Searching for Long Range Scope for my DPMS LR-308.. PLEASE HELP
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GregGry
Member
So back to my question. What will the mark 4 do for him that a 500 to 600$ scope from Leupold wont do considering what he is looking at doing, his rifle, and his level of experience. If you guys consider a 500 to 600$ scope a starter scope that should be avoided I guess I am outclassed by 10 times when it comes to my shooting capability, and by 1000 times if I was new to medium range and beyond shooting.
Well, as someone that used his Mark 4 as a hunting optic this year, I'll start...
I particularly liked the fact that I was able to dial in range on one of my deer fields this year.
I have the field marked out at 100 yard increments from 100 yards to 600 yards. A couple weeks ago, I had several deer come out at approximately 475 yards. Had I chosen to take the shot (I didn't), it was a simple task for me to dial the pre-calibrated M3 knobs out to the 500 yard mark to compensate for the drop of my bullet-- no holdovers or figuring ballistics.
A couple minutes later, a buck came out at 150 yards. I was immediately able to dial back down to 200 yards. Because I have a "zero-stop," I could just quickly crank it down to the 100 yard zero and click back up for 200 yards.
Considering that my Mark 4 has the same lenses as the VX-III, I'd be looking at about a $650 comparison to the VX-III. Add M3 turrents to the VX-III and you bring that cost up by $125. And now lets factor in that mine is Illuminated. Add about $200 to the cost of that VX-III for that.
And in the end, you have a 1" tube on the VX-III which means that you'll have less adjustment range. So you better purchase a 20 MOA canted base from Badger Ordinance if you want to reach a bit further. That base is about $100.
See how that starts to work?
When I use the term "starter," I don't mean in terms of cost. I mean it in terms of fuction.
For instance...
I could fork out $500 on a Ziess Conquest and that would be a FINE, QUALITY optic. And soon I'd discover that it did not meet what I was trying to accomplish. Now I have to sell it.
Even if I sold it for what I paid for it, I'd be out shipping and time.
I'd rather get what would work from the on-set if I knew what I needed.
That isn't a question of cost-- its a question of capability.
-- John
GregGry
Member
I think thats what he needs to do most of all. It really seemed to me like he had/has a bad case of being in over his head with all the options. Its pretty easy to think a sub 800$ scope might be crap when there are a bunch at 1,500$ +. Just like when I shot a friend of mines 308 remington 700 many years back. I thought that must be the ultimate in accuracy since everyone else at the range was firing .22lr rifles at the time, and I was the only one shooting at 200 yards. I came home from my exciting first experience only to find out that target rifles were shooting in excess of 1,000 yards. It humbled me quite a bit. About that time I realized that movies were grossly incorrect with their portrayal of firearms.
Scope
I just went through all this as well, I bought a Nikon Tactical that only had 52 MOA so I returned it.
Buy the 4-14x50 Leupold TMR illuminated and don't look back.
thats what I plan to do, possibly even have one made in the custom shop with 1 MOA M3 Turrets..
Otherwise, there was a nightforce 3-15x50 on SH I think for $1200 wait for one of those, but you wont get illuminated so you can only shoot half the time. I like to be able to shoot anytime I want, just my preference.
Marines are shooting S&B 3-12x50 I believe illuminated, if you want to replicate the USMC day scope get a Burris XTR 3-12x50, I have owned 2 and they both had great glass. I had both illuminated and non-illuminated and you can buy them used for $600 or so watching the forums. Use a forum watching tool called www.elitedealseeker.com- this searches many forums up to the last 27 days and can find you a used scope.
I just went through all this as well, I bought a Nikon Tactical that only had 52 MOA so I returned it.
Buy the 4-14x50 Leupold TMR illuminated and don't look back.
thats what I plan to do, possibly even have one made in the custom shop with 1 MOA M3 Turrets..
Otherwise, there was a nightforce 3-15x50 on SH I think for $1200 wait for one of those, but you wont get illuminated so you can only shoot half the time. I like to be able to shoot anytime I want, just my preference.
Marines are shooting S&B 3-12x50 I believe illuminated, if you want to replicate the USMC day scope get a Burris XTR 3-12x50, I have owned 2 and they both had great glass. I had both illuminated and non-illuminated and you can buy them used for $600 or so watching the forums. Use a forum watching tool called www.elitedealseeker.com- this searches many forums up to the last 27 days and can find you a used scope.
I am pretty much thinking of getting the Leupold Mark IV 6-20 or 8-24, but I am will take time to review more options. I appreciate everyone's advice and even Greg's concern that I am over my head. I am not an expert, so I cannot really say who is right or wrong. However, I am thinking I would like to get a good tactical scope that can have all the features I need for quick targest acqusitions and various ranges and also have a good quality optic. Like a previous poster said, I rather blame my poor shooting on my lack of accuracy, rather than my scope. I think there is no harm in getting a Leupold, since it has a lifetime warranty and is transferrable. WHy settle for less?
The other suggestions of Bushnell and Burris also sound good, but I need to investigate their warranties. Since I live near Leupold headquarters, I think it has many advantages to me. I have heard so much good of Leupold Mark IV. I know that US Optics, S&B, Nightforce are pretty much better, but they exceed my price range. The LR-308 will be used as a long range sniper type of gun and I don't want any close range scope for it. I am hoping to shoot out far with it and plan on practicing with it. I am hoping I can do trips to eastern Oregon/Washington where there is lot of range and even start doing 1000 yard shoots. I am told a Leupold Mark IV can last a person a lifetime.
I plan on purchasing it in a few months. I have decided with the current craze on ammo, maybe my money will be better invested in ammo right now than scopes. However, I will get my scope soon, as I yearn to start shooting with my big LR-308 beast. It is just sitting their looking lonely and wants to be cuddled. I don't see long range scopes going up in price anytime soon, as I do with ammo. Thats a topic for another thread.
The other suggestions of Bushnell and Burris also sound good, but I need to investigate their warranties. Since I live near Leupold headquarters, I think it has many advantages to me. I have heard so much good of Leupold Mark IV. I know that US Optics, S&B, Nightforce are pretty much better, but they exceed my price range. The LR-308 will be used as a long range sniper type of gun and I don't want any close range scope for it. I am hoping to shoot out far with it and plan on practicing with it. I am hoping I can do trips to eastern Oregon/Washington where there is lot of range and even start doing 1000 yard shoots. I am told a Leupold Mark IV can last a person a lifetime.
I plan on purchasing it in a few months. I have decided with the current craze on ammo, maybe my money will be better invested in ammo right now than scopes. However, I will get my scope soon, as I yearn to start shooting with my big LR-308 beast. It is just sitting their looking lonely and wants to be cuddled. I don't see long range scopes going up in price anytime soon, as I do with ammo. Thats a topic for another thread.
I use to favor Bausch & lomb, but after bushnell took them over I just can't get myself to buy a high end bushnell, but thats a personal problem. From everything I've read, I should be looking at the new 6500 or the 4200 tactical. I saw a 6-24x50 4200 tactical go on ebay for $435, it had a 30mm tube and 80 moa, I should have bought it and been happy. that is a ton of scope for the money
litman252
Member
First, great thread, a little bit of the typical pissing in the weaties but great overall.
If you're still thinking of a "lessor" scope-http://www.swfa.com/pc-7281-185-bushnell-6-24x40-elite-4200-rifle-scope.aspx
Or next up-http://www.swfa.com/pc-9847-185-bushnell-6-24x50-elite-4200-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
I think it's a lot of glass for the dollar.
Bushnells Sight-http://www.bushnell.com/general/riflescopes_elite4200.cfm?section=Hunting
If your still going for the LEUPOLD MK4 6.5-20X50, I don't think there is a thing wrong with that either. Most here are WAY above my line of thinking, but I'm setting up my first rifle w/ targets in mind over 250 yards so I learned a lot as well.
While I do work in a little gun shop twice a month, I gain nothing from the above links, just trying to help, and learn.............
Tony
If you're still thinking of a "lessor" scope-http://www.swfa.com/pc-7281-185-bushnell-6-24x40-elite-4200-rifle-scope.aspx
Or next up-http://www.swfa.com/pc-9847-185-bushnell-6-24x50-elite-4200-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
I think it's a lot of glass for the dollar.
Bushnells Sight-http://www.bushnell.com/general/riflescopes_elite4200.cfm?section=Hunting
If your still going for the LEUPOLD MK4 6.5-20X50, I don't think there is a thing wrong with that either. Most here are WAY above my line of thinking, but I'm setting up my first rifle w/ targets in mind over 250 yards so I learned a lot as well.
While I do work in a little gun shop twice a month, I gain nothing from the above links, just trying to help, and learn.............
Tony
Skylerbone
Member
Freedom, I originally signed up (today) to this forum because I happened upon this thread. I wrote what can only be considered a diatribe to admonish the guilty herein only to be thwarted by a lack of sign in before typing. As it is later in the evening and my mood has calmed a bit, I will make an attempt at restraining myself while responding.
First things first: forget everything the internet has "taught" you, it lies, misinforms and allows unchecked egos a voice through anonymity. No one here has a 16" pen*s, I doubt there are any former marine scout snipers and "Nadia" from Russia is not want you for your so sexy to meet.
Second: anyone here who does shoot competition is commended for doing so. Having said that, do any of you get the feeling that Freedom isn't interested in precision shooting unless it can be purchased in an afternoon? I don't intend a personal attack here but rather a self-evaluation. Are you planning to buy a Sauer rifle? Is an Anschutz in your future? This leads me to point 3.
Third: You do not own, nor will you likely ever, a sniper rifle. The conehead at the gun shop ought to know better and I suspect he does, and should never misrepresent what he is selling. While your AR is a fine weapon for many practical situations and is capable of 1000 yard hits, it does not posses the accuracy of a WalMart sold Model 70. If you made your intentions clear to the seller (I suspect you picked the rifle) and he reassured you in that choice then shame on him.
Fourth: All is NOT lost if you act now. While not preferable, a few instructional videos can help you establish the fundamentals of good shooting. Another source might have been at arms length when you bought your rifle. Every guy in that place shoots. Ask questions. Ask for help. Think a stranger won't help? None of us know you (unless you're the 4Freedom Polaski who sat behind me in trig. my junior year?) (That was a joke, I have a dry sense of humor that comes with age). My suggestion is to hault your quest temporarily and do the above.
Fifth: You might consider purchasing a bolt action .22LR to practice with. While spewing 200 rounds down range with a centerfire might be fun, it gets expensive. What you spend on that in one day could easily translate into another rifle. How do I know? Many years ago I sold my beloved Ruger 77/22 and bought a Marlin 25N. The $400 I got for the Ruger more than covered the $87 price tag of the Marlin with plenty left over for a scope. I picked out a Bushnell 4x AO (this is my squirrel hunting gun) for $50 and I don't feel like I'm less of a shooter for it. I have missed one shot on countless squirrels since then (broke his jaw actually, I could hear him trying to bark at me afterward) and the second shot put him on the table. My point is that a bolt action can reinforce good mechanics and train your patience. If you want to spring for an expensive scope now then put it on a .22, then you're only out $100. Besides, everyone needs a .22 so keep it around and you can tell everyone on the forum you have, like, a bunch of guns.
Sixth: Once you've practiced your fundamentals you will be all smiles and ready to graduate from 40gr projectiles to 167gr projectiles. Remount your scope on the black rifle and spend your money on good ammo. Volume isn't always your friend. I try to shoot every week and with centerfire no more than 30 rounds. That's 10 three shot groups from 50-200 yards (hunting distance around here).
Seventh: Well we have to go back to third where you realized your AR wasn't a sniper rifle and choose an appropriate scope for it. Keep in mind that in this short period of time you have managed consistent groups at 200 plus yards with your .22 (as I know you are following the steps) and your centerfire will take you to 500 yards with what you already know. Certain reticles CAN be advantageous if used properly. They are nothing more than guaranteed miss if misunderstood. Everyone here has owned, used and taken 2000 yard shots with "insert EXPENSIVE BIG NAME SCOPE here" while in mantis position. (Actually I'm quite sure that two of those responding are capable of that distance but I think the rest just google too much, I'll not mention who's who in my book but I can spot a shooter from a mile away...ok from 20 paces). For you Freedom a caliber specific scope might be the simplist, most accurate choice. .308 offers you a variety of choices that won't require you to call Mrs. Stark (she was our math teacher) for a refresher course. Rather, you zero then turn a target knob to your desired magnification ie. 3 for 300 yards and your crosshair will be centered on target. How do you know your target is at 300 yards? Because you spent $500 on your scope which, along with the $200 you spent on your .22 rifle and two bricks of .22LR ammo and the 100 rounds of Hornady Custom 168gr BTHP you snagged for $130 you budgeted $400 for a laser range finder from Leupold you sly dog!
Finally, oh you would never make my 12 step program, that's why I'm giving the short version, if you MUST run out and spend money on a "we guarantee accuracy" scope, and I'm sure I'll catch hell for telling you that repeatable accuracy can be had for less than several thousand dollars (my $250 Sightron SII proves it can as does the $260 Hawke on my -06) I might recommend the Pride Fowler RR800-1, street price around $550. It's a FFP (point of impact and holdovers don't change as you adjust magnification), has 3-9x magnification which is more than enough to engage deer sized targets at 500 yards, gives you holdover points from 100-800 yards and uses the same reticle as the Zeiss Conquest series (which is a SFP and therefore makes poor use of this reticle). Same reticle, developed by P.F. and licensed for use in the Zeiss and Safariland (another FFP). With this scope you simply range your target with your handy new range finder, pick your holdover (they're labeled by yardage), adjust for windage (also built into the glass etched reticle) and fire. KISS. Look it up guys. No need to point people in the treacherous direction of Nirvana when all they're looking for is a nearby Appleby's
I hope all that rambling helps you. If not, I hope you'll seek out help from local shooters. I do sincerely wish you the best of luck in your search and keep in mind that whatever you buy will likely bring you pennies on the dollar if you sell it later, regardless of what you originally spent. Spend wisely. Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff. Good luck and good shooting.
First things first: forget everything the internet has "taught" you, it lies, misinforms and allows unchecked egos a voice through anonymity. No one here has a 16" pen*s, I doubt there are any former marine scout snipers and "Nadia" from Russia is not want you for your so sexy to meet.
Second: anyone here who does shoot competition is commended for doing so. Having said that, do any of you get the feeling that Freedom isn't interested in precision shooting unless it can be purchased in an afternoon? I don't intend a personal attack here but rather a self-evaluation. Are you planning to buy a Sauer rifle? Is an Anschutz in your future? This leads me to point 3.
Third: You do not own, nor will you likely ever, a sniper rifle. The conehead at the gun shop ought to know better and I suspect he does, and should never misrepresent what he is selling. While your AR is a fine weapon for many practical situations and is capable of 1000 yard hits, it does not posses the accuracy of a WalMart sold Model 70. If you made your intentions clear to the seller (I suspect you picked the rifle) and he reassured you in that choice then shame on him.
Fourth: All is NOT lost if you act now. While not preferable, a few instructional videos can help you establish the fundamentals of good shooting. Another source might have been at arms length when you bought your rifle. Every guy in that place shoots. Ask questions. Ask for help. Think a stranger won't help? None of us know you (unless you're the 4Freedom Polaski who sat behind me in trig. my junior year?) (That was a joke, I have a dry sense of humor that comes with age). My suggestion is to hault your quest temporarily and do the above.
Fifth: You might consider purchasing a bolt action .22LR to practice with. While spewing 200 rounds down range with a centerfire might be fun, it gets expensive. What you spend on that in one day could easily translate into another rifle. How do I know? Many years ago I sold my beloved Ruger 77/22 and bought a Marlin 25N. The $400 I got for the Ruger more than covered the $87 price tag of the Marlin with plenty left over for a scope. I picked out a Bushnell 4x AO (this is my squirrel hunting gun) for $50 and I don't feel like I'm less of a shooter for it. I have missed one shot on countless squirrels since then (broke his jaw actually, I could hear him trying to bark at me afterward) and the second shot put him on the table. My point is that a bolt action can reinforce good mechanics and train your patience. If you want to spring for an expensive scope now then put it on a .22, then you're only out $100. Besides, everyone needs a .22 so keep it around and you can tell everyone on the forum you have, like, a bunch of guns.
Sixth: Once you've practiced your fundamentals you will be all smiles and ready to graduate from 40gr projectiles to 167gr projectiles. Remount your scope on the black rifle and spend your money on good ammo. Volume isn't always your friend. I try to shoot every week and with centerfire no more than 30 rounds. That's 10 three shot groups from 50-200 yards (hunting distance around here).
Seventh: Well we have to go back to third where you realized your AR wasn't a sniper rifle and choose an appropriate scope for it. Keep in mind that in this short period of time you have managed consistent groups at 200 plus yards with your .22 (as I know you are following the steps) and your centerfire will take you to 500 yards with what you already know. Certain reticles CAN be advantageous if used properly. They are nothing more than guaranteed miss if misunderstood. Everyone here has owned, used and taken 2000 yard shots with "insert EXPENSIVE BIG NAME SCOPE here" while in mantis position. (Actually I'm quite sure that two of those responding are capable of that distance but I think the rest just google too much, I'll not mention who's who in my book but I can spot a shooter from a mile away...ok from 20 paces). For you Freedom a caliber specific scope might be the simplist, most accurate choice. .308 offers you a variety of choices that won't require you to call Mrs. Stark (she was our math teacher) for a refresher course. Rather, you zero then turn a target knob to your desired magnification ie. 3 for 300 yards and your crosshair will be centered on target. How do you know your target is at 300 yards? Because you spent $500 on your scope which, along with the $200 you spent on your .22 rifle and two bricks of .22LR ammo and the 100 rounds of Hornady Custom 168gr BTHP you snagged for $130 you budgeted $400 for a laser range finder from Leupold you sly dog!
Finally, oh you would never make my 12 step program, that's why I'm giving the short version, if you MUST run out and spend money on a "we guarantee accuracy" scope, and I'm sure I'll catch hell for telling you that repeatable accuracy can be had for less than several thousand dollars (my $250 Sightron SII proves it can as does the $260 Hawke on my -06) I might recommend the Pride Fowler RR800-1, street price around $550. It's a FFP (point of impact and holdovers don't change as you adjust magnification), has 3-9x magnification which is more than enough to engage deer sized targets at 500 yards, gives you holdover points from 100-800 yards and uses the same reticle as the Zeiss Conquest series (which is a SFP and therefore makes poor use of this reticle). Same reticle, developed by P.F. and licensed for use in the Zeiss and Safariland (another FFP). With this scope you simply range your target with your handy new range finder, pick your holdover (they're labeled by yardage), adjust for windage (also built into the glass etched reticle) and fire. KISS. Look it up guys. No need to point people in the treacherous direction of Nirvana when all they're looking for is a nearby Appleby's
I hope all that rambling helps you. If not, I hope you'll seek out help from local shooters. I do sincerely wish you the best of luck in your search and keep in mind that whatever you buy will likely bring you pennies on the dollar if you sell it later, regardless of what you originally spent. Spend wisely. Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff. Good luck and good shooting.
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