What if you stopped a massacre in a gunfree zone with a gun?

[jeepmor]

In light of yesterdays events, I am wondering what the legal ramifications are of the following. This is hypothetical of course, but as time goes on, I see that more and more law abiding CCW permit holders may decide to ignore a law or two for the sake of safety.

Okay, so you are CCWng and you happen to space it, ignore the rules, or what have you and you have your CCW on your person at one of the "off limits" locales. This could be a courthouse, post office, or as in todays case, a college campus. Some whack job decides to go on a killing spree and you, knowing you're violating some serious laws (felony level) and you have an opportunity to intervene and stop the killing.

I'm not real interested in whether or not any of you would decide to act, that's not my ultimate question. Circumstances will dictate what and how you respond, if at all. I don't want to go into the minutiae of "why" you respond in kind to gunfire with gunfire. Let's say you did act accordingly and stop the event from drawing itself out like today at Virginia Tech.

My question is rather, how would the law handle this situation. Sure, you'd be a hero of a citizen, but also a felon. How do you think the legal system would handle such a situation. Lets say that you are not a LEO of any form, so we don't degrade to LEOs can carry everywhere debate. You are simply a person who did not leave his CCW at home, kept it undercover and just happened to have it at the wrong place (legal no gun zone) at the wrong time (massacre is going down).

Sure, the people you save would be grateful, but what about all the liberals and sheeple who would ostracize you for having a gun in an off limits zone in the first place. Would the media and legal system love or hate you. I'm guessing that both the media and justice system would fry you just like they would the whack job since you were technically a felon for not abiding by an unconstitutional law.

What say you? I'd appreciate some real lawyers to chime in and comment and state that they are lawyers just for clarity. If you cannot due that for ethical reasons or otherwise, please state that and we'll all understand. I know some of you are lawyers and appreciate any comments you can make being you guys and gals know more of how the legal system operates.

I'm guessing this would be a no-win situation and you'd have to run like an unarmed citizen or face a life behind bars for saving others. Either way, it just doesn't seem like you could win here, your only satisfaction would be between you and the citizens you possibly save.

 

[rangermonroe]

You would have my applause.

 

[sansone]

God I hope you would be hailed a hero. saving lives protects good samaritan doctors from being sued in an "out-of-office" emergency

 

[Zero_DgZ]

There is no choice for me. I'm fighting until I run out of bullets, and after that I'm fighting until I'm dead or the fighting stops.

That's how I've always done it, that's how I always will.

 

[PMATULEW]

Two words: Jury nullification.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Zero has it.

Who cares what happens, you're alive to argue about it and potentially saved the lives of any number of people.

What would happen in today's mass media market is that hopefully you'd get on several TV news shows to tell your pro-2A story and then sign a book deal.

 

[ec-10]

As for this happening at Virginia Tech you would have probably been expelled as a student. As a visitor they would have probably had you arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. I have heard of people who carried to there jobs against company policy. Once they get found out they get fired.

 

[1BLINDREF]

Sure, the people you save would be grateful, but what about all the liberals and sheeple who would ostracize you for having a gun in an off limits zone in the first place.

I personally don't care what the media or liberals would say or do to me if I were in this scenario.
My sole thought would be Thank God I'm still alive and was able to protect myself. I'd rather deal with any legal repercussions, then be dead.

 

[enfield]

You'd be alive.

 

[Geno]

Follow the Law; Change the Law!!!

It has become painfully obvious to me that playing "turtle" and hoping that all concerned will obey the laws is not working. We have too many people who see the Achilles Heal and attack it. We need to seek legislative changes that acknowledge the legitimate right to defend one's self in an educational setting, and which acknowledge the high ethics of those approved to carry concealed. There will factually be more of these shootings in the future. Turtle does not work. It is time to seek legislative changes to permit those of us with CCWs to carry, 24/7 in all locations. Note, until such legislative changes are made...follow the law!!! If you violate the law and are caught, you simply show CCW holders to be criminals who had not yet been caught. If you want to carry 24/7, seek change...seek change publicly. Go on a paper-filing campaign and send letters to all the legislators, certified even, but do NOT violate the laws. Following the laws is The High Road way, and it is the American way!

 

[NavyLCDR]

Probably -

There would be some state funded prosecuting attorney who would argue that you shot the perp without knowledge of what his/her intentions were. How did you KNOW for sure that he was going to shoot however many people?

Just because one person violates the law is it OK for everyone to violate the law? IE: I was only going 20mph over the speed limit because everyone else was, therefore, I should not get a ticket?

And then the criminal case would be followed-up by a civil lawsuit filed by the perp's family. "This gun wielding vigilante shot our poor son/brother/father who has obvious mental deficiencies, therefore the vigilante should pay us XXX million dollars." Of course the family's lawyers will take the case pro bono unless an award is granted in which case they will receive an 80% commission. :banghead:

My personal opinion is that if I was on the jury, I would give you a standing ovation applause, a citation from the governor or president or at least the NRA, and refund you the cost of the ammo you expended.

And I agree 100% with Doc2005... Very good point!

 

[CNYCacher]

Based on when this has happened in the past, it is likely that there would be no legal ramifications and also the media would not mention you at all, or if they did mention you, they wouldn't mention your gun.

"Police found the gunman after he stopped shooting and arrested him without further incident."
or at best
"A bystander subdued the gunman until police arrived."

 

[03Shadowbob]

You may be expelled from school but who cares? You would be alive and had saved many other lives possibly. AFAIK, It is not against the law to carry on college campuses it VA.
You would be seen as a hero more than likely and be on every news program to tell your story. It'd be a good thing for pro 2A groups.

 

[Geno]

The Michigan Solution

Michigan has a solution already on the books! And while we have a solution, it is not infallible, for one, it is largely susceptible to local LEOs who may be closet antis.

Michigan has two levels of “CCWs”:

Level 1 -- Restrictions known as “Pistol Free Zones”

Level 2 -- Exempt from “Pistol Free Zones”

If you want to carry at school, college or univerity, etc, seek option #2, Exempt from pistol free zone.

 

[Travis Lee]

Well, if you are willing to obey an immoral, unjust, racist, unconstitutional, and stupid law, and DIE for it, I hope you enjoy your moment of moral superiority as you allow other people and then yourself to be lined up and executed.

You will deserve that death.

Perhaps you will be judged by a harsher judge than you'd face on Earth.

--Travis--

 

[jeepmor]

Following the laws is The High Road way, and it is the American way!

I agree, I do. But we both know, if we were students in the wrong class yesterday, we'd be dead law abiders. This is the point I'm wrangling with. I'd be alive, now a felon, but alive to argue my point. I'd take that chance, but then again, I, as a law abiding citizen, would be dead or injured wouldn't I?

I'm all for driving political change on the High Road as it should be, but the juxtaposition of this topic is exactly what I'm getting at. I anticipate many of us will be contacting our congress critters in regards to this incident. We need to push the momentum for defense in our favor and remove these unconstitutional laws from the books. The High Road in this instance is a dead end in the literal sense.

Thanks for all the input folks, keep em coming. This type of thing just makes me think about the gun free zones being killing grounds, and of course, that bothers me.

 

[EricTheBarbarian]

well i wouldnt trust the court to be on my side. I could see the police trying to kill me for stopping him and trying to say i was the shooter. how would they know who the shooter was? maybe thats just me being paranoid but definetly a bad situation to be in.

 

[buzz_knox]

Following the laws is The High Road way, and it is the American way!

Actually, committing one wrong (violating a ban prohibiting CCW) to prevent a greater harm (such as what occurred) is codified in the American legal system as the doctrine of necessity. Your argument doesn't take this into account at all.

Your argument does provide, however, that being a victim and allowing such massacres to occur is to be preferred to the alternative of violating the law and preventing such massacres. As such, this argument is in no way High Road and deserves to be rejected out of hand.

 

[heysox]

I recall first hand a real life situation in anti-gun Baltimore, Md years ago. An elderly black gent was being badly beaten during the course of a street robbery by two young thugs. He was knocked to the ground where they put the boots to him. He produced a .32 pistol and lit them both up (yay). No permit (it was Maryland after all) and it was an unlicensed handgun. Never made it to a grand jury. The then State's Attorney chose to drop the matter. Of course that was when we had a SA with a pair. I tend to think that even in liberal havens, using an illegally carried firearm to save a life would get a pass from LE. If you screw up though, bend over quickly and remain that way.

 

[buzz_knox]

I'd be alive, now a felon, but alive to argue my point.

It's highly unlikely you'd be charged in a case like this. Even if you were, the doctrine of necessity could very easily see you walk out of the courtroom a free man.

The law requires you to recognize and obey it, but not when doing so means you die.

 

[zahc]

In all honesty, the much more likely scenario is carrying, getting made whether through careless carry, metal detector/campus security search, and then becoming a felon, while trying to convince everyone that you aren't a paranoid gun nut and where just being prudent. Good luck with that one.

 

[Sam Adams]

In all honesty, the much more likely scenario is carrying, getting made whether through careless carry, metal detector/campus security search, and then becoming a felon, while trying to convince everyone that you aren't a paranoid gun nut and where just being prudent. Good luck with that one.

That's what concerns me, and that is why we have to press to get 24/7 unrestricted carry for those who are licensed to carry. After all, we've all been through exhaustive background checks, training and possibly a qualification test (depending on state), and most of us practice at least a few times a year. We're not the type to do these massacres - on the contrary, we're far more law-abiding and level-headed than most people, and we also probably have better shooting skills than most police officers - i.e. we're the kind of people that everyone else should want to have armed everywhere at all times, kind of like an auxiliary (and free) police force.

 

[Lonestar]

Sometime you got to do what is right and damn the consequences.

 

[Innova]

Following the laws is The High Road way, and it is the American way!

I surely hope not! Think of all the laws that have been overturned by the actions of those who disagreed. Make that statement to those who ran the underground railroad, those who fought for our independence, ect... The spirit of resistance is the American way, at least it was at one time.

Someone put this much better than I ever could:

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure." - Thomas Jefferson

 

[Mr White]

I have a saying: "Alive and in a world of s*** still beats the hell out of dead."