No Knocks are evil!!!

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There is a reply that I have been thinking about for a long time and I believe it addresses the central disconnect that we seem to be facing. I will try and explain it...here goes.

I get the feeling that many people on here would have LE orient their tactics to the nice innocent cooperative people we occasionally meet. (The And and Barney type of LE) They pose little or no threat and therefore should, in theory, be treated like angels.

The problem with that theory is what we call the "3%" rule. Basically it states that there are a small, but motivated and determined number of criminals out there that will intentionally murder police officers. That rule states that if we treat everyone like the angels above, we will be killed when we run into a 3%er. We see this in dashcam tapes where officer beg for their lives while being stomped to death or cry that they have a wife and kids just before one of those 3%ers executes a cop with his own gun. I have seen that on tape and for the most part those cops died bc they were too nice. They treated everyone like angels and every situation as if it was low threat.

The point is that we never know what the true threat level is. High threat is easy, but how do you quantify the rest of the time? Is it low threat or just Unknown threat? I would say that there is no such thing as low threat, only high and unknown bc as soon as an officer lets his guard down and goes into angelic mode, he is open to attack.

Because of this, we can not orient our tactics to deal with only the angels. We must be on the safe side and orient our tactics to the 3%ers bc one day we will run upon one or more of them and when we do, we will die violently if we are officer friendly who is too shy to search a car or person for weapons etc.

The simple reality is that any smart LEO that wants to survive will orient his tactics to the 3%ers and not just the angels. If that offends the nice people, it is better for them to be offended than us to be dead.
 
To all the LEO's here, what exactly is the problem with being polite, courteously identifying yourself, and making sure the homeowner is aware of what exactly is going to happen? What is the problem with politely knocking on the door, waiting for the person to come to the door, politely identifying yourself as a police officer and telling them you have a warrant?
What is wrong with that? Nothing IF the subject cooperates. However, in this case they knocked, announced themselves, and waited. Instead of being nice and opening up the door, Wilk armed himself, shot and killed Fatta and wounded another officer.

However, even after two of their fellow officers had been shot, one fatally, they still did the right thing, and attempted to limit the violence. They were successful in getting the killer Wilk out unharmed. Kind of puts holes in the comments that suggest all cops are, ". . . testosterone charged mental adolescents with delusions of grandeur," that think they're "better than us," and that cops are "the enemy."
 
You're missing the point... I'm not saying it's your job to get killed... I'm saying that you have NO RIGHT to infringe MY RIGHTS to keep yourself safe.

THAT is a ridiculous comment. Using that line of thinking, we shouldn't be allowed to pat down someone, place them in handcuffs, strip search them in jail, etc, because its going to infringe on the poor defendants rights and, as DC said, we're just supposed to expect to die. I say B.S. Clearly you people are advocating a reckless approach to law enforcement that none of you would apply to yourselves if you were in our place.

To all the LEO's here, what exactly is the problem with being polite, courteously identifying yourself, and making sure the homeowner is aware of what exactly is going to happen? What is the problem with politely knocking on the door, waiting for the person to come to the door, politely identifying yourself as a police officer and telling them you have a warrant?

Thats already been answered. Too many people shooting back because they were given the "courtesy" of time to prepare to assault and kill officers.
 
[sarcasm]Yes DMF I agree with you, all warrents should be no knock warrents, you never know when someone with no violent history will kill you. If you dont pay a speeding ticket police officers should kick down your door and ransack your place looking for you.[/sarcasm]
 
It is people like you, who seem to think you are above the law, that LEO's can do no wrong, who feel every "civilian" is merely a criminal who has not yet been caught, and who believe (wrongly) that their desire to go home at the end of the day trumps everyone else's rights who have caused the destructive "us-v-them" rift that exists between police and everyone else. YOU have the "police state" mentality. WE are merely responding to it.

Well put.
 
Using that line of thinking, we shouldn't be allowed to pat down someone, place them in handcuffs, strip search them in jail, etc, because its going to infringe on the poor defendants rights and, as DC said, we're just supposed to expect to die.

FedDC made some good points above... so I'll back off my rhetoric for a minute, and admit that NEITHER "nice all the time" nor "all-entries-with-flashbangs" are a good idea.

Can we discuss, civilly, a possible middle ground? What is a solution that will keep everyone happy?

I honestly don't know the solution. I certainly don't want officers to die, but I also don't want innocent people shot because the cops got the wrong house.

What would keep you safe, but avoid the thuggery? I'm NOT being sarcastic, I genuinely want to discuss this civilly
 
EDIT: Hah, sweet. TheFitz beat me to this, and he even put it more concisely.

I'm a pretty black-and-white guy. I see almost everything in either "Good" or "Evil", but even I can see there has to be some kind of middle-road here.

Apparently, one side wants the police to approach citizens on their knees, begging magnanimously that the citizens follow the law, to please -- pretty please?-- hand the officer their license and registration, so he can hand them their warning and the citizen be on their way.

The other side wants the cops to knock down doors for search warrants, as anybody and everybody could be prepared to give them the business through the walls.

Two words: nucking futs. All of it.

Why don't we apply the same dogma to cops that we apply to those of us who carry concealed? Always be in condition yellow, keep your eyes peeled and your mind moderately suspicious for anything that might go down. An officer should treat you with courtesy and respect, yes (and Joe Average should reciprocate), but he should also be ever-vigilant against whackjob scumballs who might kill him to get out of a speeding ticket.

On the subject of no-knock warrants, it depends.
On the one hand, if you're executing a search warrant for something small-time against somebody with no history of violent conduct, I'd vote for knocking on the door and waiting for an appropriate (determined by officers on scene; bureaucrats shouldn't make abitrary decisions about such things) period before knocking in the door is necessary.

On the other hand, for offenders with a history of violence, arrest warrants for serious crimes, or for search warrants for top-dollar stuff (drugs, murder weapons, the like), you'd damn well better be knocking in the door. Cops shouldn't die because Bruno the Bureaucrat said they had to wait outside while Dingus the dope-dealing dingbat dons his doo-rag and finds a good place from which to drop the hammer on the officers politely knocking on his door and calling out that they're there to, perhaps, arrest him.



~Slam_Fire
 
This is a continuation of the thread that got locked down yesterday. I hope we all learned something. :scrutiny:

Most, if not all, of us here are not in FedDC's "3%". Most of us are "law abiding" citizens who want nothing more than to go about our daily business free from the threat of attack, and would actively AVOID confrontations where physical conflict seemed likely. Most of us, however, are armed and prepared with a mindset that would allow us to defend ourselves, with lethal force if necessary, should the need arise.

You'll get no argument from me that police work is (or can be) dangerous. So is a lot of other work, and there are on the job fatalities everyday in a variety of occupations. So cops are not special in that regard. However, a cop murdered in the line of duty is especially egregious, and should be. Cops are arguably the "last line of defense" for most of our citizens.

We live in an unpredictable world, and events like the Wilk case (although comparatively rare) will happen again. How many search warrants were successfully executed between the previous cop murder and the Wilks case? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

OTOH, abuses by the police against citizens occur also. They get no more (and probably way less) attention and publicity than cop murders. We do seem to be hearing about them more frequently, though. Maybe the rise of the internet.

My point is, you cannot extrapolate one "general theory" of anything from these individual happenings. Each case needs to be studied on an individual basis. The police agencies have a tremendous incentive to study what went wrong with the Wilk search warrant, identify and implement corrective procedures. FedDC's attitude that "we just need to treat all citizens like cop killers" (paraphrasing) does his profession a great disservice, IMO.
 
What would keep you safe, but avoid the thuggery? I'm NOT being sarcastic, I genuinely want to discuss this civilly

What cops and non-cops must understand is that actions are taken based on the totality of the circumstances. Sometimes no-knocks and flashbangs are the best answer. Sometimes being soft spoken and overly polite is the best answer. Unfortunately we are often forced to make an educated guess on the action that is appropriate.

However, a balance must be struck between being "nice", and staying safe - and when I say staying safe I mean the subject of a warrant, or other police contact in addition to the cops. Contrary to some beliefs espoused here, my job is to try to make sure everyone ends the day healthy. Everyone from the other cops I work with, to the fugitive with 2 prior assault convictions who skipped bail while awaiting a murder trial.

Let's use cuffs as an example. If I decide early in the encounter that cuffs are necessary, and they are legally justified, that actually serves to protect the person in cuffs too. The longer I wait to put on the cuffs the more time they have to work up the courage to fight. Conversely if cuffs might be legally justified, but I think it will not be necessary, and will be the cause of violence I may elect not to use them. (some of these issues are dictated by agency policy, and cops get no discretion - YMMV.) Again, level of force, use of restraints, asking for a no-knock v. knock and announce, are all based on the totallity of the circumstances.

As I said earlier it's not an exact science, and often we're making educated guesses. Guessing wrong can get people killed. However, the vast majority of searches and arrests go off without a hitch. It's only the extreme cases like the Prescott AZ warrant, or this warrant on the child porn SOB that will ever get attention and discussion.
 
In another news article, it is stated:
Wilk and Jones were generally quiet, usually seen only when they were gardening or cutting their lawn, neighbors said.

I wonder how often a garden needs to be tended and how often the grass needs to be cut.
 
On the subject of no-knock warrants, it depends.
On the one hand, if you're executing a search warrant for something small-time against somebody with no history of violent conduct, I'd vote for knocking on the door and waiting for an appropriate (determined by officers on scene; bureaucrats shouldn't make abitrary decisions about such things) period before knocking in the door is necessary.
Well this is how it goes down with people believed to be "non-violent" offenders. However, one never knows when someone will fight. People don't like getting their houses searched, and certainly don't like getting arrested. This is where those educated guesses come in, and you hope you're not wrong.
On the other hand, for offenders with a history of violence, arrest warrants for serious crimes, or for search warrants for top-dollar stuff (drugs, murder weapons, the like), you'd damn well better be knocking in the door. Cops shouldn't die because Bruno the Bureaucrat said they had to wait outside while Dingus the dope-dealing dingbat dons his doo-rag and finds a good place from which to drop the hammer on the officers politely knocking on his door and calling out that they're there to, perhaps, arrest him..
Well the vast majority of this type of warrant will also be a knock and announce rather than no-knock. However, many of them result in forced entry because the occupants don't want to comply.

In both cases, both in your examples, and the in actual type of warrant, a forced entry may be necessary. Just because a forced entry occurred doesn't mean it was a no-knock. Occupants often refuse to comply after a knock and announce, as in the example I used to start this thread. A "non-violent" offender who refuses to comply can't expect the officers to simply go away. After they knock and announce, and wait a reasonable length of time, as dictated by the totality of the circumstances, they will then force entry.

I hope that clears up some of the confusion about knock and announce v. no-knocks.
 
thanks DMF. I truly appreciate your thoughts, and I mean that.

The real bugger is: how do we ensure that our new officers have the judgement ability to decide when to be nice, and when to be hardcore?
 
In another news article, it is stated:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wilk and Jones were generally quiet, usually seen only when they were gardening or cutting their lawn, neighbors said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder how often a garden needs to be tended and how often the grass needs to be cut.
I think I see where you're going with this, but they were serving a SEARCH warrant, not an ARREST warrant. They had to go in the house to search, and since it wasn't an arrest warrant they didn't have the authority to just 'hook up' Wilk to make that SEARCH easier.

Big difference in what an arrest warrant and search warrant give the cops the authority to do. Also, a big difference in what the warrants are to accomplish. A search warrant is to look for and gather evidence specified in the warrant, an arrest warrant is to seize a person based on PC that they committed a crime.

For some reason many people want to treat them as if they are exactly the same.
 
I think I see where you're going with this, but they were serving a SEARCH warrant, not an ARREST warrant. They had to go in the house to search, and since it wasn't an arrest warrant they didn't have the authority to just 'hook up' Wilk to make that SEARCH easier.

You mean they cannot secure the area, detain persons while performing a search with a valid search warrant?
 
thanks DMF. I truly appreciate your thoughts, and I mean that.
I'm glad. Contrary to earlier accusations I started this thread hoping we could clear the air, all eventually get to the civil discussion suggested by you. The thread title, and comments in my initial post got the radical comments out the way early. ;)

The real bugger is: how do we ensure that our new officers have the judgement ability to decide when to be nice, and when to be hardcore?
Well most agencies try to provide a lot of oversight to new officers in the field. Formal training programs are longer, and then field training programs have gotten even longer and more complex.

I've worked for two agencies now, and with both we employed a two agent concept. Meaning we attempted to have two agents working things whenever possible. This isn't always possible (sometimes rarely in small offices), but we rarely turn agents who are probation loose by themselves at all. My first year as an agent 90% of the time an experienced agent was with me, even for mundane tasks, and usually an agent that had at least 5 years experience. My old agency had a year long probation, my new one is two years. Now in patrol work you can't have new guys paired up for two years on everything, but most departments still have lengthy training programs.

Will we ever come up with a perfect system? No, but I honestly believe things are better now then they used to be. The job got more dangerous because LEOs have more scrutiny by the public, and get their feet held to fire for mistakes or abuses, more than they did decades ago. However, that's a good thing, because I believe in the Constitution, and if a cop screws up we need to know that they won't get away with it. I've said it before, but I'm not sure if it was on this forum, no one hates bad cops more than good cops.

Hopefully discussions like this can lead to a little more trust among all of us.
 
You mean they cannot secure the area, detain persons while performing a search with a valid search warrant?
What actions they can take are based on the totality of the circumstances. So it is not likely that the cops could just walk up and cuff Wilk in his garden in preparation to search his residence. Again, we don't know enough about the preparation for this warrant, so it's difficult to know why the cops went about the way they did. However, I guarantee this, while it may not have been successful those cops did what they thought was best, and were not looking for a violent confrontation. Every warrant I've been on, we made decisions based on what we thought would minimize the chance of violence, and I'm sure the same mindset went into planning this warrant.
 
DMF,

You stated in a prior post:
After they knock and announce, and wait a reasonable length of time, as dictated by the totality of the circumstances, they will then force entry.

What, in reality, is a reasonable length of time? Is it enough time to get out of bed and get to the door? To get from the back of the house to the front?

Another dilemma; we read more and more often of home invasions being conducted by gangbangers posing as police. Just because it sounds like a cop and looks like a cop doesn't necessarily mean it IS a cop. How am I, John Q. Homeowner, supposed to differentiate between the two in mere seconds? Am I to just answer the door empty-handed and hope it really is the police? What to do if I'm approaching the door, armed, as the door is kicked in?

As background to the previod paragraph, I've never been arrested, never seen the inside of a jail, never had an unpleasant interaction with a police officer. I KNOW the cops aren't kicking MY door down! I haven't done anything to warrant that!
 
What, in reality, is a reasonable length of time?
Varies based on the totality of the circumstances. The courts have refused to put any "bright line" rule on a length of time, because a change in the situation may change the time that is reasonable.

If I'm tail end charlie on warrant service, and while lead is knocking, and announcing, I peek through a gap in the curtains, to see an occupant pull out an 870 and open a box of shells, circumstances are changing rapidly. However, standing around knocking and announcing is no longer reasonable.
 
Another dilemma; we read more and more often of home invasions being conducted by gangbangers posing as police.
Actually it's very rare, but it does happen. If you come up with a good way to for me to serve the warrant while 100% eliminating that rare, but real, possibility I'd love to hear it.
 
As background to the previod paragraph, I've never been arrested, never seen the inside of a jail, never had an unpleasant interaction with a police officer. I KNOW the cops aren't kicking MY door down! I haven't done anything to warrant that!

That's no matter. All it takes is some paid "informant" to give your address. Sorry. That is the way it is now-a-days.
 
[Apologies; cite of rude statement removed by Art]

I see that rather than read anything I posted you'd rather pound your chest and make silly statements. Thanks for lowering the level of discussion. :rolleyes:

As a wise man on this forum once said:
Sloganeering doesn't work . . .

Mr. Art Eatman
 
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That's no matter. All it takes is some paid "informant" to give your address. Sorry. That is the way it is now-a-days.
No it's not really like that. We are required to test our informants for reliability, and credibility. I will spend months with an informant, thoroughly documenting all our meetings, and phone calls, and every way he has been tested, before I would ever consider using anything he says to justify a warrant. Also, magistrates will scrutinize thoroughly what the informant says, and the material used to establish credibility. Also, magistrates will rarely sign a warrant based solely on one informants information. They seek corroboration.

. . . and that's the way it is now-a-days.
 
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