Push feed vs. controlled feed redux

[rbernie]

And yes semi-autos like the M-14 and Garand can short stroke for a variety of reasons.

Yes, I understand that. The point is/was that the short-stroking of a semi is due to a mechanical issue and is not stress related. Short-stroking a boltie or working the action when not in the fully upright and locked position is usually indicative of operator stress. Excrement occurs.

Short stroking a bolt action is Operator Error, regardless of extractor type.

And that's a fact. I just prefer an action type that's a bit more forgiving of stress induced mistakes - no harm in stacking the deck in one's favor.

Relying upon luck or perfect execution is generally not a good long-term strategy.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

All of my rifles, except for my Weatherby Fibermark, are CRF, mainly Mausers, Pre-64 Win 70s or Classic Win 70s. I must admit that I've had one complication with a CRF, and that was on an elk hunt while I was at 9,000 above sea level. I just wanted to quietly place one in the chamber from the magazine, and I must have been sloppy with it, because somehow the cartridge rim got in front of the bolt, instead of being captured in the CRF portion. I felt tremendous resistance when I tried to close the bolt, and then pulled it open to find that the CRF did not pull it out the way it is supposed to. It was now jammed in there. Had to use a long twig to push it out again. I still prefer the CRF, and blamed it on it having been a Winchester Classic action instead of a real Pre-64 70 or a Mauser. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[rbernie]

and blamed it on it having been a Winchester Classic action instead of a real Pre-64 70 or a Mauser.

FWIW - it's not hard to stone a claw extractor such that it can snap over a cartridge rim if needed. It's not recommended to let the CRF do this a lot, but you can at least make it a capability of the system.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

FWIW - it's not hard to stone a claw extractor such that it can snap over a cartridge rim if needed. It's not recommended to let the CRF do this a lot, but you can at least make it a capability of the system.

I know. In fact I was horrified when my gunsmith did just that to the gun when I brought it to him later to see why it did that. He nonchalantly said they were designed to be able to do that. I had a hard time unclenching my teeth on seeing it done, though.

 

[GunGoBoom]

and blamed it on it having been a Winchester Classic action instead of a real Pre-64 70 or a Mauser.

Ha, I kinda doubt it since the post 67 Winchesters were (are) essentially the same as the pre-64s, only with improvements, in my understanding, but ok, we'll stick with your story.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Ha, I kinda doubt it since the post 67 Winchesters were (are) essentially the same as the pre-64s, only with improvements, in my understanding, but ok, we'll stick with your story.

Afraid you have that one wrong, my friend. From 1964 through to the early 1990s, the Winchester Model 70 was strictly a push feed rifle.

 

[cracked butt]

I felt tremendous resistance when I tried to close the bolt, and then pulled it open to find that the CRF did not pull it out the way it is supposed to. It was now jammed in there. Had to use a long twig to push it out again. I still prefer the CRF, and blamed it on it having been a Winchester Classic action instead of a real Pre-64 70 or a Mauser. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

The remedy for that situation is to push the bolt tight against the cartrige in the chamber and squeaze the extractor with your fingers- this will force the claw outward so that the rim can slip under it. It takes a bit of strength to do it, best way is to reach over with your left hand, place all of your fingers on the extractor with your thumb hooked over the top of the receiver and squeaze. Try it once with a dummy cartridge.

 

[NineHotel]

Someday I hope to be as perfect as him! ^^^

Oh I see, one is better off using their time blogging about important things like buying postage stamps than actually working on something real life like practicing with their bolt gun they plan to use on dangerous game. Got it.

 

[GunGoBoom]

Wow, Hawkeye. OK, I stand corrected. I had read that they only were different from 65-67, then went back...so not til the early 90s eh? Hrmmm, ok, thanks for the info.

 

[Owen]

As was said above, staking your life on equipment that requires flawless execution while under poop-your-pants stress to avoid a serious malfunction is just asking for trouble. Why would you consider it, when there is equipment avalable that does quite a bit to mitigate that malfunction.

If it is possible to train yourself to a level of flawless performance, why isn't every pitch thrown in MLB in the strike zone, and every hit ball a home run?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

As was said above, staking your life on equipment that requires flawless execution while under poop-your-pants stress to avoid a serious malfunction is just asking for trouble. Why would you consider it, when there is equipmenet avalable that does quite a bit to mitigate that malfunction.

If it is possible to train yourself to a level of flawless performance, why isn't every pitch thrown in MLB in the strike zone, and every hit ball a home run?

Is that an argument in favor of CRF or push feed?

 

[catman]

My CRF 1947 Winchester Model 70 30.06......they don't make them like that anymore, it functions perfect and has never failed me. All of my hunting rifles are CRF.

 

[Owen]

Hawkeye,

In favor of CRF, if it really does prevent major jams. I don't know, I haven't managed to jam a bolt action yet.

 

[sig45elite]

In the end, I think I will go with what a real "PRO" knows and not campfire "legends" , read his email to me;
"The CRF vs PF is strictly a matter of personal opinion. The majority of rifles used to take dangerous game are push feed. That is because the majority of the rifles made today are push feed. Our actions are smooth and dependable wherther CE+RF or PF so I all just depends on what you want. Then there is another choice as well. Three position safety as opposed to trigger safety. You can have either regardless of whether you choose PF or CRF. Some like the simplicity of off and and on, along with the ease of setting the safety with your thumb while in firing position. It’s a little farther reach for the 3PS. 3PS advantage is locking the bolt closed in the 3rd position. With either safety you can work the bolt with the safety on which allows you to remove a chambered round while the safety is one.

I am going to Mozambique in October for Cape Buffalo and I am taking a Prestige with 3PD and CRF in .404 Jeffrey. I just happened to build this rifle in the “traditional African Dangerous Game style because it is a traditional ADG cartridge. I would be just as comfortable using a Heritage in .416 Rem with PF and trigger safety."

Kelly D. McMillan
Director of Operations
McMillan Group International, LLC
623-582-9635
1638 W Knudsen Dr
Phoenix, Arizona 85027
McMillan Integrity-Global Vision
www.mcmillanusa.com

Become a fan of McMillan on facebook
http://www.facebook.com/McMillanGroupInternational

 

[USSR]

Hi Kelly,

Good to hear from you, and I just want you to know that the preproduction A-5 stock that I tested and evaluated for you about 9 years ago is still going strong. Keep up the good work turning out those fine stocks.

Don

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/McMillan_A-5_Stock.asp

 

[Loosedhorse]

error

 

[sage5907]

If anyone missed USSR first post on this thread they need to go back and read it again. The big point is that if a shooter double clutches the bolt on a push feed the first round can pop out of the magazine and when the bolt is cycled the second time the bolt tries to push both cartridges into the chamber at the same time. It may not be important to a paper puncher but for a hunter it's not good. BW

 

[velocette]

Hey now we can solve all the problems. Get a '17 Enfield sporter. you get a well proven, extremely strong controlled feed rifle. You can leave it cock on closing or modify to cock on opening (Dayton Traister). Magazine holds 6 rounds of 30-06 goodness.
Herewith, we have solved all of our problems and probably half the national debt too.
:-^

Roger

 

[taliv]

am i missing something?

why did we bump a 7 year old thread?

 

[sage5907]

taliv, I missed it to. Didn't expect to see the old thread appear. I did like the post by USSR that printed the data from Bart Babbit and John Snick. Data like that is timeless. BW

 

[Robert]

Someone pass the Z-Max I have to put this one back in the ground...