Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians

[cheygriz]

The events at Waco are a good example of what happens when one group of heavily armed crazies is confronted by another group of heavily armed crazies.

My friend, you just hit the nail on the head!!!

 

[JamisJockey]

This is because there was evidence that David Koresh was molesting children in the compound. A fact that is often overlooked in the debate. Why the ATF and not another agency was there I do not necessarily know, but I assume they just assumed jurisdiction because of the weapons violations.

Therein lies the rub...there was no warrant for firearms violations....therefore the ATF did not have jurisdiction. They wanted a standoff and they wanted to become the big boys on the block....

 

[ballistic gelatin]

Well at least they put the "offering plate" to good use by purchasing firearms. My church purchases paper and pens and stuff like that....

 

[rock jock]

I had a rather long response to this thread, but I decided long ago that the fervor with which those who cling to the conspriacy theories of Waco hold to their beliefs is akin to a religion, and for the same reasons.

 

[Jesse308]

Alduro, what source did you get this info from?

 

[orangeninja]

"Alduro, what source did you get this info from?"


Believe it or not www.about.com I was looking up information on Hi Powers because I've been thinking of getting one. Do a search, I'm sure you'll find it.

 

[olyAR73]

This is because there was evidence that David Koresh was molesting children in the compound. A fact that is often overlooked in the debate. Why the ATF and not another agency was there I do not necessarily know, but I assume they just assumed jurisdiction because of the weapons violations.

gov.com did a stellar job of intervening on behalf of the "children".

Would someone please define "live genade?" Smoke, frag, WP?
The government is so full of BS. They've been trying to cover they're tracks since day one. The FBI ADMITTED to altering evidence.

 

[Jesse308]

Thanks, Alduro

 

[WilderBill]

I think most of that list is BS.
Does anyone else remember the day after the fire was out, when the media was first allowed in?
There, for all the world to see, was a perfect M1919 machine gun, with tripod, sitting atop the rubble.
Odd that it wasn't even covered in smoke?!
You'd think that if they had something like that, that they woulda used it at some point, huh?

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

How could anyone identify all of that stuf after the raging fire that destroyed the place? Did they sift through the ash afterwards to sort the gun-bits out of the rest of the debris? What about the ammunition and grenades, wouldn't they explode or something in such a fire?

I'm not trying to support any kind of conspiracy, or suggest that the list is bogus. I'm just curious. Could that stuff actually be identified after a fire? If so, how? Is forensic science really that good?

 

[DMF]

Therein lies the rub...there was no warrant for firearms violations....therefore the ATF did not have jurisdiction. They wanted a standoff and they wanted to become the big boys on the block....

BS, there were TWO warrants. An arrest warrant for Vernon Howell, for the federal firearms violations, and a search warrant to look for the illegal full auto weapons, and grenades. However, ATF was not just going to ignore other crimes, including evidence of child abuse.

The two warrants, also makes this "pick him up in town" stuff pure BS, also. They had to go out to "Ranch Apocalypse" (as Howell liked to call it), because they had to search for the weapons.

Here's how it works folks, when the feds go to the federal magistrate for a warrant, they tell the judge everything, including stuff that establishes probable cause on state charges, in addition to the federal charges. Same thing happens when the state LEOs go to the magistrate, they don't just ignore the federal violations, they tell the judge everything in addition to the state charges.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, mistakes were made in the raid, the deaths in the raid, and at the end of the 51 day stand off were tragedies, but let's not pretend the ATF didn't have a reason to be there serving both those warrants. Let's also not pretend that the tragedy was not started by Vernon Wayne Howell and his followers, when they murdered 4 ATF Special Agents who were there serving two valid warrants.

Leave aside for the moment whether ATF commanders did in fact determine the morning of the raid that Koresh had been tipped off they were coming and tragically led the agents into an ambush, as the Treasury report concluded. Assume for the sake of argument that the raid commanders should have reached that conclusion and canceled the raid. The fact is, the raid wasn't canceled. By what perverted sense of logic or legality does it somehow follow, as some have argued, that because the ATF made a mistake in not aborting the raid, the Davidians were therefore entitled to offer armed resistance and kill the agents as they arrived to serve legal, court-ordered warrants?

- Former ATF Director Higgins

 

[DMF]

By my calculations, the BD's owed less than 15k worth of taxes, plus a bit for associated licensing fees. Wonder how much the seige set us back, dollar wise?

Hmm, you think it was about the $200 transfer tax? Well let's look at what was really going on at the place Vernon Howell had decided to call Ranch Apocalypse:

Howell, had decided to assemble an arsenal of illegal weapons which included:

WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED

Machine Guns

The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:

22 M-16 Type Rifles

20 AK-47 Type Rifles

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades


The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html

But maybe Howell was just an innocent hobbyist who liked hand grenades, full-auto weapons, and silencers, and was so devoted to his RKBA that he thought he would ignore the law?

[SARCASM] Sure because your average innocent hobbyist has violent shootouts with people over who will run the local church [/SARCASM]:

Koresh had an affair with Lois, the geriatric prophetess and the couple travelled to Israel. She died in 1986, leaving Koresh and her son George to fight for control of the sect. Koresh stormed the compound, shot George in the chest and won. The new prophet was acquitted of attempted murder on a technicality.

http://www.thebiographychannel.co.uk/new_site/biography.php?id=776&showgroup=196

I also don't think innocent hobbyists have sex with children:

The following are excerpts from materials compiled by the FBI during the standoff providing examples of Koresh's historical (i.e., pre-February 28, 1993) sexual practices with young girls.

a) From ATF Affidavit in Support of Arrest of Koresh

From ATF Special Agent Aguilera's interview of former compound resident Jeannine Bunds, included in Agent Aguilera's affidavit in support of the Koresh arrest warrant, February 25, 1993:

"Ms. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at least fifteen (15) children with various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered seven (7) of these children.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Ms. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls' ages are from eleven (11) years old to adulthood."

b) From Interview by Texas Social Worker

Joyce Sparks, Children's Protective Services Investigations supervisor, Waco, interviewed a young girl, a former compound resident, on February 22, 1993:

"[She] entered the cult when she was about three or four years old. . . .

We asked her if she could think of any reason that any of the children at the compound would not be safe and as we got into this discussion, she brought up the topic of sexual abuse. She described herself as special and treated differently than other children. She talked about spending time alone with David and although this was 'scary' she felt 'privileged.'

She explained to us that on one occasion, when she was ten years old, her mother left her in a motel room with David Koresh. He was in bed and he told [her] to come over to him. She got into the bed. David had no pants on. He took off her panties and touched her and then got on top of her. . . .

We talked about how she was feeling when this happened and she responded . . . 'scared.' When asked what else she felt, she responded . . . 'privileged.' When asked what David would do if he knew she was telling us about this, [she] rolled her eyes and said . . . 'I wouldn't even want to think about it.'

We asked if she knew about any other girls who had experienced this and she said yes. She reported that she knew about Michelle Jones. When asked how she knew this, she explained that David had talked about having sex with Michelle when she was fourteen. He told in a Bible study once what it was like when he had sex with Michelle."

Michelle Jones died inside the compound on April 19, 1993.

c) From 1990 Affidavit of Former Davidian Ian Manning

"I was told that Vernon was sleeping with Michelle Jones, now currently fifteen years of age. . . .

I have seen Aisha Gyarfas come out of various rooms with Vernon where he slept that night. Vernon brags about having slept with her. She is now only fourteen years of age."

Aisha Gyarfas died inside the compound on April 19, 1993.

d) From 1990 Affidavit of Former Davidian Alison Manning

"Vernon claims to have permission from God to have more than one wife and although he is legally married to one woman (Rachel Olivia Jones) he has sexual relations . . . with other women -two of which were minors at the time of his first encounters with Vernon has also discussed his relations with Aisha Gyarfas (an Australian girl of fourteen years of age), stating that on their first sexual encounter her heart was beating so fast and hard he could hear it. Once taken as his new 'wife' these girls were involved in continuing relations with Vernon, intermittently being taken into his bedroom to spend the evening with him."

http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoseven.html

There is also this:

A FOURTEEN-YEAR OLD girl has helped to demolish the myth that the dead Branch Davidian cult leader David Koresh was a martyr destroyed by a ruthless FBI operation at Waco, Texas, in April 1995.

In evidence to Congress, which is investigating the episode, Kiri Jewel described how the self-proclaimed messiah used the sect as a cover for rape. . .

. . . Kiri said that she slept with Koresh and her mother in one bed. She recalled a childhood friend who, at the age of 14, "has a baby for David".

There was an uneasy silence in the congressional chamber as Kiri began to talk of her first sexual encounter with the cult leader at a motel in Waco when she was 10. . .

. . . Recounting more of her sexual initiation, she said that he used Biblical quotations to explain himself. He told her that, "King David from the Bible would sleep with young virgins to keep him warm."


She said: "I had known this would happen sometime, so I just laid there and stared at the ceiling. I was 10 when this happened."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco4.html

[SARCASM] Yeah, he was just a fine "fellow American" who didn't pay his transfer tax. [/SARCASM]

 

[Tharg]

Funny - how does the ATF get involved in a Child Abuse situation....

some would say fire-arms violations.... but how would they KNOW there were violations till(heh) after the fact.

This is basically to me another ruby ridge.... I'd understand if they went to server warrants and a cop got shot... hell - they should shoot the whole place up and burn it to the GROUND if a cop got shot for doing his/her duty.

but that ain't how it rolled....

From that list... i can only surmise that when it comes down to it - a whole lot of evidence that never should have been able to be collected will/was being used against someone who never would have used force.

its all subjective... since we don't know what would have happened if they didn't approach the place like someone from inside was gonna murder em... intead they approached it like someone WAS gonna murder em and then - murdered them.

go figure.

i bet amoung us we have people who have illegally modified *A* weapon to fire auto..... that never will use it publicly, that will never use it in a crime... thay are still "criminals" .... but not in the way that makes sense.

btw... the left... loves the BD's... a bunch of americans that believed in what they believed in that included firearms... that were NOT doing anything illegal w/ them(when i say this - i mean robbing a store/killing someone/etc - not "didn't pay the tax/do the paperwork for a fully auto weapon")... and the warrant that was issued had nothing to do w/ firearms... and yet... it became a firearm issue... go figure....

have i ever mentioned i hate people.... people suck... rofl

heheh

J/Tharg!

edit - many mis-spellings - sorry - late night - can't even be bothered to go fix em.... mouse stopped working too... so re-boot necessary - and when i do that i got to bed. Night all =) rofl.

 

[HEiST]

If I could give up a single piece of my skin- no, even just a little cell of it for Koresh Krazies and Ko to never have been overrun.. I wouldn't.

If I could give a large chunk of my flesh for the demon posessed pedophile to live out his final days in a worse manner and die in a method more tortuous than burning alive- I would.

End of story. Karma is a biiiiiii.. big ugly thing.

 

[Tharg]

holy rusted rocks batman...

man - i can say i never really LOOKED into this one.

Took the media for what it was worth - and hell - usually they are GREAT for the children!!!!

heh

if even ... 10% of what is printed above is correct.... they should have burned long before anything else happened. (they being the perpetrators of the rape/usage/slavery of the young girls involved)

however comma

i'll ad that its too easy to "label" and run w/ something than it is to actually foller the law.....

if they had a warrant... then they should have at least TRIED to serve it in a nomral way... this is a RIGHT for EVERYONE... not just the BD's.. i don't think they should IGNORE child abuse.. i'm saying that you can't ad it as a point after the fact....(on why the wanted to go in - in the first place)(IE - say someone told someone else you were HEAVILY armed... all thos big black evil rifles... and the ATF busted in your door instead of serving a warrant to a citizen as would normally been done)

if there were two warrants as stated by you... then they should have tried to fulfil those warrants.... everything i have seen said they did try to fill those warrants... by a military style take down... instead of knockin on the door. (to this day i don't recall anything that said they even TRIED to serve the warrant normally..... prove me wrong and i'll ... erm... hell - say yer right - and be educated in the process)

once again - child abuse... is SO sick to me(will never understand what an adult could posibly see in a child... hell - even a young woman... the maturity level just isn't there... )... i'd heard rumors... but nothing like the quotes in your email... if that was going on it should have stopped ... kids have it hard enough as it is these days... w/o some sick individuals ..... preying on them

the only point i'm really trying to make is ... i guess... law is law.. and the minute the law can step over itself... is when the rest of us get trampled.... this situation being what it is could VERY well lead SEVERAL people to believe the end justifies the means... and if that becomes common... then .... many of us will be the worse for it... the majority of us you ask me.

I wish i lived in a Black and White world... but i don't... and grey sucks as a color

J/Tharg!

 

[molonlabe]

For those of you who believe all the spin doctors I would advise that research the information available to you. Waco led to terrible divisions within our country and a general mistrust of LE. That in it self should deserve investigation. I have no love for Koresh or his cult but I remember watching this on TV and asking people at work "Does any of this bother you"? They replied. “Well he was abusing children†We have a concept of innocent until proven guilty in this country no matter what emotional response child abuse elicits in oneself. Make your own decision.

The information’s out there, some biased, some not biased, other so far out in left field you need a tin foil hat. Here’s a place to start. Happy reading.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/waco.html#Rick Ross and Waco

I think every American needs to read and understand what happened there.

 

[SIGarmed]

When was that report released? Last I heard BATFE was keeping all the Branch Davidian stuff in a sealed warehouse and would not let any outsider, even the Rangers, near it. The result was that there was no objective evidence that any illegal weapons were in the compound. I am not normally given to government conspiracy theories, but with the "Coverup Clinton" administration involved ("Would I lie to you?"), I wonder if this report can be trusted.

I do note the "piling on" by listing every tiny gun part and by listing guns and gun parts that were and are entirely legal to possess. It is just another version of the "tables full of guns" that Higgins wanted to show on TV to make Clinton happy and get more money and power for his bureau.

Jim

That depends on what the definition of "is" is.

 

[HankB]

BS, there were TWO warrants. . . . let's not pretend the ATF didn't have a reason to be there serving both those warrants. Let's also not pretend that the tragedy was not started by Vernon Wayne Howell and his followers, when they murdered 4 ATF Special Agents who were there serving two valid warrants.

Initial reports - and even later reports - stated, repeatedly, that those on the raid had forgotten to bring along the actual warrants; the warrants had been accidentally left behind at the office.

You can't serve what you don't have.

If you have information that the BATmen actually had the warrants in their possession and tried to hand them to the Davidians before attempting to force entry, please share this information.

 

[buzz_knox]

[SARCASM] Yeah, he was just a fine "fellow American" who didn't pay his transfer tax. [/SARCASM]

Koresh was a disgusting waste of air. No doubt. But child abuse was not the justification for the initial warrants, nor the perjured accusations of drug manufacturing that got the National Guard involved, nor the excuse for the final raid (the FBI stated that they had no new reports of child abuse wehn they decided to launch the final assault, notwithstanding Reno's statement at a press conference a couple hours earlier. Guess they forgot to get the cover story straight.) The official story for the final assault was that the siege was wearing down HRT and the other agencies, and it needed to end. At least, that's the first story they reported. Child abuse also doesn't justify tossing in flammable canisters of tear gas in an enclosed environment with children present, which FBI policy prohibited, and then lying about (they only came clean when the Texas Rangers made the discovery of these cannisters public knowledge.)

Once again, Koresh was an evil disgusting thing. But to use his sins to justify the gross incompetence, criminal negligence, or malfeasance of the federal agencies involved is completely unwarranted.

 

[twency]

Once again, Koresh was an evil disgusting thing. But to use his sins to justify the gross incompetence, criminal negligence, or malfeasance of the federal agencies involved is completely unwarranted.

Exactly.

For those of you who suggest there was no reason to bother the nice people in the kompound, be realistic. If you'd heard credible reports of what was allegedly occurring (child abuse, etc.), wouldn't you feel compelled to investigate?

For those of you who say that you have little or no problem with how the whole thing went down, because these were "bad people," how do you justify the doctoring of facts and evidence that it seems pretty clear happened after the fact? If everything was done above-board, and as it should have been, why was there such a coverup?

Ultimately, there's doesn't seem to be any argument that Koresh was scum. And he absolutely is complicit in the deaths of those in the compound, as he brought the wrath of the government down upon them. But that doesn't mean that the government handled the situation as it should have.

This doesn't seem much different, except in scale, from the bombing of MOVE in Philadelphia.

-twency
_______________
And that is all I have to say about that.

 

[UnknownSailor]

I don't think any of us here have any doubts about the need for an investigation into goings on at the compound, or even the legalities of the warrents. What I imagine many here have a problem with is the manner in which the BATF decided to conduct the raid, and the manner that they and the FBI conducted themselves during the seige and afterwards.

Lying about and tampering with evidence, locking it away so nobody can verify anything, stonewalling any attempts at investiating what happened, all give the impression that there is a cover-up underway. This is not conducive to generating trust in Federal Law Enforcement agents among the population at large.

That nobody was fired over the WACO incident only adds salt to the wound.

 

[JamisJockey]

If you'd heard credible reports of what was allegedly occurring (child abuse, etc.), wouldn't you feel compelled to investigate?

Yea, that was the duty of local officials. I could understand if they called the BATFE or FBI in to assist them, but instead when they headed there to serve the child abuse warrant (Sherrif Dept, IIRC), the BATFE was already there, and assumed jurisdiction, which they did not have.

 

[standingbear]

I agree 100% with buzz knoxs' observations and opinion.

I didnt believe what what "placed" on the news then and I'm just not buying into it now either.childrens lives were at risk..they went ahead anyways and the place burnt to the ground.sorry,I dont find it excusable even if a cobra gunship were found smoldering in the rubble.

what difference does it make now anyways?

 

[seeker_two]

That "list" is about as credible as the Clinton Library's account of Billy's impeachment...

I don't know what's worse: the fact that Clinton, Reno, and FBI/ATF got away with the coverup...

...or that Bush refuses to reopen the investigation into it. He's even thinking of naming John "if-the-gov't-said-they-didn't-do-anything-wrong-then-they're-innocent-as-lambs" Danforth for one of the vacant Cabinet positions... :banghead:

And the beat goes on...

 

[Atticus]

"childrens lives were at risk"

UH...Yeah...they were from the day their parents met Koresh. They filled the house with cans of gasoline, and such, so they (and their kids) could go up in flames...and they did.
How many weeks or months does a person need to realize that a ranch involved in a shootout with the government isn't a healthy environment for growing youngters.