No Knocks are evil!!!

[pinblaster]

Come up with a good way to serve a warrant

Here's an idea . Approach the suspect at work , on the street , in a bar or whatever , show them the warrant and take them to thier home and execute the search warrant .

 

[EricOKC]

pinblaster:

Unnecessrily rude cite removed by Art

DMF doesnt qualify as a JBT. Don't lump him in that category. Sheilds529 seems OK too.

And Art removes an unnecessary comment about another member.

 

[thefitzvh]

Art wuz here, aussi...

FedDC may be a little quick to defend other officers when they screw up, but given his posts on this thread, I don't think that qualifies

 

[EricOKC]

DMF:

You said:

No it's not really like that. We are required to test our informants for reliability, and credibility. I will spend months with an informant, thoroughly documenting all our meetings, and phone calls, and every way he has been tested, before I would ever consider using anything he says to justify a warrant. Also, magistrates will scrutinize thoroughly what the informant says, and the material used to establish credibility. Also, magistrates will rarely sign a warrant based solely on one informants information. They seek corroboration.

. . . and that's the way it is now-a-days

Considering the documented cases of people who have had their lives destroyed, and in many cases ended, due to ANONYMOUS informants, let alone paid ones, there is ample reason to have the opinon pinblaster expressed.

Do I REALLY have to go and dig up news examples or are you going to at least admit some departments have some real problems understanding how to ascertain the reliability of a tip?

 

[EricOKC]

thefitzvh

I don't think that's a fair statement. FedDC may be a little quick to defend other officers when they screw up, but given his posts on this thread, I don't think that qualifies

Yes it is. He's stated previously that a private citizen is nothing more than a criminal who has not yet been caught. Until that is recanted I can only conclude he considers all non-LEO's to be lower life-forms to be controlled rather than the citizens he serves (and incidentally pay his salary)

And Art removes Bad Stuff.

 

[thefitzvh]

post a link, i never saw that

 

[Brett Bellmore]

Explain to me how serving a valid warrant signed by the magistrate judge infringes on anyone's rights.

It doesn't. But no knock searches aren't "serving" warrants, they're just executing them.

Look, the warrant has TWO purposes: First, discouraging unjustified searches by requring a third party to sign off on the legitimacy of the reasons for the search. And, second, to prove to the person being searched that you actually DID get a warrant!

Break into a person's home without proving to them that you've got a warrant first, and you've set up a situation where they can legitimately treat you as home invaders, and defend themselves with lethal force. LEGITIMATELY, mind you. Because they're acting on the basis of the knowlege they have, and you've denied them any way of knowing you're there legally, while giving them every reason to doubt it.

If you come up with a good way to for me to serve the warrant while 100% eliminating that rare, but real, possibility I'd love to hear it.

Sure. Don't do no-knock searchs. Gangbangers aren't going to wait for the home owner to call the local police department and confirm that it's a legitmate search, after all. If the police stop doing no-knock searches, then the public will never have occasion to mistake cops for gang bangers. They can gun down anyone who busts down their door without worrying about mistakes.

They're really not worth the cost. If you think the guys in question are going to shoot you as you go through the door, there's robots for that. Use 'em, they're cheaper than widows' pensions and lawsuits when you no-knock the wrong address and gun somebody innocent down. Or wait for them to leave, or starve them out.

 

[EricOKC]

thefitzvh

Working on it - i'll get back to you though, wife wants me to unload the car after her trip to Wally World.

OK - seems that, much as I hate to admit it, I owe FedDC an apology. It wasnt him who said it.

I still think he's a JBT though.

 

[pinblaster]

I didn't say they are JBTs , but they sound like they condone JBT tactics . No knock warrants are JBT tactics IMO and compromize the safety of the cops as well as the suspect . Here in Baltimore , about two years ago a no knock warrant for drugs was served and a resident of the house shot one of the cops . No drugs were found in the house and the shooting was determined to be justified since the shooter didn't know they were cops and was acting to defend himself and his family . In another incident in Anne Arundel county a FBI agent going on info from a CI shot an unarmed 17 year old boy scout in the face with a M4 rifle mistaking him for a wanted bank robber . The boy and his girlfriend had left a 7-11 after getting slurpies when they were pulled over . One FBI guy told him to get out of the car and when the boy went to release his seat belt the other FBI guy shot him in the face thinking he was reaching for a weapon (officer safety , you know , oops sorry bout that) . Niether the boy or his vehicle matched the description of the bank robber or his vehicle .

 

[madcowburger]

I'm a lot more worried about having my constitutional rights violated by armed agents of one or another level of government than I am about some pathetic jerk somewhere looking at dirty pictures on the Internet.

I wish I had a door nobody could break down. I wish I had a Bill of Rights guaranteeing and safeguarding all my rights, all the time. Wait ... I used to. Where'd it go?

It looks like Ready Teddy Kennedy was right to introduce a bill to ban all .30-30 rifle ammo (mentioning it specifically by name), and pretty much all centerfire rifle ammo, and Komrade Kerry was right to drop everything, leave the campaign trail, and jet back to D.C. to vote for that and some other bans.

MCB

 

[Art Eatman]

Okay. I had to play catch-up.

By and large, the thread is going well, with some good points made.

The problem is a few absolutely unnecessary snide remarks and personal attacks. That will stop.

Either be polite and courteous and act like a grownup or get off this website.

As usual, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't try it on.

Art

 

[EricOKC]

Sorry Art.

 

[pinblaster]

I apologize Art . I was way out of line with that post . I don't know what got into me .

 

[Michigander]

Wow Art, you are showing a lot of restraint in this thread and I hope others appreciate it. I do.

Somehow, in my gut, I don't believe the Founding Fathers would have agreed that no-knock warrants were constitutional. As well with the "drug laws" and "war on drugs" that spawned these tactics.

I could be wrong.

 

[Brett Bellmore]

Why is it I can't stop thinking of Mermaid Man, from Spongebob?

Eeeevil!

 

[benewton]

An experience, and a couple of comments, and a serious question.

The experience:

Long ago, the early 70's, and far away, Providence, RI, a couple of detectives searched my "apartment". I learned about it from my "neighbors". I wasn't at "home", wasn't into drugs, ect, and wasn't a high school graduate, just a simple worker earning enough bucks to buy clothing for the (scholarship supported) school year.

But the two, Mark and Tom, had a 100% conviction rate.

Rumor had it they'd supply the necessary drugs, if they needed the bust...

Circumstances being what they were, I quit the job, closed the apartment, and moved out of state ASAP.

It's close to impossible to defend yourself against the state, as any thinking person knows, but it did hurt, and I paid the price over the next year for the loss of tha income.



Comment 1:

I'm older now, by a good deal, and I'll stand an fight before I move: I don't wish to use my arms, but there is no other option that I can see. Surrender,
cuffs, and a later financial ruin might seem OK to you LEO types, since you "get home", but what's the appeal from my side?

Your choice, but I'd prefer to simply be left alone by all of the "LEO" types around, to include all of the alphabet agencies.

Too, if you're the "first line of defense" for us, how come your not liable for your failure to do so? Don't bother to tell me that because of the Constitution you lack the tools: you'd deny that you're responsible for the failure to protect no matter what, and would, of course deny personal responsibility, at least in the legal sense,


Comment 2

What about all of the wrong addresses?

You can't compensate somebody killed by the LEO, and, in any case, the LEO himself never pays.

Nor can the government, of whom the LEO is an agent, ever compensate for the invasion, although, if they find nothing, I suspect that they believe that a simple appology is sufficient... You don't have to shoot to inflict harm, and you, personally, should have to pay a price, and it should be high.



Come through my doors at your own risk, since there's no way I can tell you are different from any armed assault. Munitions and costumes can be had, and I'll have no time to check your credentials since you'll have set up the assault, which is what a no knock is, well in advance, while I must "merely"
respond to your initiative.


Question:

OK, you "secure" my home, with me living through it, and unlikely event, and search it.

Assuming that you get in without "work", see, you will, essentially, trash the place. After all, you're looking for "something", are short on time, and nothing beyond your desired find is important.

As in the experience noted above, there isn't anything here.


So, since I live here, who cleans up the mess that you left?

Can I hire a company to clean the mess up, with a direct bill to your PD?
Can I charge you what I charge my clients as a consultant to clean up the mess that you left?

And why should you not be personally financially responsible for your mistakes?





I guess I agree with the 3% rule, and I understand the necessity for self protection.

Now, will the LEO's admit that the 3% rule is also applicable to them?

 

[pinblaster]

I apologize to DMF, FedDC , and any other cops I offended . It just makes me mad to hear about cops and innocent people getting shot or killed because of some of these police tactics that are used . I know that sometimes there is no other choice but I also think that alot of times these situations could be handled in a better way .

 

[Art Eatman]

"Wilk, 42, was arrested last year when he allegedly threatened officers who served a child porn warrant at the home."

Is it usual to flag such a guy's case file, if he'd threatened violence in previous encounters?

Next: Out of curiosity, what would be the probable sentence Wilk could have received on the child-porn charge, had there been no violence?

Regardless of the nature of the crime, I'd be more cautious when the accused is facing a lengthy sentence than if odds were he'd only get a little time plus a fine. (I realize some types can go nutzoid over a trivial offense having a small penalty...)

Does Florida state law require the search to be done in the presence of the resident?

Just curious.

Art

 

[Gifted]

Can we discuss, civilly, a possible middle ground? What is a solution that will keep everyone happy?

I'd say that the PD can research the individual, and determine the risk of armed response. They can then ask the judge to put on the warrant that a no-knock is justified. In this case, the previous threat of violence would be enough to justify such a warrant. Ideally, this means that the decision is made by cooler heads before anything happens. This research would tell them that any number of people on this board would respond badly to a no-knock, but aren't criminals. They would however see that knocking first isn't a bad idea, and might save their lives.

So, what do you guys think? Would you say the same people that grant the warrant have the authority to decide if you're enough of a threat to the cops to warrant a no-knock?

 

[CannibalCrowley]

DMF

The purpose of no-knocks is to use surprise and speed to minimize the chance of violence. It actually makes things SAFER for everyone involved including the subject of the warrant.

There's a fair number of innocent people who would disagree with you; however, they were killed by LEOs during no-knocks.

FedDC

The problem with that theory is what we call the "3%" rule. Basically it states that there are a small, but motivated and determined number of criminals out there that will intentionally murder police officers. That rule states that if we treat everyone like the angels above, we will be killed when we run into a 3%er.

So I guess it would be prudent for non-LEOs to use the same rule when dealing with LEOs. Since there are a number of corrupt police who will harm innocent people without a second thought, all LEOs should be treated as such because one could be killed when met with a "3%er". Using your logic, Wilks was simply defending himself from a cop who may have been corrupt and he shouldn't be vilified for doing so.

 

[Michigander]

The problem with that theory is what we call the "3%" rule. Basically it states that there are a small, but motivated and determined number of criminals out there that will intentionally murder police officers. That rule states that if we treat everyone like the angels above, we will be killed when we run into a 3%er.

What percentage of gun-owners commit crimes with a firearm? Might as well consider all firearm owners criminals. Might as well confiscate their firearms.

Am I wrong, or are the two similar in logic?

 

[firearms_instructor]

DMF, it's time to clear the air between us.

[SARCASM] Yep there is no reason to have no knock warrants. No danger at all from knocking and announcing. [/SARCASM]

For the record, I never said that no-knock raids weren't justified, but I'm personally not convinced that there aren't better options, and especially considering the lack of personal accountability for the officers involved when they screw up and damage innocent citizens...

While myself, FedDC, and other LEOs on this board have tried to explain that no-knocks are uncommon, no one wants to believe that.

DMF, I hope to God you're right, but it seems like they are becoming more and more common, and happening to the wrong people for the wrong reasons (hibiscus, anyone?). I cannot accept marijuana as a legitimate reason to break someone's door down. <SNIP>
I suspect the Law Enforcement Growth Industry feels the need to justify it's SWAT teams, but way too many innocent people are becoming victims of these horrendous botched raids.

Now regarding the case in question, and to satisfy topicality:

Wilk, 42, was arrested last year when he allegedly threatened officers

If this is true, and mind you, I can't believe Broward County Sheriff Ken Jenne because he LIED to CNN, it does change things somewhat. Now, on the subject of LIES, let's get complete about last night:

Me: If memory serves me, there was a Federal law which makes it a mandatory death penalty to kill a Federal employee. STOP THE PRESSES! FOUND IT! It's in 18 U.S.C. 115. However, I am completely unaware of any Federal law which makes it a mandatory death penalty to kill an ordinary citizen. So FedDC and his fellow Federal employees (e.g., Lon Horiuchi) are a protected species.

You: That's a LIE, the penalty is death or life imprisonment. Which is similar to most state murder statutes with regard to possible punishments.

Please have the decency to TELL THE TRUTH when arguing your point. Your credibility is shot.

OK, I made a mistake, and guess what? I'm not afraid to admit it, I'm not committed to being right at all costs. I don't appreciate you (or you, Don, apologies to Art for mistakenly putting his name in here!) insinuating that I lied on purpose. When I started writing my post I didn't have the statute at hand, and when I found it, I didn't read the whole thing.

The truth remains that there IS a SPECIAL Federal law which makes it a mandatory death penalty OR LIFE IMPRISONMENT to kill a Federal employee. AND, I am still unaware of ANY SPECIAL Federal statute that prescribes the same penalties if a Fed kills an ordinary citizen (again IF MEMORY SERVES ME, BUT IF I'M WRONG I'M WILLING TO LEARN, OK?).

Even if there was, apparently it didn't apply to the perpetrators of the government-sponsored murders at Waco and Ruby Ridge, did it? Lon Horiuchi still walks free.

The purpose of no-knocks is to use surprise and speed to minimize the chance of violence. It actually makes things SAFER for everyone involved including the subject of the warrant.

Mister, I am so NOT BUYING THIS.

I was born in a police state. All that needs to happen for a police state to develop is for the police to not be held personally liable for their actions. And that seems to be happening here with increasing regularity.

 

[insidious_calm]

No Knock at your own risk...

For all you LEO's on here who are all exicted about the chance to kick grandma's door in let me give you a reality check. Right here in Kansas there was an officer killed while serving a "no knock" warrant for drugs. The officers kicked in the door around 1am. The 3rd man through the door was shot and killed.(it's always the 3rd guy ya know)


In the subsequent murder trial the jury took about 3-4 hours to aquit. That's right, if you kick in my door, or anyone elses door in the middle of the night and you get shot then you must accept what you got. YOU CHOSE to do it that way. I won't argue that "no knocks" are never justified but the instances in which they are are few and far. IMO you put yourself at more risk with a no knock. That would be the case at my house, but then again I'm just your average serf and not a criminal. <shrug>


I.C.

 

[manwithoutahome]

Here's what I don't get. Police do no knocks because they are afraid that the evidence will go down the drain, or toilet.

All toilets, by law, are 3.5 gallons. Anyone who has ever taken a dump in one knows that it takes between two to five flushes for everthing to go down.

Now, if the LEO's shut off the water from the outside then there is only one flush, anything that isn't a misdeamoner will not go down the drain. To kill someone over a small amount of drugs that will get them civil service and probation isn't worth it. A major drug dealer will have alot more then one flush in stock.

Now, getting shot at. I don't know if the LEO's are aware of this but there is a barrier between any gun and you via a little thing called a house or door. The bullet will be slowed down, even with a "high powered" rifle and the vest may be able to stop it. If not they do sell those extend a hand things that you can use to ring the bell or knock on the door. Or use a bull horn for God's sake. If they don't open up when they know you are there then give them hell. Use your toys.

There are other ops that one can use to take and secure a house or building without going mall ninja. If you are so sure that the person is committing a felony so bad that it's going to send them to jail for life or are a danger to the public then you can contain them once you get them cornered and then go balls to the wall.

In todays world criminals are using the COPS OPEN THE DOOR bit and then knock down the door. I would have done the same as this person, I don't know who you are and I am in fear of my life. Steve, FedDC and Lilysdad seem to think that this is okay, kill an innocent, knock in the door with only a few seconds warning, kill the innocent, it's all in a days work.

I know that you all aren't reading my posts. I put in the Nazi reference to see if you had actually read the post or was just nit picking. You all are nit picking without reading what was said. This tells me alot of you lot and it's not pretty.

I have no problem with you going home alive. As it is my goal to go home alive day to day, I firmly believe that everyone else that is not me should have the same.

My only anger and going onto hatered toward the LEO community has stemmed greatly from this board. If I get a ticket for any violations that are true then I deserve them and I've never contested any violations that I was guilty of. I have never refused to answer any LEO's questions that pertained to the matter at hand. I have always been most respectful and honest.

Yet I do get upset when I see LEO's bragging about dead innocents, they deserved it you know. Or the attitude that the courts ruled wrong when you wake a man or women out of sleep and then they shoot at you because they've no idea if you are cops or if you are criminals acting like cops.

My job isn't easy either, yet if I tell a customer to go ???? him/herself because I don't like their attitude then I'm fired. If I kill an innocent because I went to the wrong house I doubt that I would get off.

When I was in the Military and we hit the wrong address we didn't even have the excuses that you have to get out of it. We were thrown to the wolves and the people that we hit and maybe killed on accident AREN'T EVEN AMERICAN CITIZENS. Shouldn't Americans have the same Rights as those in other lands?

My role was always many miles away, sitting in a freakin' bunker with a Sat. Com. and relaying information, but hell man, if we sent the wrong information or made a mistake then our butts went into the fryer just like everyone elses.

My original questions were not answered and I really don't expect them to be. You have no anwsers, you just want complete power over us "civilians" and you want us disarmed. This will not go well on a gun board but the more you speak, the more you turn us against you.

As I've said, I have nothing against LEO's. I am pissed off at the Chief of Police in Eugene for standing with the MMM when they were here. I am greatful that the Sheriff is the real law of the land because he is a person who respects the "citizens" Rights, and I have never given any LEO trouble when I've been stopped or questioned.

Yet I will tell you that four people upon this board has bittered me against LEO's in any form. Those are Lilysdad, Steve in PA, FedDC (hey, the name says it all) and DMF. DMF has actually been the only one to read the post and has given some good posts. Other than that, my bitterness and hatered that is forming is from the first three mentioned.

Since they won't answer my question, I will answer it for them:

Yes, they do want a police state. Little men get big powers. They are now the same as the federal cops that get away with everything.

Yes, they do want us to be disarmed. FedDC (and I assuming that he is a federal agent in DC) has said nothing about recinding, helping to recind, or even wanting to recind the DC ban on guns. Yet he posts here as if he is on our side.

Lilysdad is just interested in getting home. I can't and won't blame him for wanting to do so each and every night. Yet he believes that he should be able to stomp on the "civilians" Rights in order to do so, instead of using his mind to ensure that his wish comes true.

Steve in PA. This dude is just pure mean. He would sell his grandma for a buck if he could. Would make hell for anyone he stops on the street and would like to be a member of swat so he could get his hands on some real firepower that "we" can't have. I wouldn't doubt that he would shot a person for no reason and then brag about it when he was aquited. This man scares me and he wears a badge for God's sake.

It would seem that the group of you are trolling for responses while not answering any direct questions from the other members. DMF is the only one that is trying and I'm learning more and thus the reason that I just haven't come out with the black panther credo of "kill all the pigs". Yet I can't understand the great kick that others that are LEO's when some guy in a bed with a soda can is killed, that 80 women and children are killed, that one of them got a great headshot to a women with her arms full of a child. You don't see us, the "civilians" putting posts on the board when a cop that was innocent was killed. You see us saying that we're praying for the family, it was tragic, etc.. Now, there are a few that you can quote or link to but from what I've read, it's maybe two while we have four laughing and patting each other on the back when an innocent is killed. "They deserved it, either now or later because of this or that".

Do you people, you CIVILIANS with a JOB every stop and think why there is such hatered and distrust for you? Or do you just believe that you are greater than all and thus it doesn't matter? Did you ever stop and ask yourself why the majority of the people aren't on your side when we read / hear / witness these killings and then the cops or feds get a free ride when a civilian in the same position would be serving time?

Do you even bother to read the post, think, and then respond?

I'm not your damn enemy, I wanted and agreed to a truce, but you are the ones that have never wanted a truce and I will combat you with all the strength I have until I am either banned or die. If Oleg and the others think that your being here is the best for the board and that it is I that should leave, then so be it.

I have asked and asked again that you at least read the posts but you don't. If you won't give us civilians that respect then why should we give you ours.

Wayne

 

[pax]

No-knocks are really, really rare

Somewhere in the thread above, DMF opined:

While myself, FedDC, and other LEOs on this board have tried to explain that no-knocks are uncommon, no one wants to believe that.

You know, every time the subject of no-knock raids comes up, at least one LEO is sure to point out that they are really, really rare -- and that instances wherein an innocent person's home is invaded via no-knock are even more rare.

Such instances are incredibly, unfreakingbelievably rare.

Hardly ever happen.

So we shouldn't worry about it. It won't happen to one of us, anyway. Because it is really, really rare.

So here's my question for you guys to ponder.

If such mistaken invasions happen so rarely, why should it bother you to know that some of your fellow law-abiding citizens fully intend to shoot back if one happens to them?

I'll tell you why.

It's because they aren't rare enough.

pax

The usual road to slavery is that first they take away your guns, then they take away your property, then last of all they tell you to shut up and say you are enjoying it. -- James A. Donald