said he heard shouting and "a barrage of shots" -- and saw an officer with his gun drawn on the side of Wilk's house. A plainclothes officer crouched behind a car yelled for him to go back inside, Roccapiore said.

Roccapiore, who has a 16-year-old son and 21/2-year-old nephew, pointed to a 2001 newspaper article on Jones' 2001 arrest. "I'm still in shock that an officer had to die over this," he said.

Wilk wasn't a drug dealing gang banger, never had a violent crime arrest, and wasn't a murderer until the day cops showed up with a SEARCH warrant for child porn.

I pity the devil the day Wilk and his kind start arriving in bunches.

 

[Beren]

We need to ban hunting rifles. There is no place in America for these weapons of destruction, these tools used to wage war against our police.

The bullet that killed Fatta came from a .30-30 hunting rifle. It passed right through his bullet-proof vest, which is designed to handle slugs from hand guns but not much more.

http://www.local10.com/news/3669496/detail.html

 

[FedDC]

Didn't you hear? We are supposed to expect death on the job and if we don't like it, we should find another job. Better for us to get killed, than to piss off a citizen by cuffing them or breaking down their door before breakfast.

Sarcasm Off

Crap like this is not uncommon. Memphis had a policy (And may still have) that said prior to entry on a warrant, they had to park a marked squad in front of the house with the lights and siren going. A few months back, two separate raid teams (one PD, one SD) got shot up badly before they could even get in and what do you think was the reason? The suspects had time to get to a gun and get ready for the entry team. In one case, the suspect shot officers through the wall on the porch before they even touched the door... Giving away not only the element of surprise, but also the initiative is borderline suicidal. It is like waiting for someone to shoot at you before you shoot at them...a great way to die first.

It is a tragedy that a good man lost his life to a pedophile scumbag. May the officer rest in peace and his killer burn in hell.

 

[manwithoutahome]

I think that we just need to become a police state, no BoR's or Constitution, and that the people need to be disarmed.

This way, no LEO's will be hurt.

It's for the cops.

The way I see it Fed and DMF, you are just as bad as the pols. From reading your posts, and those of Steve in PA and Lilysdad, all LEO's should have absolute power over the People and deep down I truly believe that you and the others would greatly welcome a police state and total "civilian" disarmament.

You may say otherwise but then I would be assuming that someone is posting under your names.

Please prove me wrong. I am actually asking you to show the "civilians" that you don't want a total police state or disarmament because that is the way we are feeling. Almost like, too bad for the civilians, cops are more important so we demand that we are made above the law.

Right now, you guys (and gals?) are sounding like you're the enemy and not the law abiding CITIZENS that you are.

As I had said before, you should be able to do your jobs but not at the lost of Rights to the People (those you call "civilians"). To say damn the "civilians" Rights so we can go home makes you the same or even worse than the Nazi's before you. Worse because there are alot of "civilians" whom trust you to do the right thing by them and to treat them with respect and with all Rights afforded a member of the United States (legally).

Right now, I am getting very disappointed and even angry at the attitudes that you and every other LEO on this board is giving us, the People. You're lucky that I am not the owner of this board because most of you are just trolling, getting people upset with you, and from what I've read in the Rules of the Board, this is a banable offense.

So, please, prove me wrong.

Thank you.

Wayne

 

[FedDC]

Wow, there's that NAZI word again. It seems to me that more and more, when a person has no knowledge of history and has never actually been to a concentration camp or even to the holocaust museum, they like to use that word freely. I find that insulting, not to me as an LEO, but to the 7 or so million people that were systematically exterminated and tortured by one of the most deeply evil groups of people to ever breath air.

Please do some research or take a history class and you will see what true Nazism is about. If you can't attack the argument, don't argue.

 

[yorick]

I'm not quite sure what all the outrage is about - those who break and enter should expect to be shot at - police included - not saying the creep didn't deserve to be arrested -

But realistically - you gotta figure that criminals will probably resist a 'knock' warrant - and then the occcaisional innocent might defend themselves if barged in on in a no-knock. So what's the correct answer?

FEDDC - it sounds to me like you think all warrants should be served no-knock - with flashbangs and a heavily armed dynamic entry team. Is that really what we want our country to look like? Should we use dynamic entry for serving unpaid parking tickets and building code violations if the guy is a "known gun owner" too?

I think the whole concept of when it is appropriate to arrest a person in thier home needs to be re-examined. I do know that if I were a cop, I'd sure want to find another way to effect the arrest.

(But that's not as much fun for testosterone charged mental adolescents with delusions of grandeur)

If the shoe fits......

 

[EricOKC]

FedDC

you said:

Didn't you hear? We are supposed to expect death on the job and if we don't like it, we should find another job. Better for us to get killed, than to piss off a citizen by cuffing them or breaking down their door before breakfast.

To some degree, that is correct. I would change the phrasing on that to say it is better you are killed on the job then a citizen, who's rights you are paid and sworn to uphold, have his rights trampled on because YOU want your job to be easier.

 

[FedDC]

Guess what? It wasn't an arrest warrant. Do you know what kind of warrant it was and what the difference is? Read before commenting.

 

[thefitzvh]

THey're right man... by bringing the NAZI word into it, you really killed your entire argument


However, DMF, et al... just because you're in a dangerous job doesn't mean that you have any right to infringe my rights. What's next? a no-knock for marijuana? Oh, wait...

The simple fact is that a no-knock is stupid, unfair, and dangerous for the officers AND the person involved.

If I woke up in the middle of the night to someone invading my home unannounced... it's a no brainer. I'd have my guns blazing

You guys aren't better than us.... and I hope for your sake you figure it out soon.

 

[FedDC]

If you want to pay me to knowingly get killed, you better break out your check book bigtime. Nowhere in any SOP or even in the Constitution does it say that it is the duty of LEOs to die on the job. Even the USSC has ruled that we as LEOs have an expectation of safety and can take steps we feel are needed to ensure that safety.

 

[thefitzvh]

You're missing the point... I'm not saying it's your job to get killed... I'm saying that you have NO RIGHT to infringe MY RIGHTS to keep yourself safe.

 

[yorick]

I suspect that 'FedDC' isn't really a LEO - probably isn't even shaving regularily yet.

Not a personal attack - just an opinion based on his posts.

 

[FedDC]

Believe as you will, We don't have our thought police section up and running just yet (That was a joke)

 

[EricOKC]

FedDC:

Wow, there's that NAZI word again. It seems to me that more and more, when a person has no knowledge of history and has never actually been to a concentration camp or even to the holocaust museum, they like to use that word freely. I find that insulting, not to me as an LEO, but to the 7 or so million people that were systematically exterminated and tortured by one of the most deeply evil groups of people to ever breath air.

Please do some research or take a history class and you will see what true Nazism is about. If you can't attack the argument, don't argue.

I HAVE been to a concentration camp, Dachau to be specific, more than a few "holocaust museums", and had the (mis)fortune to experience the effects of a police state first hand. Just a taste mind you, but enough to realize that what happened there - specifically East Germany - IS happening here. Also had an old and dear family friend who had been a "guest" of the German army. I can tell you the numbers which were on his arm if you like.

It is people like you, who seem to think you are above the law, that LEO's can do no wrong, who feel every "civilian" is merely a criminal who has not yet been caught, and who believe (wrongly) that their desire to go home at the end of the day trumps everyone else's rights who have caused the destructive "us-v-them" rift that exists between police and everyone else. YOU have the "police state" mentality. WE are merely responding to it.

 

[Sindawe]

FedDC said:

We are supposed to expect death on the job and if we don't like it, we should find another job.

No, not expect death, but understand its one of the risks of that profession. Some jobs are just riskier than others, simple fact of life dude. I ran risk of serious injury, disfigurment and death on my previous career. I knew the risks when I started at the job, and accepted 'em along with the benifits/perks of the job. When I no longer found the plusses outweighing the minuses, I changed careers and left.

 

[FedDC]

Actually, the USSC would beg to differ as would I. People's Rights are temporarily removed every time they are arrested and awaiting trial. After all, they have not been tried and convicted, yet they are not free... The world is not as simple as that.

 

[cordex]

Okay, officers - what's your solution? Obviously the only important issue is police security, so to what extent should we take that? You imply that this would be a good time for a "no-knock" style warrant service, so that's where we can start from. What other powers would you like?

Seriously, I'm interested in how you think this sort of thing should be prevented.

Please do some research or take a history class and you will see what true Nazism is about. If you can't attack the argument, don't argue.

Not to lend any support to labeling police Nazis, but I note that anyone who has done enough research to suggest that others are deficient in their learning would be well aware that the Nazis didn't start out by gassing select subsets of their population.
Symptoms don't always mean you have the disease, but ignoring them is a good way to let things get too far.

 

[thefitzvh]

You're friggin hopeless... i'm done with this thread. We all know that the USSC does no wrong, correct?

One of these days, you'll get your awakening. Enjoy.

 

[EricOKC]

Actually, the USSC would beg to differ as would I. People's Rights are temporarily removed every time they are arrested and awaiting trial. After all, they have not been tried and convicted, yet they are not free... The world is not as simple as that.

Thats correct - ARRESTED AND AWAITING TRIAL. Until that time, you are obligated, morally ethically and legally, to uphold their rights. The process of serving a search warrant does NOT change that. As you pointed out - it wasnt an ARREST warrant - it was a SEARCH warrant.

You have been asked many times what you would do in a similar situation and you have not yet responded.

 

[DMF]

You're missing the point... I'm not saying it's your job to get killed... I'm saying that you have NO RIGHT to infringe MY RIGHTS to keep yourself safe.

Explain to me how serving a valid warrant signed by the magistrate judge infringes on anyone's rights. The 4th Amendment says that if the government establishes PC, and the judge signs the warrant then there is no infringement of rights to conduct the search.

For those that wish to paint me as a thug looking to infringe on your rights, I don't know where you get that idea. On the thread about the off duty deputy getting shot, I stated that there was not enough info to determine if the shooting was justified or not, and that I felt we should wait for the facts. Regarding yeterday's thread about the ruling on the AZ warrant, I said it was tough to understand the judge's ruling because there weren't enough facts presented. Several times I have stated that I am in favor of private gun ownership.

So you tell me where I've said anything that suggests I'm looking to infringe on your rights.

My point in posting this thread was to show that service of warrants is not as simple and easy as many here would like to pretend.

Regarding this:

The simple fact is that a no-knock is stupid, unfair, and dangerous for the officers AND the person involved.

This was NOT a no-knock and look what happened. Lots of violence. The purpose of no-knocks is to use surprise and speed to minimize the chance of violence. It actually makes things SAFER for everyone involved including the subject of the warrant.

 

[EricOKC]

Since no one has yet asked the obvious question, I will:

To all the LEO's here, what exactly is the problem with being polite, courteously identifying yourself, and making sure the homeowner is aware of what exactly is going to happen? What is the problem with politely knocking on the door, waiting for the person to come to the door, politely identifying yourself as a police officer and telling them you have a warrant?

Granted, this doesnt work in ALL situations, and you should be ready for the possible attempt by the person in the house to leave through alternative exits, but it doesnt change the fact that you could treat him with respect.

 

[DMF]

I would change the phrasing on that to say it is better you are killed on the job then a citizen, who's rights you are paid and sworn to uphold, have his rights trampled on because YOU want your job to be easier.

Wait just a minute there, cops are citizens too. So why are you making this an us v. them issue, by using those labels, and saying one type of citizen's life is more valuable than another?

 

[cordex]

DMF,
So what would you change? Would you give police the authority to execute no-knocks whenever they feel like it?

You claim they're safer, so why not execute every warrant using SWAT raids?

 

[EricOKC]

Wait just a minute there, cops are citizens too. So why are you making this an us v. them issue, by using those labels, and saying one type of citizen's life is more valuable than another?

When you are on duty you are NOT a citizen - you are acting as an agent of the state, so yes, in that case my rights are more important than yours.

I didnt mean to make it sound like an LEO-v-everyone else thing. I guess I did phrase that incorrectly.

 

[thefitzvh]

Explain to me how serving a valid warrant signed by the magistrate judge infringes on anyone's rights.

I wasn't talking about THIS serving, I was talking about the suggestion that a no knock would be a better idea.

This was NOT a no-knock and look what happened. Lots of violence. The purpose of no-knocks is to use surprise and speed to minimize the chance of violence. It actually makes things SAFER for everyone involved including the subject of the warrant.

I KNOW this was not a no knock. EVERYONE HEAR THAT??


I KNOW THIS WASN'T A NO KNOCK.

The point of this thread was for the poster to suggest that a no knock would have been appropriate here. I disagree.

However, point taken regarding speed minimizing the chance of violence. That's probably not the case ALL the time though .I still have a bad taste in my mouth about no knocks, but that's definately a true statement