Seattle's Mayor Nickels Defends Gun Ban on City Property

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Well, being that all of the US is federal property, and the SCOTUS just said that we can have guns... his opinion ain't worth much.
 
our attorney general, Rob McKenna, is seemingly fairly gun-friendly. while not ideal, he reads the laws and interprets them as they are written and doesn't interject his own personal views. at least thats my observation. i think his opinion in this case would be helpful to our side.

Bobby
 
This is an update on the attempt by Seattle's mayor to create "gun-free zones" on all city property and preempt the laws of Washington State:


Mayor Nickels holds off on Seattle gun ban
By Sharon Pian Chan

Seattle Times staff reporter

As summer began, Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels said he was taking steps to prohibit guns on all city-owned property after three people were injured in a shooting at Seattle Center's Northwest Folklife festival.

But as the Center's summer festival season concludes with Bumbershoot this weekend, no prohibition has taken effect.

"It's very complex. The city owns numerous properties citywide and in some areas outside of the city," said Regina LaBelle, legal counsel for the mayor. "We are going through all of those properties and developing a legally defensible rule."

In the state Legislature, representatives and senators have asked state Attorney General Rob McKenna to issue an informal legal opinion on whether state law pre-empts Nickels' executive order. That opinion may be ready by the end of September.

McKenna's office says such nonbinding opinions have historically been given great weight by the courts.

Also, the Second Amendment Foundation and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, both based in Bellevue, have notified Nickels they intend to mount a legal challenge to the executive order.

On Memorial Day weekend, Clinton Chad Grainger, a Snohomish man with a history of drug addiction and schizophrenia, fired a gun during a fight at the music festival, wounding three other people. Grainger, who this month pleaded guilty to two counts of third-degree assault, had a concealed-weapon permit.

Two weeks after the shooting, Nickels signed an executive order directing city departments to report back within 30 days with a plan on how to make city facilities — parks, Seattle Center, community centers, buildings — gun free. They have reported back, and the mayor's office is now drafting an administrative rule.

The mayor said the city eventually would post signs prohibiting guns, which has yet to happen. The city wouldn't be able to arrest people for violating the policy, but it could charge violators with trespassing. Law-enforcement officials would be exempt.

Many immediately questioned whether the city could pre-empt state law governing firearms. In Washington state, cities cannot go beyond state law restricting firearms.

Nickels believes the door for exceptions was opened by a 2006 state Supreme Court ruling case involving the city of Sequim. The court ruled that Sequim could regulate gun sales at a show held at a city-owned miniconvention center.

State Rep. Kevin Van De Wege, D-Sequim, is one of the legislators requesting the opinion from the attorney general.

"It's not like we're picking at Seattle, but I think we would have numerous jurisdictions having numerous different rules and it would create great confusion," he said.

In his district, Van De Wege said, the city of Montesano in Grays Harbor County tried to pass a local law restricting firearms, which was vetoed by the mayor there.

LaBelle said the city plans to hold a public hearing on the issue, but no date has been set.

"We're trying to ensure the safety of the residents of the city and visitors to the city," she said. "We're taking what we believe are common-sense steps to do that."
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Why is it that people with a radical agenda always seem to believe that their position is only "common sense". If it were common sense, wouldn't the vast majority of intelligent people recognize it as such?
 
This will fail. The Sequim case was about the city-owned Sequim convention center using its leasing contract to specify to all organizations leasing the center that it was to be a "gun free" zone per the contract. It was not about a local law applicable to all citizens. The WA Supreme Court stressed the difference. Seattle's mayor (and city attorney) needs a clue, or a remedial reading course.
 
Here is an update on Mayor Bobblehead's (if you've seen him speak you know what I mean) gun-ban proposal. It is disheartening to realize that so many seemingly intelligent people (by that I mean they can tie their shoes and feed themselves) continue to believe this nonsense in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Fortunately, in Washington State, we still have an Attorney General and some state senators that can read and have genuine common sense (as opposed to the "common sense" gun restrictions so loved by gun-banners).

Mayor moves forward on gun ban plan
McKenna says state law applies
By LEVI PULKKINEN
P-I REPORTER

An unequivocal "no" from the state Attorney General's Office is often enough to shoot down a city proposal.

Not so with a move by Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels to ban legally permitted handguns from city-owned parks and buildings, an effort that, if successful, could shatter a 47-year-old state prohibition against cities' regulation of firearms.

The Mayor's Office continues to build a case for the ban despite an Oct. 14 opinion issued by Attorney General Rob McKenna's office arguing that the city cannot pre-empt state gun law. The mayor hopes to introduce an administrative order next month.

"The cities are the ones on the front lines of this issue," said Regina LaBelle, legal counsel to the mayor. "We always have to keep in mind not just state law but also federal laws. But our bottom line is that we want to have common-sense gun laws."

Gun-control supporters have long targeted so-called "pre-emption" laws that keep gun regulation out of the hands of city lawmakers, who often are more inclined to create restrictions than their state and federal counterparts. Nickels' push represents a bright spot for gun-control advocates who've largely been stymied for more than a decade and watched this year as a string of high-profile shootings failed to elevate the issue in the national political campaigns or state races.

Nickels' move was widely criticized by supporters of gun rights, who saw it as both wrongheaded and outside the mayor's mandate. That view is shared by Rep. Kevin Van De Wege, a Sequim Democrat who asked the attorney general to review Nickels' proposed ban.

"We quickly realized that he can't do that, that it would be illegal," Van De Wege said. "Even people who don't like guns can see the point here that we can't have every municipality having different gun regulations."

The past eight years have been marked by stagnation or backward movement for gun-control advocates, said Ladd Everitt, communications director for the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

President Bush allowed limits on assault weapons and other firearms to expire. In response to a scathing Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives report, Congress severely curtailed the agency's ability to share information on guns used in crime. And, though it received mixed reviews on both sides of the gun question, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed a constitutional right to individual gun ownership.

A Democratic majority in the House of Representatives offered no relief for gun-control proponents.

"Anyone who thought this Democratic Congress was going to be strong on gun issues was sadly mistaken," Everitt said. "That said, I think that Barack Obama gets this, understands the balancing act" between the views of rural and urban Americans on the issue.

Some gun owners fear what Obama and a stronger Democratic Congress might do. Gun stores across the nation report a surge in business since Tuesday's election, attributing it to buyers worried that their ability to obtain firearms might be curtailed.

The Virginia Tech massacre did prompt Congress to improve the flawed national database used to perform background checks on gun buyers. If funded, the improvement package should ensure that more states submit mental health information to the system, said Eric Nelson, an assistant attorney general representing the Department of Social and Health Services.

As the system currently stands, most states fail to identify mentally ill individuals who've been confined against their will in the federal system. As a practical matter, Nelson said, that means someone institutionalized in Oregon or another state would pass a background check in Washington.

"It certainly is the case that not every state is submitting mental health records," Nelson said. "If FedEx can track a package around the world, how is it that the state and federal authorities can't track these prohibitive records?"

Washington began submitting records to the system in 2004, Nelson said. But the state background-check system remains fragmented, with each of the state's 291 police agencies charged with conducting state background checks for concealed pistol licenses.

Arriving at the Northwest Folklife Festival on May 24, 22-year-old Clinton Chad Grainger carried both his pistol and a concealed-weapons permit issued to him despite a history of mental illness. Hours later, he shot and wounded two people during an altercation.

The accidental shooting prompted Nickels to propose a ban on all guns from city-owned parks and buildings. That effort, LaBelle said, is still under way despite the attorney general's opinion.

LaBelle said the city needs greater "clarity" on state law, either from the Legislature or through the courts. She said the Mayor's Office has found 39 other Washington cities that already have restrictions on the books, which shows the issue is far from settled.

The opinion followed the line thought to be enshrined in a 1961 law stating that local gun rules "inconsistent" with state law are "pre-empted and repealed." Expressing a view backed by the attorney general's finding, Van De Wege said state law bans local governments from regulating guns.

Speaking more broadly, Van De Wege said he doesn't see a need for tighter restrictions on guns. The decline in crime rates around the state, he said, shows additional rules aren't needed.

"My concern, and I think a lot of my constituents' concern, is that we're going to end up punishing a lot of law-abiding citizens," he said. "They feel most comfortable carrying a gun, and they want to be able to do that."

LaBelle said the city is looking at only a single change. But she said city officials deserve the authority to protect citizens.

"The mayor has asked repeatedly for the Legislature to allow local representatives to create laws they think are right for their cities," she said. "It's obvious that it's a local concern."

The Mayor's Office plans to release an administrative order later this month in line with the earlier proposal. A public hearing would then take place in early December.
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what i dont understand is why they are "restricting" guns in seattle and the same time laying off how many LEO's and canceling so many LE programs like gangs, rape, homicide, etc.

i know quite a few LEO's and they all know i carry, and they know when i go to seattle i WILL carry anyways, ill take a tresspassing ticket to feel secure when im in my own city that i pay my taxes in.

i agree there should be a country wide system for mental illness checks for CCW's, but this is bull****.
 
As an example of the fallacy of a "safer" Seattle when guns are no longer allowed on city property:

Recently our beloved "Tuba Man" - a fixture outside sporting events in this town for the last 20 years or so - was beaten and robbed by a gang of juvenile thugs right outside the Seattle Center (city property). Sadly, he died nine days later from his injuries. This was a happy, harmless man who played the tuba for the fans who in turn supported him with cash donations.

The three punks who have been apprehended so far will be adjudicated as juveniles and likely be on the streets again (if they are convicted at all) before their 21st birthday. We have all read story after story like this - about young miscreants who DON'T go to prison for the rest of their lives.

The Seattle Center and other city properties are a draw for these "misguided youths" looking for easy marks. I'll be damned if I will be victimized without ridding the city of at least one or two if I can.

I too will take the trespassing citation rather than leave myself and my wife defenseless.
 
I just need help with this one question;


When I joined the Military I swore an oath. Something about upholding and defending.....


When an elected official is sworn in doesn't he/she take a similar oath?Something about executing the duties of office and the law of the land, right?

Why doesn't some one sue these characters for dishonoring that commitment. There must be some charge they could be brought up on in civil court; for example if the Mayor of Podunk decided he wanted to segregate the school system? What would be the charge?

What would a civil suit BE against an elected individual who used the force of the local P.D. to shut down a newspaper?

How about the Policeman who stopped "certain" people from coming onto city property for an event...

Anybody know?
 
Those are good questions, Sniper. The most galling thing is that our mayor seems to believe he has a right to abrogate state law in order to enact a "common-sense" gun ban.

And he has apparently decided to go ahead despite being told in no uncertain terms that it is illegal.

How is that different than a mayor deciding to usurp federal and state law to segregate a school, as you suggested?
 
Here is an update on Mayor Bobble-Head's gun ban proposal:

Mayor's firearms proposal draws fire at hearing
By Charles E. Brown

If Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels' proposed firearms policy is on track to become law by executive order, little short of a successful legal challenge is likely to derail it.

The proposal has its supporters. And sidetracking it may be an uphill battle.

Still, that didn't stop Keli Carender from trying at a public hearing Monday night.

"Any sort of ban is gun control," she said, after speaking for her allotted 90 seconds against the measure. Moments later she told a newspaper reporter: "It's the same old argument going around and around." Carender said she is among those "trying to protect their right to keep and bear arms."

Earlier this year, Nickels directed all city departments to "study the adoption and enforcement of policies, rules and contractual agreements" that would prohibit possession of firearms and other dangerous weapons on city property.

If such a ban had been in place eight months ago, a Memorial Day weekend shooting at the city's Folklife Festival at Seattle Center might have been avoided, Nickels' mayoral aide Alex Fryer said.

[It never ceases to amaze me that these people believe that a sign is going to avert violent felons from doing their evil deeds.]

Nickels' proposed administrative rule would ban possession of firearms on most city property, with some exceptions. It does not require City Council approval.

The proposal includes no specific criminal or civil penalties, but anyone refusing to comply could be cited or arrested for criminal trespass.

[So...are they going to gate off all public spaces and put metal detectors at the entrances? Are they going to wear x-ray glasses to spot all the concealed weapons? OF COURSE I DON'T ADVOCATE BREAKING THE LAW...but I will gladly comply by leaving if I am ever in the position of being detected with a concelaed weapon on city property.]

The public hearing Monday night at Seattle City Hall opened the proposal to public comment. Nearly 200 people attended, and more than 70 signed up to speak.

To Carender, a 29-year-old South Seattle resident, Nickels' proposal violates the U.S. Constitution and state law. "It also opens the gate to tyranny,"she said.

[YOU GO, GIRL!]

According to Public Health — Seattle & King County statistics, as recently as two years ago firearms were the fourth-leading cause of injury-related death in King County.

[No doubt as a result of criminal activity with illegally possesed firearms - but let's pass more laws that are totally innefective.]

Tony Gomez, the health department's manager for chronic diseases and injury prevention, called the unchecked possession of weapons a complex public-health problem and said Monday night "it's a public safety problem." The health department supports the measure.

Carender questioned whether the mayor has authority to prohibit guns on public property. "I wouldn't be surprised if there was a legal challenge," she said.

[I think we can count on a legal challenge.]
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I wish I had gone and thrown a shoe. The roads were too icy, and I don't like jail. There is a special layer of hell reserved for this guy.
 
They're at it again...

Gun ban in time for Folklife Festival?
By Emily Heffter

Seattle Times staff reporter

After a shooting at last year's Northwest Folklife Festival left three people injured, Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels vowed to outlaw guns in city buildings, parks and Seattle Center.

The proposal has languished for almost a year, with the state Attorney General's Office saying the mayor lacks the authority to prohibit guns on city property, a Second Amendment group threatening to sue and questions continuing as to what the policy would really accomplish.

With another Northwest Folklife approaching on Memorial Day weekend, a spokesman for Nickels said the mayor is moving ahead with an executive order this spring and is prepared to defend it in court.

Even if the order is not in place, the May 22-25 festival will be gun-free through the city's lease with festival organizers. Signs posted at the Seattle Center event will remind people not to bring guns, and security will be trained to take firearms away or ask people to leave, says Alex Fryer, a Nickels spokesman.

The new city order would apply even to people who have a state permit allowing them to carry a concealed weapon. Without a permit, it's already illegal in Washington to carry a concealed weapon in public.

Fryer said the city's parks are already safe, but he pointed out that the shooter at last year's Folklife Festival had a permit to carry his weapon.

"We believe that our parks and community centers and open spaces are safer without guns," Fryer said.

The new rule wouldn't have any criminal penalties. People caught with a weapon would be asked to surrender the weapon or leave city property. If they refuse, they could be cited for trespassing, Fryer said.

Alan Gottlieb, the founder of the Bellevue-based Second Amendment Foundation, said the new rule won't make parks any safer.

"Criminals who don't abide by the law to begin with aren't going to follow this law either," he said.

His organization plans to sue the city whenever the mayor issues his order. The group contends only the state has the authority to limit gun possession.

"This is really stupid, and it shows the fact that the mayor doesn't care about wasting taxpayer dollars to push his own agenda," Gottlieb said.

Fryer said the cost of a lawsuit would be worth it if the new policy saves even one life.

Washington state law says cities can't restrict firearms beyond state law. But Nickels says a 2006 state Supreme Court ruling — involving an event in Sequim which that city wanted to declare gun-free — clears the way for Seattle to restrict firearms on its own property.

Fryer said a number of cities around the state have banned firearms on some property.

Seattle City Council President Richard Conlin said the council is generally supportive of the proposal. "It seems clear to me that we should have the ability to regulate these weapons on our own property," he said.

Meanwhile, the city is training Folklife security workers in its new policy, and a spokeswoman for the festival said this year's will be "the safest ever."
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"...common sense legislation that would protect our citizens..."

Those are the eight most dangerous words in the English language.
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Along with these ten words:

...worth it if the new policy saves even one life...
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By their logic, streets would be safer with no cars - and banning them would be worth it if it saved even one life.
 
...we should have the ability to regulate these weapons on our own property...
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Yeah, I was astonished at the hubris of such a statement.

The mayor and the city council apparently believe they can do whatever they want with their "property".

They should be required to pay the cost of the lawsuits out of their own pockets.
 
common sense legislation

Ah, the politically correct buzzwords of a new generation, or maybe I'm not old enough to realize he lifted them from an older generation.

"Common sense" isn't scientific, and since our fancy new leaders are putting their faith in science, we need to leave "common sense" behind.
 
Rainbowbob,

Both letters you wrote were eloquent, well thought out, and stated our side's case extremely well. Probably won't make a difference to Mr. Nickels. He doesn't deal in facts.

+1
 
The new rule wouldn't have any criminal penalties. People caught with a weapon would be asked to surrender the weapon or leave city property. If they refuse, they could be cited for trespassing, Fryer said.
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From a practical point of view, his order is a request, not an order and does not have the force of law. No one should be concerned about carrying because the chance that it would be detected will be almost nil and no penalties if it is.
 
...the chance that it would be detected will be almost nil and no penalties if it is.
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I agree. I would avoid the Folklife Festival and the Seattle Center alltogether if it weren't for my family memebers who are performing. I may skip it anyway.

Some of you may be aware that a local icon "The Tuba Man" was recently brutally beaten to death at the Seattle Center by a gang of "kids".

We'll all be so much safer if we're disarmed.

And those kids will be out of juvenile detention by the next Folklife Festival.
 
rainbowbob said:
Although it may seem counter-intuitive, it can be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that an increase in the number of firearms available in a community has no negative correlation with the level of violent crime. In fact, the opposite appears to be true based on several large-scale studies of the subject. Although I will not make the claim that more guns in a community are responsible for reductions in violent crime; I can say that in most every city in which concealed permits are issued on a “shall issue” basis – violent crime has gone down – not up

On the other hand, if you cannot provide any evidence to the contrary – you should immediately cease and desist from infringing the rights of the citizens of our beloved city by making it illegal to defend oneself against criminal violence on city-owned property.
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These are money paragraphs and should be used any time carry restrictions are fought anywhere.

The proper argument isn't "More guns, less crime" or showing any societal benefit to loosening carry regulations, it is rather:

1) There is no documentable evidence (from 48 states and decades of experience and studies) that loosening carry restrictions increases crime or misuse,

and;

2) per our Constitution and system of government the burden is always on those seeking to restrict a right to prove that the restriction will make things quantifiably better (safer).

All we need to "prove", which we can 8 ways from Sunday using unimpeachable studies and sources, is that nothing will change for the worse if carry restrictions are eased. The status quo is freedom, not restriction.
 
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