Searching for Long Range Scope for my DPMS LR-308.. PLEASE HELP

[4Freedom]

Hi, I am going to do some shopping around for a rifle scope for my DPMS LR-308 gun. I just got a new credit card with 0% APR for 1 year on purchases and I want to put it to good use . Now is this time of course.

Anyway, I have been going a lot of research on scopes as of late and have a better feel for them. I will say my gun will be probably shooting out the farthest to 600 yards and probably on average will be shooting at 100 yards to 300 yards. However, I wouldn't mind having a scope that has better magnification and will also help me shoot flawlessly at 1000 yards. My DPMS LR-308 is really like a sniper rifle and is made for only longer range shots, so I want a scope that can handle the long range. I have two AR-15s and will be using a Trijicon ACOG and AIMPoint for closer in shots.

Well, I have been investigating the different magnications and reticles. Some people say Leupolds are not as good as others, because they lack an IOR with MP8 reticle. Well, from reading various other message boards, people have told me the TMR is the best reticle to get on Leupold. Others have said IOR with MP8 reticle is the best. Well, I like the fact that I read the TMR has less obstruction than the Mil-Dot reticle. I was comparing the two and it looks like the Mil-dot does cause some image obstruction, as well as lacks the range finding capabilities of TMR. I really would like to master TMR type reticle as I think it would make me a better shooter. However, I really do not know the advantage of IOR reticle over TMR. If anyone here has a better idea I liek to know.

As for magnifcation, I was thinking of getting 8.5-25x50mm Mark 4 LR/T or ER/t. I suppose this is the biggest and best monster Leupold has to offer. If people think this scope is way over kill for shooting up to 1000 yards and will not improve my shooting at 500 yards or so, then I like to know. Can anyone tell me the difference between the LR/T and ER/T Mark IVs? I checked Leupold's webstie and I couldn't find any concrete information on the differences between these two types of scopes. They say the ER/Ts are the greatest, thats about it. They also seem to cost more, whats the advantage?

Any other scope suggestions would be welcomed. I do live near Leupold plant and hear Leupold offers the best warranty around and I can resell my Leupold for close to what I paid for it, because of this. For this reason, i feel happiest going with Leupold Mark IV. However, if there are some other options of the type of shooting I described I like to know.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

8.5-25x is too much magnification...it won't be worth 2 cents at 50 yards.

I've done some long range shooting (and some short range shooting)...there is no need for more than 6-18x magnification, and a good 4-12x is about as good as it gets.

The only time anybody needs all that magnification is if they are shooting in benchrest competitions...

All that said...there is nothing wrong with the Mark 4's, just don't get "wrapped around the axle" and get more magnification than will be useful.

 

[4Freedom]

I was thinking perhaps of going with 6-20 power scope. Would there be anything wrong with this magnification? Or should I downgrade it to 4.5-14? I thought having little bit extra mag woudl be helpful, since I only plan on using the LR-308 as a long range gun. I don't plan on mounting this optic on any gun that I will be shooting at 50 yards. Most of the shooting will be 300+ yards out. Someone told me that if you need a real good view of an obscure sight, a very high magnification will give u such an image and make for more accurate shooting, even from closer-in targets.

Also, I know I have read about it before, but do people think the Front Focal features of the ER/T are worth the extra money versus the LR/T that do not use Front Focal?

 

[BsChoy]

Well if you think about what the army and marines used as their general long range optic (10x Unertl) 25x is way overkill. It magnifies mirage and inside 100 yards it had better be cranked down a bit. 10-12x would be just fine IMHO

 

[lipadj46]

Honestly the 4-14x is the way to go unless you are one of those extreme long range competitive shooters. US snipers have used 10x scopes for years for long range shots. 6-24X would be a useful range also.

The mk4 is a good scope and you can't go wrong with it though they are a bit overpriced. Did you consider the Leupold mk4 10x? That is a really rugged nice scope that is different than the regular mk4's that are based on the VX-IIIs you could probably drop that scope from a plane and not break it.

Here are some suggestions for other scopes to look at around the same price as the mk4. If you can afford the IOR's I would recommend you check them out. Also the Zeiss conquest is great and you can get really nice aftermarket turrets installed that will give you as much adjustment as the mk4 for maybe $100. The new Sightron SIII 3.5-10X is another superb scope with a lot of adjustment and nice accurate turrets. With either you will be getting a much better scope for the money.

5214559973 Zeiss 4.5-14x44 Conquest Rifle Scope
Matte
Rapid Z 1000
1"
Side Focus
Etched Glass
2nd Plane
$874.95

SIIISS3510X44LRMD New Sightron 3.5-10x44 SIII 30mm Riflescope
Matte
Mil-Dot
30mm
Side Focus
Target Knobs
$704.95

SIIISS624X50LRMD Sightron 6-24x50 SIII 30mm Riflescope
Matte
Mil-Dot
30mm
Side Focus
Target Knobs
$789.95

SIIISS832X56LRD Sightron 8-32x56 SIII 30mm Riflescope
Matte
Dot
30mm
Side Focus
Target Knobs
$824.95

426242P Bushnell 6-24x40 Elite 4200 Rifle Scope
Matte
12x Mil-Dot
1"
Rainguard
Side Focus
$529.95

652164MD Bushnell 2.5-16x42 Elite 6500 30mm Rifle Scope
Matte
Mil-Dot
30mm
Side Focus
Rainguard
Free SunShade
$699.95

654305MD Bushnell 4.5-30x50 Elite 6500 30mm Rifle Scope
Matte
Mil-Dot
30mm
Side Focus
Rainguard
Free SunShade
$899.95

212328 IOR 2-12x32 Tactical 35mm Rifle Scope
Matte
Illuminated MP-8
35mm
Side Focus
Free IOR 35mm Medium Rings w/ Purchase
$1,274.9

251421 IOR 2.5-10x42 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope
Matte
Illuminated MP-8
30mm
First Focal Plane Reticle
$1,039.95

301842 IOR 3-18x42 Tactical 35mm Rifle Scope
Matte
MP-8
35mm
Side Focus
First Focal Plane Reticle
Free IOR 35mm High Rings w/ Purchase
$1,494.95

If you find you don't want to take out a 2nd mortgage for the house to buy a scope you could always get a SS:

SS10X42 SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope
Matte
Mil-Dot
30mm
Rear Focus
OK for .50 cal
$299.95

SS10X42M SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope
Matte
Mil-Dot
30mm
Side Focus
OK for .50 cal
$399.95

 

[Jim Watson]

Are you going to be shooting from a steady position; sandbag, bipod, or properly used sling?
If so, there is hardly any such thing as too much magnification. I have a couple of VX III 8.5-25s on F class (bipod) rifles and they seldom get below about 18X.

I am a known distance shooter and cannot comment on the various trick reticles. My more experienced friend who has used several types says the main thing is practice. Range estimation and holdover must be well nigh automatic. You don't get that off the internet or or articles extolling one set of squiggles over another.

Leupold is certainly a good standard brand, use them myself. The only difference I can see on a quick scan is that the ER/Ts have first focal plane reticles, the LR/Ts have second. A first focal plane reticle's only real advantage is that reticle features can be used for rangefinding and holdover at any power. The disadvantage is that they magnify along with the target and a reticle that is big enough to see at low power will look coarse at high power. The second focal plane reticle has its feature spacing figured for one power. They can be used at others, but at the cost of extra arithmetic. But it looks more in proportion to the target, power, and range; what most Americans are accustomed to.

Other brands, sure, lots of them as mentioned above. My friend says the Sightron SIII scopes are good values in the field. Doubt the resale value will hold up like a Leupold or other big brand name, but then I don't buy stuff to sell.

Something to beware of. If you shoot much beyond 600 yards, there are very few scopes with enough range of adjustment to get to 1000 yards. Nearly all long range and Long Range shooters use tapered bases to add another 20-30 MOA of elevation.

 

[4Freedom]

Are you going to be shooting from a steady position; sandbag, bipod, or properly used sling?
If so, there is hardly any such thing as too much magnification. I have a couple of VX III 8.5-25s on F class (bipod) rifles and they seldom get below about 18X.

THis is what I have heard, so I didn't feel like getting a high mag would be a problem. I mean, if I am shooting closer I can always zoom the mag down to the lower magnification. I know many scopes are fixed at 10 mag, but I rather not be limited. As for what I am doing, I will be doing a little bit of everything. The LR-308 will be my all purpose sniper, long-range gun. I plan on shooting it from bipod eventually, but will start out just doing it with my hands. I would like one scope that can do a lot of stuff at various ranges. If I decide one day to go on trip to Montana for long range shooting, I'd rather not have to buy another expensive scope, just for that.

So, do you think getting Mark IV 8.5-25 then would have advantages then? I was thinking I want a Leupold, because the customer service I hear is the best and I live not far from Leupold headquarters. From reading various posts, it seems many thinkg that Zeiss makess a better quality lens, but Leupold has better eye relief.

Leupold is certainly a good standard brand, use them myself. The only difference I can see on a quick scan is that the ER/Ts have first focal plane reticles, the LR/Ts have second. A first focal plane reticle's only real advantage is that reticle features can be used for rangefinding and holdover at any power. The disadvantage is that they magnify along with the target and a reticle that is big enough to see at low power will look coarse at high power. The second focal plane reticle has its feature spacing figured for one power. They can be used at others, but at the cost of extra arithmetic. But it looks more in proportion to the target, power, and range; what most Americans are accustomed to.

So for shooting longer ranges, you would suggest the second focal type reticle, since it properly resizes according to the magnification? This has been one concept that always has confused me, although I think I understand it mostly. So the advantage of the front focal is that it can do range finding easier? If you are shooting lets say at 15x, would your reticle be obstructed quite a bit as compared to second focal? Some have told me that front focals are the best type of scopes, but I am not sure. I suppose if you have a second focal scope at 20x, you will have less obstruction from the reticle, which means greater FOV?


With all these different choices for scopes I am going nuts :banghead::banghead:.. I have been doing a lot of reading, but I am thinking I might just have to go with God on this. THat is why I am thinking Leupold, because I hear of the great warranty and that you can resell them for a lot of money, because of their warranty plan. Also, it seems lot of people around here use Leupold, since they are local company.

Can someone please explain to me, what exactly the MP8 reticle is and what advantages it has over the TMR reticle on the Leupold? Also, if I did get a Leupold would people advise to get the TMR over the Mil-Dot? Is the IOR a better scope all around? Do any othe scopes than IOR have the MP8 reticle?

 

[taliv]

you really can't get everything you want in one scope. sorry. it's a compromise. deal with it.

if you want it for PRACTICAL shooting, get something in the 3-18 range. with mil-dots or hashes or some ranging reticle with holdovers

if you're shooting static competitions (NRA long range, benchrest, whatever) then yeah, more magnification the better. the scope i use for and absolutely love for that is the nightforce benchrest 12-42x56.

 

[H2O MAN]

I have a Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T with Illuminated TMR Reticle and M2 knobs on my SEI M21A5/CH EBR

 

[lipadj46]

THat is why I am thinking Leupold, because I hear of the great warranty and that you can resell them for a lot of money, because of their warranty plan. Also, it seems lot of people around here use Leupold, since they are local company.

Personally I worry more about getting the best product for the money and not on resale value but to each his own...

If you are sticking with Leupold do yourself a favor then and look at the new VX-3 models (NOT the old VX-IIIs) they look to be pretty equal to the VX-7 for half the price. The only benefit of a 1st focal plane scope is if you need to estimate range from something of known size at any power magnification. Personally I don't like when the reticle gets larger with more magnification because the crosshairs get thicker also so I would recommend the second plane. You can still estimate range just only at one set magnification power.

 

[TRGRHPY]

If you're not trying to hunt with it and shooting from bipod, bench, whatever, then get a higher power. If you will have to quickly search for targets a differing ranges then you will want something around 10x. I have a fixed 20x with mil-dots and have no problems...not with the scope anyway.

 

[Jim Watson]

I guess the ultimate in all-purpose scopes would be the March variable sold by Kelbly, the benchrest people. 2.5-25X ought to cover a multitude of sins. Only $2800.

If for much offhand or field position shooting, you might look at a 6-18 or 6.5-20X for the lower low end. 8x magnifies my wobbles more than I like when standing.

Oh, yeah, get knobs. Exposed target knobs with big white arrows, numbers, and graduations. I thought the Bushnell 6500 looked good and had a wide zoom range, but its capped dials are more suited to a hunting scope than a target rig.

 

[lipadj46]

I thought the Bushnell 6500 looked good and had a wide zoom range, but its capped dials are more suited to a hunting scope than a target rig.

Well in it's defense it is a hunting scope it does not have anywhere near enough elevation adjustment for your kind of shooting

 

[H2O MAN]

Jim Watson I guess the ultimate in all-purpose scopes would be the March variable sold by Kelbly, the benchrest people. 2.5-25X ought to cover a multitude of sins. Only $2800.

Does anyone have a link?

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, you can see the 10-60X at
http://www.kelbly.com/scopes.html
but they do not include the 2.5-25X I saw at the SHOT Show.

 

[taliv]

The only benefit of a 1st focal plane scope is if you need to estimate range from something of known size at any power magnification. Personally I don't like when the reticle gets larger with more magnification because the crosshairs get thicker also so I would recommend the second plane.

i can't agree with this. range estimation isn't even the primary benefit, much less the only benefit.

when you use scopes in field conditions on a clock, you quickly discover a number of truths

turning knobs takes more time than holding over
higher magnification gives you smaller field of view
the smaller the field of view, the more time it takes

being stuck on the highest power when trying to use a reticle to hold over is teh suq

sure, i can keep sub-moa groups better on 17x than 6x, but i can get much faster hits on silhouettes at 6x than 17x.

if you have to engage targets at different ranges (which WILL be the case in almost any practical-rifle style competition) you're far better off with a FFP.

a well-designed reticle is still easy to see at low power.

 

[TIMC]

For my AR-10 I chose the Leupold VXIII6.5-20x40mm LR scope with the side focus and duplex reticle. I use mine for a hunter and most targets run 100-300 yards but I am sure it would perform well out farther if needed. Not my choice for a 1000 yard scope but this is a meat eater rifle not a target toy.

 

[taliv]

by the way, to the OP

i strongly urge you to reconsider going into debt for a scope. building up credit card debt is a galactically bad idea.

before you buy, make sure you talk to Alex at www.eurooptic.com

that's my new favorite optic vendor. i just bought a nightforce from them and got a SIGNIFICANTLY better price than midway and free shipping on a scope he didn't even have in stock and had to special order!

i hope to save up enough money to pick up either a meopta or the new trijicon in a month or two. i'll definitely buy from Alex again.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Unless I'm mistaken, you still haven't told us your budget on said credit card which you are willing to charge. I'm at a complete loss of how anyone could effectively help you without knowing the budget. If there's no limit on the budget, the answer is always US Optics SN-3 for long range. If you meant something LESS than $3,000, then you must say so, and say HOW much less than $3,000.

http://www.usoptics.com/

Jim Watson, how much are those Kelbly fixed powers, and where do you order them? Which one would you use for 600-1000 yards, the fixed 40, 50, or 60?

i strongly urge you to reconsider going into debt for a scope. building up credit card debt is a galactically bad idea.

And absolutely, +1 to that. I'm a financial counselor (among other things), and credit card debt should be avoided like the plague, except for dire emergencies like a broken heater or refrigerator or some such. Only thing worse is pawn shops & signature loans.

 

[c5_nc]

I'm not sure if offeset bases are avalable for AR-10 type mounts. You may have to use Burris Signature Zee Rings (they have offsett inserts) to get many scopes to work. Others have the 75moa+ needed to work out of the box. I think these are the best buys:
$175 Bushnell 10x tactical (~100moa of adjustment)
$275-300 Millett TRS-1 4-14(will be out in March or april)
$390 Falcon Menance 4-14 (there are only a handfull available in the states of now), enough 100moa+ also
$500-550 Bushnell 4200 5-20 Tactical (you will need the offset base)
$800 Nikon Monarch X 5-20 (can find at discount or on samplelist.com sometimes)

 

[robsc]

Burris Tactical ODgreen AO, 4.5-14x44mm ballistic plex reticle
Burris Tactical ODgreen AO, 6.5-20x44mm ballistic plex reticle

 

[4Freedom]

i strongly urge you to reconsider going into debt for a scope. building up credit card debt is a galactically bad idea.

Hi thanks for the advice. Well, I am not exactly going into deep debt. I may have a small debt, but if worse case scenario, I can sell some guns, ammo or optics. However, at 0% APR for 1 year, its hardly debt, because the choice is, either I wait to buy one in a year or I can get one now and pay just little bit at a time with no interest. So, in effect, i will be just getting my scope a year in advance for the same price, why not? I was planning on waiting for my scope, but since I get this special deal on my CC, i wanna go for it.

Unless I'm mistaken, you still haven't told us your budget on said credit card which you are willing to charge. I'm at a complete loss of how anyone could effectively help you without knowing the budget. If there's no limit on the budget, the answer is always US Optics SN-3 for long range. If you meant something LESS than $3,000, then you must say so, and say HOW much less than $3,000.

Hi thanks for bring up that point Dr. Tad Hussein , yes I apologize for not mentioning that. I want the scope to cost no more than $1600. I was planning at first on getting a 8x-25x Mark IV Leupold ER/T, which I have found for that price. However, I WOULD LOVE to spend less than that and if people think I can find a scope that can effectively hit up to 800 -1000 yards effectively for much less price I would love to know. THe more money I save the better, but I dont want a piece of crap scope either. I have a DPRMS LR-308 that I want to use as a long range sniper type gun and would like to get a scope that can handle it all for the best price. Also, I like a scope with a good warranty, so if I break it, I can get it replaced without any trouble, like Leupold.

before you buy, make sure you talk to Alex at www.eurooptic.com

Thanks for the link Taliv, I will definately check out what scopes he has available.


If any of you can suggest me from what I described I appreciate it. I want to stay awawy from Nikons, as I heard customer service and warranties are questionable. I suppose Bushnell Elite may be an option, as I heard they warranty it, but I like to know what else is avaiable. Forget US Optics or the other super expensive scopes, I cannot afford them. Some say Zeiss have better glass than Leupold, but Leupolds have better eye relief. Iwas always told eye relief is most important factor for higher recoil guns like .308.

ONce again, do people suggsest MP8, TMR or Mil-Dot? I have heard MP8 reticles are best but not available on Leupold. I think an illuminated TMR reticle sounds good. After reading about them, I still don't quite get the great advantage of each.

Is illumination really that important? Does it make shooting on a cloudy day or at dusk easier to do? I assume you can never shoot at night without night vision, so I guess it really only helps if you are dark room or something or in low light areas?

 

[lipadj46]

However, at 0% APR for 1 year, its hardly debt, because the choice is, either I wait to buy one in a year or I can get one now and pay just little bit at a time with no interest

Credit card companies have a tendency to be very sneaky about those 0% "deals" they can easily bump your interest rate to 28+% and then charge you the interest retroactively. Take this from a chump who has been there and done that. I refuse to own a credit card besides my debit card and my wife does not own one either. My advice would be to buy the Super Sniper 10x for $300 and see if you enjoy long distance shooting and then save your cash for your dream tactical scope and then sell your Super Sniper for $275 shipped (they are easy to sell because SWFA is always out of stock due to government contracts). The Super Sniper is a very nice, tough, bright, accurate scope and you may find you like it just fine and not need anything more and then you can buy a whole new rifle with your savings. They also make a side focus model for $400 and higher magnifications are also available.

 

[UnTainted]

Nightforce bro, love my 5.5-22x56mm!!! She's so sweet!

I'm drooling over their new 2.5-10x32mm!!!

 

[MCMXI]

taliv, excellent point about the FFP scope and hold overs.

4Freedom, I own a bunch of Leupold Mark 4 scopes including one FFP in 3.5-10X. I have 1.5-5X scopes with the SPR reticle, 3.5-10X scopes with the TMR reticle, one illuminated, one not, a 6.5-20X with an illuminated TMR reticle and an 8.5-25X also with an illuminated TMR reticle. Are Leupolds the best scopes available ... no, but If you buy a Leupold Mark 4 you will like it and you'll probably find little to complain about for many years to come. If you can afford it, definitely look at Nightforce as well. As for magnification, I would recommend the 8.5-25X and the FFP version called the Mark 4 8.5-25x50mm ER/T M1 Front Focal. Bear in mind that you won't find an illuminated reticle version in this model but that may not be a problem or issue for you. The TMR reticle is outstanding in my opinion.

Who cares if the army and marines use a fixed 10X? How is that relevant to anything? The SAS use a 5-25X S&B scope ... so what!! :banghead: The last time I checked, the Unertl has been replaced by a Leupold ... for the army anyway.