Real Life Double-Strike

[ColdDeadHand]

O Wise and Learned Forum Users-

I have seen some pistols advertised as having the ability to strike a round again without a manual re-cock in the event of a primer not igniting the first time.

I use an M&P40c for my EDC which does not have this capability.

The question: has anyone here ever had a misfire of this nature and then struck the round again with any success?

My feeling is that if the round is a dud, why would I waste time striking the same dead primer twice? My inclination would be that dumping said round and trying with a fresh one would probably have the highest probability of success.

Anyone with first hand knowledge of this scenario?

Thanks.

-Hal

 

[highorder]

Are you talking about shooting at the range, or against a BG in a alley?

At the range, you can easily retract the M&P's slide 1/4" to reset the striker without unchambering the offending round. I opt to tap/rack/bang and pick up duds for later inspection. Sometimes they will go off with a second strike, especially if the primer wasn't seated completely in the first place. The first strike seats the primer, a second will detonate it.

 

[Greg528iT]

I retried a "dead round" out of curiosity.

A buddy, purchased a slightly used Kimber. Nice gun. At his 1st range session he had a round fail to go off. After shoeing the round off to a fair distance we let is sit. (just in case).. later as I was policing brass, I picked it up to put in the dead round can (old ammo can) I took a look at the primer, it had been struck but very lightly. Hmmmmm loaded into a magazine pointed down range and used my Springfield to have it go bang.. It did.

Not to start a Kimber vs Springfield war here, but...

The Kimber performed well on all the other rounds it was fed. so .. a fluke?

 

[Sam1911]

My feeling is that if the round is a dud, why would I waste time striking the same dead primer twice? My inclination would be that dumping said round and trying with a fresh one would probably have the highest probability of success.

You are exactly right.

If you gun goes "click" (or "nothing") instead of "BANG" there may be several different things wrong.

Performing a "Tap-Rack-(reassess)-Bang" correction solves most of those in the briefest time possible.

("Tap" the mag to make sure it was seated fully. "Rack" the slide, to clear the dud, load a round out of the freshly-seated mag, and recock the firing mechanism, reassess to see if the threat still needs to be shot, and BANG!)

"Second-Strike" guns sell themselves with the idea that you might get a primer to light off if you just keep squeezing. That works to solve one type of problem, a couple of times out of ten. MUCH better to not teach yourself such habits.

 

[okespe04]

Tap, rack, the guns back in service.

 

[Roan]

I've had several duds in various weapons over the years. If you're at the range for fun or other relaxed environment, there's no cost in giving it another strike and it usually goes bang. I mean, why not?

If you're in combat or in a competition, ditch the dud and keep going.

 

[GLOOB]

I recall the time I tried to lighten the hammer spring on a pistol. I started getting lightstrikes. Second or third strikes didn't do anything, but when rechambered they all went off.

So it would appear to me there's a fairly limited benefit to second strike capability.
1. High primer, first strike seats it
2. slide slightly out of battery, hammer pushes the slide all the way closed

Hard/insensitive primers and/or a light hammer spring appear to me to be off the menu of second strike miracles.

You're better off visually checking the primer and chamber checking your carry ammo. Then you'll know a second strike is going to be a waste of time.

Besides that, if you've made the decision to shoot someone, would you really want a roll of the dice to decide whether a bullet actually fires, anyway?

 

[Girodin]

If I get a click I would tap, rack, bang. This is the surest way to get the gun back up and running.

 

[.45FMJoe]

In the police academy we are trained to do an immediate action drill - tap, rack, bang. Second strike capability is useless to me.

 

[usp9]

The question: has anyone here ever had a misfire of this nature and then struck the round again with any success?

Yes, several times, if I remember correctly all fired on the second strike.

 

[Radagast]

Yes, multiple times with my Beretta .22 conversion unit. With centerfire never, but then I've never tried as the Beretta has never failed and my Glock doesn't have a second strike capability. When in extreme danger* I'll always revert to racking the slide.

*of losing an IPSC stage

 

[9mmepiphany]

Two part question gets two answers.

Yes I have pulled the trigger again when it didn't go Bang the first time and it went off with the 2nd strike. I've done this with S&W 1st, 2nd and 3rd Gen pistols as well as Berettas and Sigs. Current ammunition manufacture is of such high standards this it is very rare that you'll get a bad primer.

It has been my observation that less trained shooters are likely to pull the trigger a 2nd time before realizing that the gun has not fired...I'm not sure what they are thinking. I did it because World Class IDPA shooter Ernie Langdon taught it in a Tactical Pistol class I took. His reasoning was that it was faster to pull the trigger and likely have it go off...and you could always tap and rack afterwards.

I do not teach it or advocate pulling the trigger again when it does not go off after the first strike, because as stated above, there are other reasons there was no Bang that have nothing to do with a hard primer. The exception is if you do not have the use of the other hand at that moment. The tap and rack can be done in other ways, but in that case a pull of the trigger a 2nd time is a lot faster

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

The only time I've eve had a dud round go off on the second strike in a centerfire was one of my reloads that didn't have the primer fully seated in the pocket. The first strike fully seated it and left almost no mark, second time it fired.

 

[GLOOB]

Someone posted a claim of a police officer who had a second strike go off using a Beretta in the line of duty. But I bet there's someone out there that might have lived if they'd tap-racked, rather than repeatedly pulled the trigger.

 

[Girodin]

I do not teach it or advocate pulling the trigger again when it does not go off after the first strike, because as stated above, there are other reasons there was no Bang that have nothing to do with a hard primer.

I agree this is perhaps the most compelling reason not to bother with a second trigger pull.

The exception is if you do not have the use of the other hand at that moment. The tap and rack can be done in other ways, but in that case a pull of the trigger a 2nd time is a lot faster

I would still go with a one handed manipulation, I think it is easy enough and fast enough to rack of either my holster strong side or a mag pouch support side that even in this situation I would T.R.B.. Further, as many of my guns don't have second strike capability for consistency I would just preform the immediate action drill.

All that said, I have never had a light primer strike with a center fire pistol. I have had two issues with center fire rifle rounds, both with wolf (7.62x39 IIRC). Two rounds ever in who knows how many thousands of rounds is not a lot. Never in 10s of thousands of pistol rounds is even less often. The combination of the rarity of it (at least in my experience) and the fact that I believe TRB to be the best response means second strike capabilties are nothing of note to me.

 

[RedAlert]

As stated above:
I did it because World Class IDPA shooter Ernie Langdon taught it in a Tactical Pistol class I took. His reasoning was that it was faster to pull the trigger and likely have it go off...and you could always tap and rack afterwards.

This seems to make sense to me if you have a DA/SA pistol with this feature. For sure you can pull the trigger faster than you can move your off hand to tap the mag home. Also, the re-racking takes more strength in a DA/SA (like my Sig P229) than in some other types of pistols and because of this it takes more time to return to battery.

I wonder if the TAP portion of the procedure would be better if it were to the back of the slide to ensure it is in battery rather than the bottom of the mag. If you had a failure to feed or eject, for sure the mag position would be a possible source of trouble and should be tapped to ensure proper seating.

Like all emergencies we train for, it makes sense to me to include this second trigger pull into your routine. If the second pull doesn't work, then you have your other procedures to correct the problem. If it does work, it is much the quicker procedure.

 

[Sam1911]

I wonder if the TAP portion of the procedure would be better if it were to the back of the slide to ensure it is in battery rather than the bottom of the mag. If you had a failure to feed or eject, for sure the mag position would be a possible source of trouble and should be tapped to ensure proper seating.

Sometimes a tap to the back of the slide seats a round. But, quite often from what I've seen in matches (twice on just my stage in the last big match I worked) a shooter's attempt to hammer home the slide merely gets an out-of-spec round to go from "stuck" to "STUUUUUUUCK."

(Let me say, for the record, that I find weeping on the range very disconcerting, as an SO. )

Of course, there's no perfect answer, but I think the "TRB" solves more of them, faster, and without some of the risks of really hanging up the gun.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I wonder if the TAP portion of the procedure would be better if it were to the back of the slide to ensure it is in battery rather than the bottom of the mag. If you had a failure to feed or eject, for sure the mag position would be a possible source of trouble and should be tapped to ensure proper seating.

I remember when there were three types of jams and three different responses to them...the problem with this is that it means the shooter would have to go through the process if identifying the type of jam and then selecting which correction was needed.

This has been simplified into two responses for the three types of jams...BTW a incomplete feed is the same as a non-feed, the round is either in the chamber or it isn't.

The one you can do in a hurry is the Tap and Rack. This clears/corrects failure to feeds and stove pipe jams and chambers a fresh round. The 2nd strike capability falls under the heading of...Go Ahead, just in case it works

 

[BullfrogKen]

Go Ahead, just in case it works

That's the rationale, anyway.

As long as you know it's going to go off that way, go with it. Since I haven't achieved that level of omniscience, I just assume it go off with another hit, get rid of it, and move on. No training I know of ever advocated pulling the trigger again on a dud, unless it was a revolver. I play the odds and get rid of it.


Then again, I don't win at horseracing either.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I don't win at horseracing either.

Dog racing is more predictable...they run for different reasons. Horses out of fear, dogs out of desire

 

[ChuckHotze]

Many of the responses presume that there ARE additional rounds in the Mag...right?

If this is the LAST round, striking again....is far superior to throwing the empty gun at your target. Some brands of ammo have primers, that in my experience are HARDER than others. This begs the question - of whether it is wise to SHOOT 'plinkin ammo' and then switch to SERIOUS (a.k.a. expensive) ammo when you carry?

I humbly propose that we all would be well advised to SHOOT for practice...what we are going to rely upon for defense of self - family and other good folks who may need protection. Interested in hearing others' thoughts on this topic. Thanks!!!!

 

[CZ57]

I humbly propose that we all would be well advised to SHOOT for practice...what we are going to rely upon for defense of self - family and other good folks who may need protection. Interested in hearing others' thoughts on this topic. Thanks!!!!

I agree 100%. One reason I use my handloads for SD. I shoot the same rounds at the range. I also shoot cast bullet loads that are non SD, but I usually shoot an equal amount of SD loads. Thankfully, we are in Texas where the use of a handload for SD is a non issue.

BTW, I have had priming tools wear out and would high seat primers. The first strike would go click, the second strike would go boom in every case. Second strike capability is a worthwhile feature because 95% of the time a second strike to the primer will fire a high seated primer. If it doesn't, then you still have Tap-rack-bang as an option.

 

[Jaywalker]

It wasn't a handgun, but I've had rifles fail to ignite CCI primers, which are known to be "hard." After several attempts, some ignited, but not many - 20%, IIRC. I was advised to use easier primers, such as Federal, which worked at a 100% rate. I didn't try the dented primers in another rifle, but I suspect they would have worked, as CCIs always worked in my Model 70.

 

[sarduy]

if you have the "option" like taurus then use it, if you don't have the "option" like Glocks then tap & rack.

 

[1SOW]

Problem: Gun goes 'click'.
1.. Restrike-click
2.. TR-jamb
3. Drop the mag, clear, reload-bang. last choice

What a total of 6-7 or more seconds elapsed?

4. Throw the gun at the BG if 3. didn't work---hopefully not plastic


If you have the spare mag and are proficient at mag changes, it will take less than half that time to go straight to a mag change. It will work or nothing will.

Each choice is just your best guess for the fastest fix.