HeavenlySword
Member
Hey, taliv, I checked their site. They do not appear to sell ACOGs, or Trijicon products 
Searching for Long Range Scope for my DPMS LR-308.. PLEASE HELP
- Thread starter 4Freedom
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pgeleven
Member
god knows i love Leupold optics, i have 3 scopes from them which have never let me down, but if you want something close thats maybe a little bit cheaper, try the Millett brand out. i have the TRS 1 on my Savage 308 and it has been impressing me every time i take it to the range. its a 4x16, and it provides a clear enough FOV to where you want to be at medium to long ranges.
before you choose an optic, try to keep this thread open for awhile to get as much feedback as possible so you can get the most for your money
before you choose an optic, try to keep this thread open for awhile to get as much feedback as possible so you can get the most for your money
Lloyd Smale
Member
keep in mind that mildots in a scope are not meant to be sight points. they are there to determine range and then you are suppose to adust your elevation and windage. For most shooter a rangefinder is much easier to use. So dont bail on a good scope just because it doesnt have all those busy dots and lines in it. Unless your a real crawling through the crap sniper you dont need them.
1858, what makes a Nightforce better than a Leupold? They are definately more expensive, but what justifies the cost? Also, what is the warranty of a Nightforce like compared to a Leupold? I didn't hear you mention Zeiss, like others. Anyone think Zeiss is inferior, equal or better than Leupolds and/or Nightforces?
Keep in mind I only have the money for one scope, not hundreds. I am looking to get one scope that can be the best of the best as a long range scope. I have purchased an ACOG and will purcahse an AIMPoint for closer range stuff. What I like to know is what one scope for long range sniper shooting for a variety of set of situaitons, such as running through grass or hiding on a building hitting a target 800 yards away, etc. I know one scope never fits all, but with my limited budget I will try my best.
If people think having a fixed 10x is so good, what is wrong with buying a 6-20 or 8-25 Leupold Mark 4 which you can keep at 10 and adjust it when needed? I don't see the advantage of fixed power scope for long range shooting.
Anyway, I am still in a bind as to what to get. I am thinking Leupold could be nice, because if I needed to sell it for some reason it would not be hard. However, I doubt I would ever sell my scope, that is really not an issue. I just like a good warranty. I am not sure if Nightforce, Zeiss, Bushnell can give a warranty like Leupold on the high end stuff.
So, to make things easier, would not a TMR reticle do the job for me? I suppose illumination can come in handy if I am shooting in a dark area; as with the ACOG, I see its purpose. Anyway, to make things easier maybe I will go with Mark 4, but I would love to hear about Nightforce and Zeiss and others in the price range. If I could get by with spending $900 on my scope that would be nice, but I rather spend more if I can get al ot more out of it, even I can go up to $1500 if it really is a spectular scope. However, if a $1000 scope can do as much, then I rather do that.
As I said, I will be using my DPMS LR-308 for shooting long range, like 300 yards and beyond. Hopefully , I will be able to find a place that I can practice real long range shooting.
pgeleven
Member
and some of us know how to use mil-dots instead of having to mess around with a range finder. it takes a bit of practical application, agreed... but once i figure out my dope, i can reference any yard line on the range and hit it without touching my elevation knob. also, if you familiarize yourself with the size of deer (or any animal of your choice) at various distances, the mil-dot can save you a ton of time and second-guessing (once again, if you really know how to apply it). some may look at it and say 'only snipers would use this', but it has saved me the money of having to buy a range finder.
for what its worth, our local gunsmith at Gander Mtn, has sworn upon Leupold scopes to the degree that if you brought him one with a problem, he will give you a brand new one in trade to walk out the door with because he has the utmost confidence that they will honor the warranty and replace it. same with Nikon. theres a million good brands out there, just do some shopping around from site to site if you plan on paying good $ for glass... also, check out the optics room on this forum, this topic may have already been covered and could provide you some additional feedback.
not a lot of people realize how a black zero target can effect a set of black crosshairs. its always nice to have the option
GregGry
Member
Buy a 400$ or less scope, and spend 1,000$ on training, ammo, and range fees. A 1,000$ scope wont make you a better shot then a 300$ scope if you have had no training and little to no practice. Buying the scope and paying as you go when it comes to ammo and training will keep your credit card balance reasonable, and it will force you to spend money only when you need to. Don't max that card out right away. Remember, a credit card is not money. It is a loan at crazy interest prices. A year will be gone in an instant. Don't put anymore money on it then absolutely have to.
But whats the use of training if I train with a crappy scope? And also, what if my $400 scope breaks? I am out $400, because I hear scopes in this price range usually are not warrantied. Maybe Leupold is different in this regard, I don't know. As for my credit card, I know its not free money. I am one of the most tight pocketed people on the earth. I mean I don't spend money on anything. However, after the election I started getting into guns and have been buying what I think wont be around. However, I just want a couple more optics and couple handguns, thats all. As for ammo, I am stocking up on that too..
Maybe you are right though, why buy a $1500 scope being a new shooter. Perhaps buying a lower priced Leupold would be the way to go. However, I would like a long-range scope that has tactical abilties. If I am going to train, I like to train also with a good scope. I was reading Zak Smith's article and he said it is a must to get a good scope if you want to make the most of your training.
Taliv, I see that this guy has some decent deals on Zeiss Conquest scopes. DO you think the Zeiss scopes outperform Leupold? I keep hearing of one flaw with some of these scopes as being eye relief. Any comment on that? The type of reticles the Zeiss scopes have seem to be different than the type I am seeing of Leupold.
i don't have any personal experience with the conquest line. (that i can remember) (i've looked through plenty of zeiss/hensoldt scopes though) i couldn't tell you though if they have a problem with eye relief, or if their competition has just done a little better.
however, i'd encourage you to make a list of what's most important to you and prioritize it.
good glass (light transmission, color, lack of distortion around the edges) is very important, but it's not at the top of my list. so i don't get too wrapped around the axle over which vendor edges out another this year when all of the top brands have great glass that's good enough for me, especially considering how different people can look through a group of scopes and disagree about which one is best.
so i wouldn't pick a scope that lacks other important features just to get 1% better glass. i'm not saying that's zeiss, but it is sort of my impression of their market. when i got my scope from eurooptic.com they included several bound catalogs from swarovski, zeiss, nightforce, etc. the 3 swarovski catalogs had awesome pictures of tweetie birds. the zeiss catalog was 'Hunting' and the nightforce catalog was decidedly tactical. i'm not saying you should pick your scope because the marketing guys dressed some poor dude up in camo and took pictures of him lying in the mud with their product, but it might give you a hint about how the company prioritizes their own list. i expect their reticle and knob choices might reflect those priorities.
i wouldn't buy a <$400 scope. you and Zak are right that crappy hardware is an impediment to learning. however, there are plenty of good choices in the $600-1000 range, which could save you enough for a case of ammo, which is a lot of shooting.
however, i'd encourage you to make a list of what's most important to you and prioritize it.
good glass (light transmission, color, lack of distortion around the edges) is very important, but it's not at the top of my list. so i don't get too wrapped around the axle over which vendor edges out another this year when all of the top brands have great glass that's good enough for me, especially considering how different people can look through a group of scopes and disagree about which one is best.
so i wouldn't pick a scope that lacks other important features just to get 1% better glass. i'm not saying that's zeiss, but it is sort of my impression of their market. when i got my scope from eurooptic.com they included several bound catalogs from swarovski, zeiss, nightforce, etc. the 3 swarovski catalogs had awesome pictures of tweetie birds. the zeiss catalog was 'Hunting' and the nightforce catalog was decidedly tactical. i'm not saying you should pick your scope because the marketing guys dressed some poor dude up in camo and took pictures of him lying in the mud with their product, but it might give you a hint about how the company prioritizes their own list. i expect their reticle and knob choices might reflect those priorities.
i wouldn't buy a <$400 scope. you and Zak are right that crappy hardware is an impediment to learning. however, there are plenty of good choices in the $600-1000 range, which could save you enough for a case of ammo, which is a lot of shooting.
Lloyd Smale
Member
sorry multiple post
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Lloyd Smale
Member
sorry multiple post
Hi, I just talk to the guy at europtics and he pretty much told me that anything he sells and any european scope in general is better than Leupold, period. Well, he seemed to know what he was talking about and me being inexperienced, all I could do is agree with him. Of course now I will hear ravings from devoted Leupold owners and I hope I can hear the other side. He says nothing Leupold makes can compare with a European scope or a Zeiss. Perhaps he says this to sell his products or he makes a genuine claim, I don't know.
WEll thats a tough one for me. There is so much to know about scopes, taht with the little time I have in my life to learn about them, I just cannot give you the most concrete list. However, let me say it like this, I want a long range tactical scope. I would like a long range scope that can be useful in battle situations. Perhaps moving targets closing in on me at 800 yards. Or lets say I want to hit a moving target far away. I guess what I want to say, is I want a scope that has good optics, of course, but also has good range finding abilities and can quickly adjust magnificaiton the quickest.
I don't really know if I made myself clear enough, but this is what I am looking for. A military style long range sniper scope is what I desire. I am not really looking for a pretty scope that will win me a shooting match at 2000 yards. I mean, if it has that ability, that is great. I was always told having extra magnification is real important for hitting targets over 500 yards or so, but I am not really sure. Also, I was told because Leupold has such poor glass quality that you are not really able to utilize its high magnificaitno effectively, like a Zeiss. Once again, this can just be BS from a Euro optic owner/dealer. I, myself am not knowledgable enough to say.
WEll thats a tough one for me. There is so much to know about scopes, taht with the little time I have in my life to learn about them, I just cannot give you the most concrete list. However, let me say it like this, I want a long range tactical scope. I would like a long range scope that can be useful in battle situations. Perhaps moving targets closing in on me at 800 yards. Or lets say I want to hit a moving target far away. I guess what I want to say, is I want a scope that has good optics, of course, but also has good range finding abilities and can quickly adjust magnificaiton the quickest.
I don't really know if I made myself clear enough, but this is what I am looking for. A military style long range sniper scope is what I desire. I am not really looking for a pretty scope that will win me a shooting match at 2000 yards. I mean, if it has that ability, that is great. I was always told having extra magnification is real important for hitting targets over 500 yards or so, but I am not really sure. Also, I was told because Leupold has such poor glass quality that you are not really able to utilize its high magnificaitno effectively, like a Zeiss. Once again, this can just be BS from a Euro optic owner/dealer. I, myself am not knowledgable enough to say.
Lloyd Smale
Member
I think what greg is saying is not to buy a crappy scope but dont get so wrapped up in it. Any of the scopes you metioned are going to do everything you need it to do on your dpms. Its basicaly a 500 yard gun and maybe a little more. If your going past that range you might want to think of buying a dedicated long range bolt gun anyway. Me i say buy a scope in the 500-1000 dollar range. Look more for good optics then for gadgets. As to which one is best for you, go to where people are shooting the ranges you want to shoot and try there scopes. You can buy a real good scope in that price range. If i was scoping a competition gun for shooting a 1000 yards maybe then id say go with something like a nightforce kahles or swarovski. Greg was right when he said to buy something a little less expensive and buy a ton of ammo as thats what it takes to be a good long range shooter. You cant buy yourself there. I here all the time that one scope is better then the other. Ive own and have owned many scoped rifles and have had leupolds, burris redfields bushnells bauch and lombs Ziess and even tascos and have never missed a shot that 500 dollars more scope would have bought me.
Lloyd Smale
Member
4Freedom your dealer is talking out his ass. Sorry for being so blunt but my guess is the markup is greater on the scope hes trying to sell or its been sitting in his shop and no one else can afford to buy it. Leupolds have great optics. Hell our goverment puts them on sniper rifles.
GregGry
Member
This is the problem, your still new to the firearm world, and your trying to buy the best without understanding what the best really is, let alone good, better and best.
After a certain point you are going to hit the law of diminishing returns. I will compare you with a person that has an itch to play guitar. Sure you could buy a cheap 150$ guitar, or a 1,500$ guitar. Sure the 1,500 guitar will play better/sound better, but with a novice that can't even play 1 chord, the extra money spent isn't really going to give you a whole lot. My first guitar was a gibson SG, which I played and then sold after 2 years due to finances. I bought a Schecter a while after and it is actually a nicer guitar the the gibson was, and it was cheaper. Even said a nice 300$ guitar would be pretty good for my playing.
With scopes your dealing with the same thing. Fancy reticles, super magnification, super magnification ratios, huge lenses, coatings that almost allow you to see in the dark, etc. I could give you a barret 50 cal and a 2K dollar scope, yet you couldn't hit a pie plate at 700 yards easily. With your level of training, and the firearm your wanting to tackle long ranges, there really isn't a point to buy a 1,600 dollar scope. A 300 to 400$ scope will do everything you want.
I realize you want the best of the best. However you have to look at the big picture here. You have a rifle that isn't considered to be a long distance shooter (aka more then 500 yards). Your level of experiance is almost non existant. You need to invest thousands of dollars into training and pratice before you really need to worry about blowing 1,500$ on a scope. The 1,500 on the scope will be the least of your expense since a gun that deserves that kind of optics is going to cost you atleast 3 times that.
Trust me, a week after you blow more then 400$ on a scope for your rifle your not going to really feel happy about the purchase. It wont even give you braggin rights at the range since people will laugh at your accuracy. Its not going to make your groups much better (if at all). Why go into debt when you don't have to? Right now you have no pratical working knowledge about anything to do with the variables required to hit a target accurately at 300 yards, let alone beyond that. You should be thinking about buying a accurate .22lr rifle and a nice scope, then going to the range 3 times per week to pratice shooting at 25/50/75/100 yards until you can have all your shots be dead on at 100 yards in almost any conditions. Pratice, training, and pratice (yes I said it twice) are what you need to be worrying about.
GregGry
Member
Also, you seem to be blowing a lot of money on ammo and guns, which is great. However all of that means nothing if your either A) one of thoes people buying up firearms that will be banned so you can sell them for a profit or B) not willing to learn how to use them properly/to their capability.
Training is expensive. By time you cover basic rifle/pistol shooting classes, pratice, then go back for some "enhanced" classes your going to be well over 1K in the hole. You will be thrown out (or in a politicaly correct term "asked to leave" ) a serious long distance marksmanship class if you try to go to one before ever training on how to use a rifle in the first place. They will be discussing terms and theories that you have no working knowledge of.
Again this is why I see a 400 to 500$ scope is more then enough for you. Hell you already said you have a ACOG, thats likely going to be more scope then your capable of out shooting. Stay simple, and reasonble. Let your accuracy in a year from now do all the talking for you. Don't be the guy with the 3K rifle that gets outshot by a guy with iron sights. Be the guy that has mastered his rifle.
EDIT: Not that I haven't stressed it enough, but you need trigger time behind your rifle in all weather conditions. A lot of trigger time. A shooter with a crap scope and a 200$ rifle might be able to hit targets that no other man could if they picked up their rifle and shot it. There is something to be said about a shooter knowing his rifle so well that they know where the bullet is going to hit without needing 1000 adjustments. More scope is not worth a penny compared to trigger time and training. I was completely humbled to see shooters with iron sights hitting 600 yard targets, let alone the fact any man could possibly hit a 1,000 yard target with a muzzle loader.
Training is expensive. By time you cover basic rifle/pistol shooting classes, pratice, then go back for some "enhanced" classes your going to be well over 1K in the hole. You will be thrown out (or in a politicaly correct term "asked to leave" ) a serious long distance marksmanship class if you try to go to one before ever training on how to use a rifle in the first place. They will be discussing terms and theories that you have no working knowledge of.
Again this is why I see a 400 to 500$ scope is more then enough for you. Hell you already said you have a ACOG, thats likely going to be more scope then your capable of out shooting. Stay simple, and reasonble. Let your accuracy in a year from now do all the talking for you. Don't be the guy with the 3K rifle that gets outshot by a guy with iron sights. Be the guy that has mastered his rifle.
Extra skill is real important to make accurate shots over 150 yards.
EDIT: Not that I haven't stressed it enough, but you need trigger time behind your rifle in all weather conditions. A lot of trigger time. A shooter with a crap scope and a 200$ rifle might be able to hit targets that no other man could if they picked up their rifle and shot it. There is something to be said about a shooter knowing his rifle so well that they know where the bullet is going to hit without needing 1000 adjustments. More scope is not worth a penny compared to trigger time and training. I was completely humbled to see shooters with iron sights hitting 600 yard targets, let alone the fact any man could possibly hit a 1,000 yard target with a muzzle loader.
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gdcpony
Member
I can speak here and say that for an "everything" scope go with a 4-?. I just got rid of my last 6-24 as it was too slow. Now, I just got done doing a load work up and I used a 1.5-5 for that. That is a bit low for a 1000yd scope, but great for all around use. I shot 1000yds with a dedicated rifle and a 24x on it. no problem with vision and it was dialed down sometimes due to mirage in the Yuma heat. For the platform you are using a 4-16 should be perfect. Walk at 4 and zoom in if you need. My friend made the longest kill shot I have ever seen in person. He was using a 6x scope on a groundhog in a field.
Watch out for those cheap scopes! They are every bit as good as the person behind them. The one my friend uses was $50 and he has it on a $250 rifle. I used Swifts and loved them and recently Konus has impressed me.The Swifts ran about $300 and I would go to them again for another long range only rig. For my all around I have gone to the Konus Shotgun scope 1.5-5 and it has been abused (dropped, kicked, rolled over by a dying deer, bled on, and thrown into a truck bed) for 6 months and no change in zero yet.
I would put money on a well trained guy with cheap gear over a half trained guy with the most expensive stuff around.
my experience has been considerably different.
i let new shooters shoot my rifles all the time at long ranges. in a matter of minutes, kids are hitting steel.
i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one like this. I know that LongRangeInternational, which offers long range training and some of their guys post here regularly, have repeatedly stated that every one of their students gets on steel at 1000 yrds pretty quickly.
(btw, 4freedom, even though i haven't been able to get to one of their classes yet, I think their class would be just what you need to get started. you might even want to take their class before you buy a scope so you can look through all the scopes on the line and make a more informed decision)
and at the 1000 yrd NRA matches, i can't recall ever seeing a new shooter that couldn't at least get on paper
if someone hands you a good rifle with properly zeroed scope, and dials in the elevation and wind for you, it's pretty much just point and click.
but it can be VERY frustrating for you when you start with an unknown gun, a cheap scope, no idea what your zero is, no idea how to estimate the wind, no idea how fast your ammo is going or what its drop is at range... so the new shooter has no idea how to diagnose the problem because it could be anything.
my advice is to reduce as many variables as possible
Quote:
I was always told having extra magnification is real important for hitting targets over 500 yards or so, but I am not really sure
Really?
Pretty much anyone can make accurate shots with iron sights @ or beyond 500 yards.
I've made repeated head shots on a 400 yard steel target with a zero magnification EOTech.
A good variable magnification scope allows the shooter to better see the target,
ID the target and see the hits, but it really does not make you a better rifleman.
I was always told having extra magnification is real important for hitting targets over 500 yards or so, but I am not really sure
Really?
Pretty much anyone can make accurate shots with iron sights @ or beyond 500 yards.
I've made repeated head shots on a 400 yard steel target with a zero magnification EOTech.
A good variable magnification scope allows the shooter to better see the target,
ID the target and see the hits, but it really does not make you a better rifleman.
This. I have never understood the logic of some people that says that if you dont have experience, dont buy quality. It has been said many times that money doesnt buy skill, but it can buy quality. Why not do as taliv said and reduce the variables as much as possible so that you know if there are errors they are coming from you and not your equipment.
A couple of years ago when I was even more of a noobie than I am now I had a Bushmaster AR with a cheapo rear sight. I dont know what it was, maybe even an airsoft knockoff, hard to say. The problem was, it would sometimes lose adjustments and cause my POI to be high and to the left of my POA. I was at a particular rifle class and was getting SUPER frustrated because I was trying to learn the principles of better marksmanship, and because of this funky sight I would sometimes have problems that WERENT related to my shooting.
It took a couple of days and 2-3 different instructors before one of them realized that it wasnt all me. It was amazing how much faster I improved once they hooked me up with a little better equipment. Yes, I was not a very good rifle shot at the time, but I was having a hard time learning or getting any better because my equipment was not reliable.
I sure dont have the money to play with a lot of the toys I would like to, but one thing I have learned over the last few years is that even if I cant afford the best quality on something, I will wait to buy until I can afford something that is quality, even if it is not the BEST.
Speaking of them and budget/quality optics, you mentioned a few months ago that you were thinking about laying hands on one of the Pride-Fowler scopes that those guys speak so highly of. Did you ever get a chance to try one out? One of those might be of interest to the OP as well.
4Freedom, the guys who have taken and taught those courses at LRI have posted some pretty good reviews about their DPMS 308's, and they are certainly more than 500 yard rifle. Even the 16" barrel versions seems to do fine out to 800 yards (whereupon they go subsonic from what I have read.)
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
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taliv speaks very wisely. I say, go ahead and get the best you can afford - but you need to ask yourself - since you cannot get something for nothing - there's always a tradeoff - do you REALLY want to spend $1,600, or some lesser amount? Tell us the amount you actually realistically are willing to part with, in light of the facts that yes you do get DIMINISHING returns with every hundred spent, but you DO GET returns! Then we can recommend the best possible scope for that budget, given your use parameters. We might recommend X brand, Y model as the best value in the 1600 range, but then when you go to buy, you really only want to spend 1300, so you assume that X brand, Z model (cheaper but similar to Y model), when in reality, if we had known what the actual budget was, we would have recommended A brand, B model, not X, Z model for the best value in the $1,300 range, when you didn't even have A brand on the radar screen. So is it really $1,600? And are you willing to by used, or new only?
The diminishing return curve gets pretty steep after the $500-$800 range, so if you're asking "what will get it done spending as little as possible but still very high quality?", as you seem to indicate, then I'd look at that price range. But do you want that or a *little* better? Or a *little* better? Etc.
The most important things are durability (not breaking/losing zero), and tracking trueness & repeatability. Optical quality is a close third. We also need to know whether you're trying to get to 1000 with or withOUT a 20-30 MOA base?
The diminishing return curve gets pretty steep after the $500-$800 range, so if you're asking "what will get it done spending as little as possible but still very high quality?", as you seem to indicate, then I'd look at that price range. But do you want that or a *little* better? Or a *little* better? Etc.
The most important things are durability (not breaking/losing zero), and tracking trueness & repeatability. Optical quality is a close third. We also need to know whether you're trying to get to 1000 with or withOUT a 20-30 MOA base?
gdcpony
Member
Now that is good advice! I used to work on cars all the time and I always told people I could get them their first 50 (for argument's sake) horses relatively cheap. After that it costs more for each little increase. The same applies to everything in the world and optics are a fine example. Take out $50, $150, $300, $600, $900, and $1200 scopes. I bet any shooter will know the $50, most will know the $150, after that there will be very few who can put the rest in order. Most shooters aren't that good, don't look through that many scopes, and simply don't realize the minute differences.
I am not sure why people plead for help with something but obviously already have their mind made up and just really are looking for validation. Just buy the Leupold mk4 and be happy with it.
Honestly the mk4's are nice if I found a deal on another I would by one again but for the money you are talking you can truly get a world class scope it is a shame you are passing over so many exceptional options for the popular (though definitely capable) option.
Honestly the mk4's are nice if I found a deal on another I would by one again but for the money you are talking you can truly get a world class scope it is a shame you are passing over so many exceptional options for the popular (though definitely capable) option.
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