What if the U.S. had adopted the .280 FAL?

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Sergei Mosin

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Suppose for a moment that the U.S. had adopted the FAL chambered in .280 British instead of the M14 in 7.62x51 back in the 1950s. What effects would this have had on the development of American small arms?
 
I think we would've ultimately ended up with something like a FAL carbine as our service rifle.

I don't know exactly what the 280 FAL was like, but if it was still a 10 pound rifle with a full-length barrel, it would have run into the same problems as the M14 in Vietnam. IIRC, the 280 British is similar to the 6.8 SPC, and that functions just fine in civilian 16" carbines. A plastic- stocked, short-barreled 280 FAL would probably work out great for the kind of jungle and urban warfare we've fought for the last 50 years. I am not familiar with the ballistics of the 280, but if it had some legs it may have even been able to replace the 308 as a machine gun cartridge.
 
What if the U.S. had adopted the .280 FAL?

I would probably have a few FALs in .280 and just as happy with them as I am with the ones I have in 7.62mm.

And instead of the tired old argument about how the M-16 is so inferior to the M-14, we would have discussions about how the FAL is so inferior to the M1 Garand.:neener:




.
 
What if the U.S. had gone with the .276 Pedersen cartridge instead of the 30.06 that McAuther insisted on at the last minute before S.A. began mass production of the M1?

Different world, ... or same essential outcomes where the M1 was used?

:cool:
 
None.

The FAL and M-14 were both failed experiments. Not that they were bad guns, they weren't, but neither offered the military the rifle they really needed. I think we still end up exactly where we are today.
 
None.

The FAL and M-14 were both failed experiments. Not that they were bad guns, they weren't, but neither offered the military the rifle they really needed. I think we still end up exactly where we are today.
I agree with the assessment, but for different reasons. (Note he qualified it with "in .280 British", which is closer to what we have now than 7.62 NATO.)

The Lightweight Rifle Program was a poorly run program, over-budget, behind-schedule by nearly a decade and the quality of the first productions rifles was not up to snuff. That is why M14 production was curtailed.

There is no evidence that production of the T48 in a different caliber, would have been smoother.

The reason the M16 was type classified and purchased was to fill the 3 million rifle short-fall the early ending of M14 production left.
 
Suppose for a moment that the U.S. had adopted the FAL chambered in .280 British instead of the M14 in 7.62x51 back in the 1950s.

Suppose for a moment that you could convince the Knuckle Draggers to use a cartridge ballistic ally different from the 30-06. Well, you could not and neither could the British, French, or anyone. The Infantry wanted what they were familiar with and they were not going to change. They would not accept the 276 Pedersen after WW1 and they would not accept anything post WW2 that was not of the caliber or the performance of the 30-06. The 7.62 mm was a short 30-06, all things considered.

Maybe in an alternate Universe the User was forward looking enough to accept a cartridge of less weight, less caliber, less range than a 30-06, but it did not happen in this Universe.
 
agtman posted:
What if the U.S. had gone with the .276 Pedersen cartridge instead of the 30.06 that MacArthur insisted on at the last minute before S.A. began mass production of the M1
?

Likely would have fought WW II with serious shortages of ammunition. The main reason Gen. MacArthur insisted on adopting the .30 caliber was that we had a stockpile of that ammunition from WW I production, and the M1917A1 and M1919A4 machine guns were .30 caliber, as well as the Browning Automatic Rifle M1918A1.

Incidentally, the .30 M1906 cartridge was already obsolete, the .30 M1 ammunition having replaced that round. Not sure when the .30-06 was phased out, but well before the outbreak of WW II, around 1925 or 1926 or so.

Bob Wright
 
I think that would have been a far better combination than the M14/7.62x51mm NATO, and really I think we would probably still be using that .280 cartridge if not the rifle.
 
Well I'm glad it didn't happen - we wouldn't have the M14 and M16, and their semiauto variants! Things turned out pretty well I'd say.
 
If we had adopted the .276 (unlikely during a Depression, with tens of billions of rounds of M2 and M1 ball on hand), or if we had picked the .280 (also unlikely for Not Invented Here, and not 3/10 inch bore), I'm guessing that, when we did go to an intermediate cartridge, it would have been a 6mm instead of the 5.56mm.

Which would have left .308 as just another odd hunting caliber, the .270 would be as common as the .222 is today. All of which is mere conjecture, if based on years of observing such things.
 
Incidentally, the .30 M1906 cartridge was already obsolete, the .30 M1 ammunition having replaced that round. Not sure when the .30-06 was phased out, but well before the outbreak of WW II, around 1925 or 1926 or so.

Huh?
The M1 replaced the 06 ca 1925 because WWI doctrine emphasized long range machine gun fire and the 173 gr boattail bullet gave almost 50% more range. But within a few years, they were ordering fresh 150 gr flatbase so as to not shoot out the end of Army ranges and not kick the recruits around so hard. That load was type standardized as M2 and was GI for WWII. I don't think the M1 ever went into combat.

I wonder if there ever was a moderately powered true rifle round that would have satisfied infantry needs and still be with us today, economics and tradition aside.
Would a .276 Pedersen or .280 British EM still be GI or would the push down to varmint calibers still have taken control? I doubt there are many Russian or Chicom enthusiasts debating the subject, but their Army brass still went smallbore in our wake.

Nowadays, there are a lot of supporters of 6.5mm rifles for more power than .223 and less weight and recoil than .308. (But recall the Japanese and Italians trying to get away from that small a caliber early in WWII.)
Include the whole 6 to 7mm gang and it is clear where we armchair ballisticians thing the world ought to be going. Which reprises a lot of earlier thought. Look at the rows and rows of different cartridges that were considered by one army or another after WWII.
http://quarryhs.co.uk/Assault.htm
 
What if toady frogs had wings????

Suppose the US had adopted the FN FAL in its original caliber? 7,9 mm Infantrie Kurz Patrone?

Or a .30 cal version of the 7.92 Kurz like one of Frank C. Barnes play toys? What? Never herd of the .308x1.5 (.308 Short) or 7.62x41 Sporting? Want to bet someone at Springfield or Aberdeen did not play with the idea 15 years before Barnes in the early 1960's?

Give up maybe 200-300 FPS but keep Your 150 grain bullet in a shorter and more lightly built FN-FAL than actually adopted by many countries in 7.62 NATO.

I seem to recall that when Springfield Armory (the civilian out fit) first offering FN-FALs that they offered in ads at least .243 chambered ones. Now I never saw an M-1A in .243 or .358 Winchester which they also advertised, but they may have sold a few.

Much as some of the threads floating about on THR at the moment, some thought a "6mm based on the .308 case" would be the "Ultimate Infantry Cartridge" thee even having been an article proclaiming such in INFANTRY magazine at one point in the 1980's I believe. Made me wonder if the author had even heard of the .243 or 6mm Remington and there he was supposed to be an x-spurt.

I believe strongly though in all honesty, that if the US had adopted in the mid 1950s a British cartridge in a Belgian gun that today, "pig's wings" would be more popular than "Buffalo Wings."

-kBob
 
What if toady frogs had wings????
Then they wouldn't bump their butts on the ground when they hop! At least that's how it goes in my state :D

Were 280 adopted, the primary effect would be the HK G3 series would be a lot more enjoyable to shoot, and mostly likely have a much better service life. It was originally designed around that less powerful cartridge after all, and the bump the 308 really does overdrive its operation somewhat (hence the insane ejection ferocity and often irritating recoil)

American gas-operated guns can more easily adapt, and the round isn't hugely different from 308 in terms of effect or full-auto controllability, so our history would probably be about the same, excepting perhaps a slightly higher mag capacity for the M14 (knowing the Army, they'd just chop the mags down to 20rnds regardless, though).

However, since organizations are over reactionary, we would probably adopt an even weaker intermediate cartridge when the 280 proved too hot to handle, so Vietnam may have been fought with M3 Carbines in 22 Johnson Spitfire & the Iraqi wars with P90's :p. The lessons learned in Afghanistan would then slingshot us back up to something like 6.8spc or Grendel, which is kind of where we ended up chasing 308 and 5.56 anyway.

I believe strongly though in all honesty, that if the US had adopted in the mid 1950s a British cartridge in a Belgian gun that today, "pig's wings" would be more popular than "Buffalo Wings."
Mostly this, although it was American before it was British, in the 276 Pedersen, but MacArthur saw fit to put the kibosh on that before fading away (oh wait, he never faded away but burned out brightly while kicking & screaming, didn't he? :p)

Much as some of the threads floating about on THR at the moment, some thought a "6mm based on the .308 case" would be the "Ultimate Infantry Cartridge" thee even having been an article proclaiming such in INFANTRY magazine at one point in the 1980's I believe. Made me wonder if the author had even heard of the .243 or 6mm Remington and there he was supposed to be an x-spurt.
You do have to admit that a near-AR15-length action using AR10 bolt/extension and short 308 cases necked down a fairly small bore would put considerable firepower into a rifle approximately the same size/weight of an M4. I think the real question --like so many other areas of technology these days-- is whether the human is ultimately the limiting factor for a lightweight platform chambered in hot-rod shoulder-kickers, when he's expected to direct aimed rapid fire in quantity as part of core tactics.

TCB
 
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I wonder if there ever was a moderately powered true rifle round that would have satisfied infantry needs and still be with us today, economics and tradition aside.
Seeing as it'd be wood & steel, and not very modular given the requirements of the day, I'd doubt it. Closest thing to 'modular' then was the MG15, and the only guns of similar construction to WWII methods still kicking are probably the M1A and MP5 (still roughly-roughly similar to the MP44)

Would a .276 Pedersen or .280 British EM still be GI or would the push down to varmint calibers still have taken control? I doubt there are many Russian or Chicom enthusiasts debating the subject, but their Army brass still went smallbore in our wake.
Interesting question, since the difference doesn't seem enough to go UP to 276/280 calibers today. Were we sitting on fifty-years' infrastructure of 280 or whatever, I think there would be at least equal resistance to going 5.56. The Chinese and Russians went even smaller than we did (the Chinese are like 17cal IIRC for several cartridges), but the Russians also more thoroughly developed larger bore offerings like 9x39 and 9x21 for short barrel or suppressor use. The Americans by comparison have been resolute in opposition to any efforts to optimize the bore of our now much-shorter M4s, which is ironic given the slavish dedication to optimization in the M16 (i.e. the variables have changed, but we've been pretending the answer remains the same)

Nowadays, there are a lot of supporters of 6.5mm rifles for more power than .223 and less weight and recoil than .308. (But recall the Japanese and Italians trying to get away from that small a caliber early in WWII.)
I will only say that a long 22 caliber simple FMJ bullet like those nations were fielding would probably perform even more poorly. The tumbling, fragmenting, VLD, and penetrator effects of modern 5.56 and other options have greatly expanded their performance, and we know with hunting & varmint bullets that the same benefits are see in larger calibers as well.

Include the whole 6 to 7mm gang and it is clear where we armchair ballisticians thing the world ought to be going. Which reprises a lot of earlier thought.
It really is funny how clear the math has been all along. A lot of people refuse to believe this, and are astonished at how close to optimal the very first generation of smokeless spitzer bullet cartridges were. I think they simply were able to approach the topic unbiased, and came to the conclusions we're nearing once again. 7mm Mauser was very close to what we expect from even a modern rifle cartridge considering it was *first*, and 7.5x55 Swiss an even closer refinement (namely with regards to autoloading function)

The 'new' variable we have today is the advent of the "carbine" or short rifle, which had pretty much fallen from favor when lever actions were abandoned for the new shoot-over-the-horizon smokeless wonder bolt rifles and machineguns at the turn of the century. Just as with the old mounted cavalry, we've returned once more to high-mobility tactics, and found that small/light/short is the order of the day. Black powder carbines tended to shoot wide-for-power cartridges, since a fat short bore approaches the volume of a long skinny bore, and bore volume is directly related to how much power can be derived from a cartridge. Since our M4 barrel is more than 1/4 shorter than originally intended, it makes a lot sense to "bore" the motor since we "de-stroked" it, so long as doing so doesn't impact function or use (recoil from longer/heavier bullets needed to maintain trajectory)

450px-Ammunition_7x57.jpg
7mm, 7mm, 7.5x55, 308, 5.56
Look at this and tell me that we could possibly have significantly more design insight into the problem than they did in 1892 :D

TCB
 
I wonder if there ever was a moderately powered true rifle round that would have satisfied infantry needs and still be with us today, economics and tradition aside.

Seeing as it'd be wood & steel, and not very modular given the requirements of the day, I'd doubt it.

Rifle ROUND. It would by now be chambered in something akin to an AR or HK.


From reading some of the stuff on the Williams site, it seems the greatest drawback to ballistic improvement is adherence to the AR action length, with a view to saving money by rebarreling existing rifles and not having to change anything but the barrel specs on new ones.
Some of the new new designs shake out at .30 Remington/6.8 head diameter and an OAL of 2.8" which would require a new rifle to get the ballistics wanted.

He had an update that the LSAT people have been planning a 6.5mm plastic cased telescoped round instead of the 5.56 and 7.62 equivalents they had been working with on the grounds that they were direct comparison to current issue.
 
Much as some of the threads floating about on THR at the moment, some thought a "6mm based on the .308 case" would be the "Ultimate Infantry Cartridge" thee even having been an article proclaiming such in INFANTRY magazine at one point in the 1980's I believe. Made me wonder if the author had even heard of the .243 or 6mm Remington and there he was supposed to be an x-spurt. ]
They were probably referring to the 6mm SAW cartridge. It was big enough to be used in the GPMG yet small enough to be acceptable in an individual automatic wqeapon.

It was supposed to ultimately replace both 7.62 and 5.56.
 
But the point was asked earlier, and never answered – why did the Japanese and the Italians abandon their 6.5mm rounds in favor of something larger and more powerful, when ultimately most armies of the world have since gone the other way some 70 years later? Did they not have a maneuver-based doctrine? Did they simply have the military equivalent of penile envy?
 
I believe it was because those nations were still pretending they could use the same cartridge in both infantry and mounted machine guns. Lot of rather weak Italian and Japanese LMGs that simply were not very authoritative from an armored vehicle or aircraft. Also, if you're stuck with a bolt action and on the losing side of a war (i.e. scarce resupply) you don't get either the rate of controlled fire or volume fire benefits of a more intermediate cartridge. The bullets of the era also did an excellent job of damaging the target as little as possible for a high-velocity rifle round (even the mighty 8mm was often surprisingly ineffective from the even mightier MG42, as a family friend who lived to a ripe old age could attest)

That said, Oswald was sure able to make use of the Carcano's reduced recoil impulse for rapid fire, as I imagine were plenty of Italian/etc. servicemen. As 'weak' as they were, we still ultimately felt the need to downgrade further for self-loading rifles.

TCB
 
.276 Pedersen.

10-rd clips, M1 Garand format - later shortened to 18" Tanker configuration. Recoil about like the 7mm-08, but adding a muzzle brake/FH (like the new Schuster M1 MB) would reduce it to the .223 level, ... but loud.

Would've still won WW2, made the Commies cave in Korea, and despite the M16 program, the 10-rd .276 Pedersen Garand probably would've been do-able through the TET offensive and Kasan.

Yeah, my two- cents. :cool:
 
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I believe it was because those nations were still pretending they could use the same cartridge in both infantry and mounted machine guns.
An excellent point - thanks! :)
 
I have never gotten an answer. I conclude that the Italians were shooting at Ethiopians and the Japanese were shooting at Chinese when they increased their infantry rifle calibres. The more proficient opponents and more advanced arty support of WWII changed the emphasis to closer range, higher volume firefights.
 
I believe it was because those nations were still pretending they could use the same cartridge in both infantry and mounted machine guns. Lot of rather weak Italian and Japanese LMGs that simply were not very authoritative from an armored vehicle or aircraft. Also, if you're stuck with a bolt action and on the losing side of a war (i.e. scarce resupply) you don't get either the rate of controlled fire or volume fire benefits of a more intermediate cartridge. The bullets of the era also did an excellent job of damaging the target as little as possible for a high-velocity rifle round (even the mighty 8mm was often surprisingly ineffective from the even mightier MG42, as a family friend who lived to a ripe old age could attest)

That said, Oswald was sure able to make use of the Carcano's reduced recoil impulse for rapid fire, as I imagine were plenty of Italian/etc. servicemen. As 'weak' as they were, we still ultimately felt the need to downgrade further for self-loading rifles.

TCB
From what I have read that is the reason the Italians and the Japanese went from 6.5 to 7.35 and 7.7, to make a more effective long range cartridges base on combat experiences in wide-open largely vegetation-free regions, the Italians the desert, the Japanese in Manchuria. But, for various reasons the Japanese wound up making it in rimless and semi-rimmed versions.
 
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