The Fallacy Of the .45?

[CZF]

I don't mind reading or even starting a caliber debate, as long as there
are facts set forth by all parties.

The .45 ACP is a grand cartridge in both antiquated Hardball and
modern Hollow-Point versions.

With the technology of the new 9mm loads and other calibers.. Does the .45 still have a great advantage in stopping power?

Will a .45 ACP bullet penetrate car windshield/glass better than a 9mm?

No doubt that in FMJ form the .45 ACP will be a winner over the NINE
in the eyes of many.

Some cops I know in a very hot country with a high crime rate and incidents
of gun battles, used to complain about 9mm (hardball) stopping power.
Since they adopted a bullet similair to what the Dutch Police and others
in Europe carry. Both stopping power and officer confidence has risen.

The same load in 9mm/40/ and .45 ACP has proven to be very efficient
in the hands of residents that shoot in defensive scenarios.

Some folks will tell you that .45 is KING and that 9mm is for pansies.

Others will say that ALL Handgun rounds lack stopping power. so you should
pick what you shoot the best. High-capacity is an added bonus in favor of
the 9mm and .40/.357 SIG.

With all of the clamor about the 1911 and various .45 JHP loads.
I wonder why a world reknown Instructor carries a Glock or SIG
in .357 SIG?? Truly, he could/can afford the best 1911 and carry ammo.
Is there something wrong with that picture?

What do YOU carry and why? should I be considered poorly armed with
my 10-shot RAMI and +P ammo?

 

[Erich]

I've worked on a lot of killings by handguns and on a lot of failed killings by handguns. Handguns generally aren't that wonderful. I've seen people killed by .32s and live after being shot repeatedly with .45s. Handguns aren't death rays.

It's like real estate: location, location, location. (And penetration seems to be very important in the killings I've dealt with.)

 

[R.H. Lee]

Here we go again..................

I think Erich bottom-lined it. There is no significant difference between one major handgun caliber and another. The "best" is subjective; it means what is best for you. The platform is more important than the cartridge.
I like the 1911A1 in .45 acp.

 

[gbelleh]

Personally, I don't believe there is much difference between the major calibers. I carry either 9mm or .45, usually Gold Dots 230 gr, or 124 gr +p in 9mm. Anything smaller than 9mm, I carry FMJ to try to increase the likelihood of adequate penetration. I would be comfortable carrying a RAMI with +p ammo.

 

[Standing Wolf]

It's like real estate: location, location, location.

Yep. A .380 ACP in the right location beats a .500 magnum superficial flesh injury.

I personally favor the .357 and .44 magnums over all other cartridges, and carry the former—but I'd be a fool if I believed caliber is more than an incidental factor.

 

[Jim K]

An old friend once separated pistol cartridges into two groups - those that "do real damage" and those that "just punch a hole and let stuff run out". He claimed that within those two groups, there was little difference.

Maybe he had a point.

Jim

 

[Zak Smith]

Summary of FBI-protocol terminal ballistic data, sorted by average wound volume

-z

 

[stans]

I think 9mm fmj with a round nose profile would penetrate sheet metal and maybe glass better than the 45 ACP fmj load. Smaller diameter at higher velocity usually means deeper penetration. Against soft targets, probably very little, if any, difference.

 

[Hal]

Some folks will tell you that .45 is KING and that 9mm is for pansies.

Hal's simplified view.
Paper pushers and theorists always point out the merits of sub calibers during lul periods. SHTF - and the first thing that goes up is caliber size.

 

[Grunt]

9mm, especially in it's military FMJ loading is sort of like the M-1 carbine of the the pistol world. It's lighter than the .45 ammo, you can carry more of it with you, it's an accurate round and the recoil isn't all that heavy. Yeah, it's a great little round until you need to use it for real!

 

[MrAcheson]

Paper pushers and theorists always point out the merits of sub calibers during lul periods. SHTF - and the first thing that goes up is caliber size.

We've been through how many wars and actions with 9mm and 5.56? A bunch. I don't see caliber going up anytime soon. A big maybe might be a switch to .40 S&W, but the military will never go back to .45acp because the soldiers don't want to trade off the magazine capacity.

People talk about new calibers during lull periods because you don't change horses in mid stream. If you're in a war and what you have works, then make a lot of it, use up, repeat.

Now .45acp is a great round. The problem is that its not worth 2 rounds of 9mm by any quantifiable measure and when you add capacity into the analysis that is what you are talking about.

 

[Edmond]

To me, the best cartridge is the one that you can shoot well; be it 9mm, .45 acp or .357, whatever...

 

[Mntneer35745]

As others have said, if you can do your part, caliber is not a major issue. 9mm/.357 is a "velocity killer." .45 ACP is a "momentnum killer." Either will stop an attacker they just do it in different ways. It's like saying which is deadlier: taking an icepick in the chest, or getting hit with a sledgehammer in the chest?

Answer: it doesn't matter because you are dead either way.

Hope that helps
Mntneer357

 

[Erich]

Well, they only kill (fast enough to matter for our purposes - in self-defense situations) when they do either enough trauma to the central nervous system or blood-bearing organs/vessels.

'Answer: it doesn't matter because you are dead either way."

I wonder if even most people shot with handguns quickly die or are stopped. Where you hit really seems to be what matters, and whether you hit deep enough to cut something important. I think discussion of penetration is very important, and expansion/caliber somewhat less so. Bullet mass and velocity in and of themselves dosn't seem to matter, except as they influence these other factors.

It's the hole (depth and size), and the location of the hole that appears to determine whether a target stops . . . not the cartridge or the caliber or the recoil or kinetic energy or Ed Sanow's phone number or the momentum or the mass of the bullet or whether the safety is on the frame or the slide or the trigger or whether a cartridge "starts with a 4 or ends with a 'magnum'," etc., etc.

 

[natedog]

I've been thinking about this myself. That chart looks VERY useful, but someone needs to bust out with Excel and make it easier to read.

9x19 Win Ranger PG |124@1015, 18.0 mv, 283 E|BR 12.5", 0.65", 4.15cu|CL 14.0", 0.61", 4.09cu|avg 4.12, 2.67 re, 1.54

That load seems to give you the best would diameter/recoil ratio, while also having enough penetration. What is this load marketed as by Winchester? Can't seem to find it anywhere.

 

[nero45acp]

I wonder if in a couple of centuries they'll be arguing which frequency and wavelength is the "best" for the personal defense laser?





nero

 

[Majic]

People need to realize all those numbers are nothing but advertisements. Place any bullet in the right place and you will accomplish your goal. Forget all the number charts that everyone has and spend time learning to place bullets exactly where you want them to go.
Those numbers never stopped the first attack. They just pry money out of your pockets.

 

[Treylis]

We've been through how many wars and actions with 9mm and 5.56? A bunch. I don't see caliber going up anytime soon. A big maybe might be a switch to .40 S&W, but the military will never go back to .45acp because the soldiers don't want to trade off the magazine capacity.

I thought that the military was looking to move up to 6.8mm with the XM-8 in a few years?

 

[R.H. Lee]

I wonder if in a couple of centuries they'll be arguing which frequency and wavelength is the "best" for the personal defense laser?

I can see it now. The 2204 edition of Guns and Ammo featuring a shootout between the "9 Watt Mini Laser" and the "45 Watt Mega Blaster".

Might go something like this:

"We put the Mini through it paces, ants, beetles, the usual. We discovered it to be disappointingly small. At best, we could only fry 3-4 ants at one time. Beetles, being larger, were even worse, we could only annihilate one at a time. Sometimes, it even took more than one shot to turn the little guy into charcoal. Bob, my associate for these tests even tried removing some errant nose hairs with the mini, but upon inspection, they were only slightly singed.

The Mega, on the other hand, exceeded even our expectations. One blast from this bad boy fried dozens of ants. Several beetles found themselves within the kill zone of one shot, and it even took off the legs of surrounding beetles. Needless to say, we were impressed. Bob, wisely, declined the nose hair test for the Mighty 45.

Some proponents of the Mini 9 point to it higher shot capacity given equal batteries. But we say, why bother? History tells us the 9mm smokeless cartridge was abandoned back around 2010 due to its failure to perform.
Go with the 45 Watt Mega Blaster and don't look back.

Those who do not learn from history.........well, you know

 

[Erich]

 

[JohnK]

Does the .45 still have a great advantage in stopping power?

It depends on who's numbers you look at and who's you belive. You know what they say, lies, damn lies and statistics.

Marshalls Stopping Power data. According to Evan Marshalls results the 45 ACP is still ahead of the 9mm. I used to read all the articles about "stopping power" the latest greatest bullet and so on. Now I still read them occationally, but I don't worry about it. I pick whatever JHP feeds in my gun and shoots accurately and call it good. As others have said shot placement comes first, if you can't get the bullets where they need to go "stopping power" doesn't matter.

I carry Corbon 115gr +P 9mm, or Corbon 200gr JHP 45 ACP, or Federal 125gr 357 Magnum, or 158gr LSWC 38 Specials, depends on my mood when I pick a gun for the day.

 

[Mil Novecientos Once]

I carry Hardball most of the time because it is what I practice with the most. I know how it recoils, the POA-POI is always the same, and most important; it feeds 100% of the time. The only JHP that has not caused any malfunction in my gun is Speer's Gold Dot 230gr, I have shot close to 200 rounds of it, no malfunctions so far. I could consider it as a carry round only after 1,000 rounds with ZERO malfunctions.

IMNSHO overpenetration is a myth (overpenetration has been documented with FMJ 9mm, NYPD, and rifle bullets.) I would not worry about overpenetration, I worry about HITTING the threat and not MISSING it.

BTW "they all fall to hardball" is another myth. They fall because of well placed shots regardless of caliber or bullet shape.

If Hardball stopped and killed dozens of enemies during WWI and WW2, as well as other conflicts, why many people think that it is an obsolete and "antiquated" choice for carry purposes?

 

[Josey]

I have witnessed Keith-style 158 gr 38 Specials OVERPENETRATE from snubs. A couple of holes, threat was still mobile and still a threat. Multiple 9MM hits slowed the threat and the threat bled out. I have made one shot kills with 9MM. I carried a 1911 in 45 ACP for years. Intimidation factor was there. Stopping power was there. The expansion was there. The truth is, I prefer a 18" barrel 12 bore loaded with #4. Massive trauma and instant hypovolemic shock.

 

[mec]

Everybody should make up his own theory of stopping power and do so with the confidence that it is as valid as anything he has read.

The truth may be out there but with all the stopping power gurus out there yelling "liar" at each other there's no way of telling. The game seems to b about vested interests- either a financial interest in the ammunition itself or the desire to sell books and magazines.

 

[P0832177]

I tend to think that you have to be able to hit your target, and that requires practice! No excuses, ie 45 super whacker or 9mm sub whacker, will over come the inability of the operator to put the rounds on target. But, with all the armchair commandos out their this makes for good fodder!