What is your last straw?

[LiquidTension]

JBT: "LT, we've come for your guns."
LT: "Guns? What guns?"
JBT: "Sir, we know you have guns. Lots of guns."
LT: "Oh those. I sold them and gave the money to SCLEOA."

 

[armedandsafe]

When I had children at home and under my protection, I discussed this with FirstInLine. The conclusion was that the care and well-being of the kids was the most important thing we had to take care of.

Now that the kids are gone and established in their own lives, we don't have those concerns and can act differently. In that light, see my sig line for our opinion about the times.

Oleg, the politicians in my area consider me a pest. The shooters and hunters in my area consider me a friend and assistant (and, sometimes, a pest.) The LE in my immediate area consider me a backup (and, sometimes, a pest.)

Pops

 

[Soybomb]

Individuals sacrifice themselves over what they perceive as the last straw all the time. Their downfall is celebrated and their message ignored. No definate plans to be famous here.



Notice they say "MY cold dead hands". That's because rights are personal. A free person defines their own rights. They are not on loan. It's socialists who want us to believe rights are collectively owned. Thus I suppose collectively defended? Well good luck helping Chicago defend their rights. Or should I say good luck doing it for them?

I refuse to go Rambo on my local cops over what happens outside our area. They have proven themselves honorable to me. I will continue to appreciate them and judge them based on their actions, not the actions of others.

Oh I'm not suggesting that people in reno riot over what happens in chicago but you're telling me that there are no "cold dead hands" people that lived in chicago then? I don't think they were absent, I think its just nothing more than warm and fuzzy words to most people that claim it.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I love this topic

This is a very important question. But one I have put an answer out on b/f. The truth is most people aren't invested enough in this to do something, and everyone has a different breaking point.

I probably would bury my guns and wait a couple of years (even then that would be for a universal ban b/c there are many states in the union that will never ban. Some states would have individual local officials not enforcing anything. Then, if things got nasty, who knows?

But my belief is that guns are part of a much bigger picture. Nowadays in Engalnd, things have progressed so far in surveillance and gov police power, no one has any power b/f a gov gone crazy. But b/c it is a democracy it is really a crazy people.

If the crazies of this country from the left coast and northeast gain the power in numbers and cause a conflict, they will have to destroy the entire bor to catch us. They will radicalize people that were not radical before, and kill people who had no investment in this in the beginning. then, in that end, I would either aid rebel forces or be one myself.

But I'm talkin' civil war!

And that is very far away. In the meantime, I can move to pro-rkba states, and if one looks at votes and demographics, we're winnin' this one. All we have to do is teach the kids our way of life, and we will actually begin to take back area lost.

 

[James T Thomas]

my fear

Who was the pastor in NAZI Germany who said "When they came for the full autos, I had none, and so...and when they came for the Military guns, I had'nt any either so... and when they came for my Sporting firearms...

That's the likely history before it ever even happens.

 

[JHill]

With ALL the bickering and arguing amongst civil (liberties) minded people, I wonder when exactly we will band together and resist tyranny.

You can find any thread here or arfcom, GT, etc and see all the disagreement even among the 'self-professed', molon labe-spewing gun owners. We live during an anti-gun administration, wire-tapping, home-taking, localized gun confiscating, borders like a seeve, etc--and WE ALL CANNOT AGREE ON ANYTHING...:banghead:

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

With ALL the bickering and arguing amongst civil (liberties) minded people, I wonder when exactly we will band together and resist tyranny.

You can find any thread here or arfcom, GT, etc and see all the disagreement even among the 'self-professed', molon labe-spewing gun owners. We live during an anti-gun administration, wire-tapping, home-taking, localized gun confiscating, borders like a seeve, etc--and WE ALL CANNOT AGREE ON ANYTHING...:banghead:

Dam* straight! (To wax colloqial). And for good reason.

As I've written before, there are many in this "gun culture" who somehow, someway, believe and will continue to believe until they spend some time and money defending themselves against Leviathon, that the U.S. Government as presently constituted, its police and enforcement arms, and their elected representatives, are THEIR FRIENDS. This is false belief only maintained by those who have some odd religiosity and confusion regarding the history and principles of this nation (that is the kind of government that existed at the time of the Founders and prior to the Civil War) and the pathetic relationship that has developed between the Government and the People.

There is no real unity for reasons stated before, especially the most un-American attitudes of those who love the State, the police, and love the military, not matter what its unconstitutional objective. When people begin to realize (probably too late) that the institutions, though theoretically or historically moral and just, have become corrupted, possibley beyond redemption, then, MAYBE, we can have a perhaps a Revolution of Accountability In Government, holding those miscreants responsible (which make up about 98% of government office holders and employees), hold swift trials, and then start over again...according to the original highest law of the land, the Constitution of the United States, including, especially, categoric enforcement of the Bill of Rights. Until such a time, most people will go along with thier lives, as if in a trance, believing like the elephant tied to the stake when young and become accustomed to its condition, that they are a "free" people who have the ability to change their government...a myth propogated by government schools, useful idiots, and effective propoganda.

Until such time as that, you will find many, such as myself, at hard opposition to those that excuse, placate, and rationalize the abominations of the government as presently constructed.

We'll see how the future pans out.

That sound you hear in the distance is that economic and political freight train coming in the distance. It may be a little ways off, but it's coming all the same...

 

[Ryder]

RE cold dead hands

I do not think you will see the media mention the second ammendment as a motivating factor. I also think people have already died over this issue. Ever hear of a barricaded gunman? That happens on a fairly regular basis even around here.

 

[zookrider]

For those of you who state that you will never vote dem or rep again, it sounds a lot like cutting off your nose to spite your face. While I'll agree that national level politics are quite the mess, it is still quite possible to find those running for office in local elections who are worthy of your vote. I closely follow the local politics in my area and vote for the most liberty loving candidate to be found with an actual chance to win. Sometimes that's a libertarian, sometimes a republican, or an independent, and in theaory I suppose it could be a demo, though I've yet to see it. But I cast my vote and try to do my part. That doesn't mean that I don't keep my powder dry.

 

[Brother in Arms]

Zook
not to get to far off topic, but I am an independant, Im my state independants seldom run for office, nor do Libertarians, most of the republicans are Democrats at heart. So to me the bi-partisan issues innt one, they are both in the same camp, just different branches of it. Now if only an anti-federalist would run! I agree voting locally makes alot more sense than nationally at this point.

I agree withj JHill in the sense that there is no united front against those who seek to take away our rights, it would be nice to see people say here is the line and if they cross it there will be war. That is why many hate the un small arms proliferation "treaty" because its easier to attack and fight an outside foreign force for most people. I agree that if that is ratified its war for me.

I am more worried about our own illustrious government disarming us. That is why I decided, if they pass a State of Maine assault weapons, then its war for me.

I don't know how others feel, but if you don't have a point where enough is enough then you will constantly be pushed back further and further saying "well that law sucks but its not as bad as confiscation"

Brother in Arms

 

[TallPine]

Well, suppose one reaches the "last straw" ... just what is one going to do? Most of the existing gun laws don't really have a clear effect on most of us.

The 1934 NFA was enacted before most of us were born, and I was about 14 when GCA 1968 came about. Maybe I should go out and buy a full-auto on the black market just for a protest, or maybe I could demand that Cabela's ship a cartridge firearm directly to me instead of to an FFL ....

Or maybe I could put a pistol grip on an imported semi-auto without adding the requisite number of US made parts ... ? That would show those guys in Washingdone!

 

[ka50]

You can own rifles and hanguns in dc as far as I'm aware. You just can't carry them.

 

[Rockrivr1]

"I agree that if that is ratified its war for me."

And there lies the root of the problem. It's war for you. Singular. By yourself, outgunned and easily labeled a crazy gun nut that had to be put down.

Only as a unified front will it make a difference. I'm reading a lot of talk about how in the days past our ancestors would not put up with it. Yep, true. But what did they do. They banned together in a group and went out and made history. They did it with the business end of their guns.

In today's world how do we ban together. Mostly we support our local GOAL or the NRA. Who exactly is that? They are mainly lobbiest and lawyers. We sit here in the world of the internet and write on these boards. How many members are here on this board. I think less then 20,000. You add in a few other boards like GT and AR15 you may make it to 30-40,000. That's 40,000 like minded individuals with a cause across 50 states and abroad. To make a statement that people would have to pay attention to, a good portion would need to meet up in Washington or at the capital of say California or Massachusetts, armed, and demand reform. Just like in days past.

Who will start such a campaign? We'd need the support of gun owners who are not on these internet boards. So how do we reach them? Until we make that type of statement we are basically a minority. Granted a minority that has made some headway recently, but that will only last as long as the current numbers in the legislature are in our favor. As soon as they are not, a new assault weapons ban, or worse, will be proposed and probably passed.

Hell, I'll start the campaign. Memorial Day in Washington DC. Meet at 10am at the Lincoln Memorial for a march to the White House. What better day to make our statement then on a day where we recognize all those who defended the Constitution of the United States. Who of you will be with me? Who will pass it along to every gun owner they know? Get numbers, get the NRA and GOAL involved. PUSH to get our day to let the world know enough is enough! I'm not joking here. For those in the know, how do we make this happen!?!?! Until we do this, we can complain right up until they take all of our second ammendment rights away. Hell, we'll make it easy for them.

 

[Old Dog]

there are many in this "gun culture" who somehow, someway, believe and will continue to believe until they spend some time and money defending themselves against Leviathon, that the U.S. Government as presently constituted, its police and enforcement arms, and their elected representatives, are THEIR FRIENDS.

So all members of the U.S. government, all police and law enforcement agencies, and all elected representatives are the enemy of the gun culture?

Until such a time, most people will go along with thier lives, as if in a trance, believing like the elephant tied to the stake when young and become accustomed to its condition, that they are a "free" people who have the ability to change their government...a myth propogated by government schools, useful idiots, and effective propoganda.

So pray elaborate, Wllm. Legrand, on whether you believe there to be countries on this planet wherein one might be more "free" than in the U.S.

Until such time as that, you will find many, such as myself, at hard opposition to those that excuse, placate, and rationalize the abominations of the government as presently constructed.

And aside from posting on internet forums, what specifically do your opposition efforts consist of?

The type of extreme rhetoric we see demonstrated here exemplies the reasons we cannot sway the anti-gun folks; this sort of extremist chatter tends to drown out, in the eyes (and ears) of everyone outside the gun culture, all of our logical arguments and reasoning for the preservation of the right to keep and bear arms.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

So all members of the U.S. government, all police and law enforcement agencies, and all elected representatives are the enemy of the gun culture?

So pray elaborate, Wllm. Legrand, on whether you believe there to be countries on this planet wherein one might be more "free" than in the U.S.
And aside from posting on internet forums, what specifically do your opposition efforts consist of?

The type of extreme rhetoric we see demonstrated here exemplies the reasons we cannot sway the anti-gun folks; this sort of extremist chatter tends to drown out, in the eyes (and ears) of everyone outside the gun culture, all of our logical arguments and reasoning for the preservation of the right to keep and bear arms.

(personal attack removed -- don't do that again!) OV

I did not say all, only most Fed. employees and police. That they want such jobs is evidence that they should not have them.

As for other places, we've gone over that on another thread in the past. If you cannot remember the lines of reasoning from that thread, I won't help you.

What do I do to further the cause? I don'tneed to broadcast everything about myself for the entire world to read. And sticking burrs under the saddle of Statists such as yourself is sufficient for this "forum" (word used in the general sense).

As for my "extremism":

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice;
Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

I will not succeed in convincing others through rationale' or logic; If that were the path or the mode of accessibility, enlightenment (so to speak) or awareness to the horrendous B.S. and lies around us would have happened to most people who take the trouble to actually THINK about current events and history. But since thinking is not just concious attention, and most people seem to work hard to AVOID it, awareness probably won't happen. I'm not to blame for other people not addressing the contradictions in their beliefs, view of history, and political affinities that are everywhere for one to see.

I've grown tired of showing people this or that, or asking "..if such-and-such is true, and you are being told this (which is a lie), don't you think you ought to revist your position on 'fill-in-the-blank'?". I've learned that people do not want their "myths" shattered...I engenders resentment and even hate.

My kind of "extremism" is the kind that comes from working hard at developing a good B.S. detector...and I can't think of a better time to have need of one.

Work on it...I think you need one...badly.

EDIT: And anyone who thinks pro-gun vs. anti-gun is the crux of the matter is mistaken. The whole enchilada is on the line at this time...the gun issue is only subsumed within it.

 

[Brother in Arms]

Rockrivr1

I agree with you. Unity is needed, I know that when I say thats war for me, I wouldn't be alone. There are enough "Extremists" here that it would be a small unit of gun nuts that had to be put down. But I agree with you we need a unite front a group. The old age Divide and conquer is well known and true, today they pass laws that make it harder to be a cohesive group. There are various degrees of politics with people in this country over the same issue. It causes infighting and thus weakness. Also groups that oppose the status qou now a days are often called terrorist organizations. I think we need a continetal congress, 2006. So that we can prepare the best resistance we can. It would seem in this information age, that this is possible.

Brother in Arms

 

[Old Dog]

Old Dog (as in, one who is incapable of learning "new tricks'), you seem to neither read, nor understand.

Really? Perhaps you may want to work on your phraseology, then, in an attempt to clarify your positions for those of us whose graduate degree programs are at mere state universities.

That they want such jobs is evidence that they should not have them.

Rather sad that you've not yet discovered that there are good people, of noble ambition and character, working in government employment.

What do I do to further the cause? I don'tneed to broadcast everything about myself for the entire world to read.

Then your claims that you work toward the cause are meaningless.

And sticking burrs under the saddle of Statists such as yourself is sufficient for this "forum" (word used in the general sense).

Statists? The application of labels goes a long way in invalidating any logical argument one hopes to make. Tell me -- I am a statist because I do not believe the entire government is my enemy ... because I caution against use of extremist rhetoric?

I will not succeed in convincing others through rationale' or logic;

Truly a tragic belief.

And anyone who thinks pro-gun vs. anti-gun is the crux of the matter is mistaken. The whole enchilada is on the line at this time...the gun issue is only subsumed within it.

This is a valid statement, and one with which I heartily concur.

 

[tellner]

Joe Hill's last words were "Don't mourn. Organize."

A certain mindset holds that "collective" is a dirty word. The individual must always be primary. In the face of large, rich, politically connected and highly organized entities a million people going it alone is a million individual ants and as easily crushed. Much as the Market Fundamentalists, certain self-proclaimed libertarians and the depoliticized would like to believe otherwise the only thing that can stand against that is collective effort. Unfortunately "throw the bums out in Washington" has become "Politics is all filthy. Give up on it." It gives those who are opposed to freedom and democracy a clear field.

 

[V4Vendetta]

"Hell, I'll start the campaign. Memorial Day in Washington DC. Meet at 10am at the Lincoln Memorial for a march to the White House."

Oh, That's a great idea. I can see it now.

Reporter: "It appears that a large group of armed men are marching toward the White House. The National Guard has been summoned. The men are screaming "From Our COLD DEAD HANDS!!!!!".

*National guard arrive*
*Shots ring out*

 

[TallPine]

Also groups that oppose the status qou now a days are often called terrorist organizations.

As in Iraq. We might as well get used to it.

Actually, 4GW theory suggests that the unorganized "resistance" has an advantage over the organized govt because there is no headquarters, no heirarchal leadership, no linear supply lines, etc ... nothing specific to bomb and defeat. It's like trying to kill ants or mosquitoes - you can thin their numbers but not eradicate them.


As I said before though, it is hard to conceive going to battle because of a new law that just prevents (legally) buying such and such gun. Now, registration or confiscation is a different story...

 

[Brother in Arms]

v4
It would kind of be the opposite of lexington green April 19 1775. Only this time the Men would march on them instead of the other way around. The problem is, the patriots where already organized and had comitees of corespondence in each colony to coordinate moves against the british and held the first continetal congress in 1774 to help get a goal and get things more in order. They also had the Sons of Liberty which where active in all the colonies as individual organizations that worked together.

Perhaps we should recommission the Sons of Liberty. Make an actual political group. Something on the organizational level needs to be done.

Brother in Arms

 

[V4Vendetta]

"the Sons of Liberty"


I LOVED THAT GAME! Especially that fight with Vamp in the water chamber.

 

[KriegHund]

Too bad you have to kill solidus.
Not the point.

People(and i cant really blame them) dont want to put everything on the live..for well, everything!

Very few people are willing to spend the cash, the time, the effort, and the reprucussion for a march on washington, or elsewhere. It is extremely unlikely that until there are no jobs to go to, people will not make mass demonstrations. They dont want to get fired.

 

[Rockrivr1]

V4 - Maybe, maybe not. I read a lot post which say that if they come for my guns they will have to pry them from my cold dead hands or something to that nature. A lone person making a stand will hardly make the 11 O'Clock news. If say 100,000 American gun owners show up, that would gain national/international coverage. You think the National guard is going to start shooting at Americans in in the street while cameras are running from places all over the globe? Not a chance. Our message would get out to the world and congress would know that we are no longer small pockets across the states. We are now a unified front that has a message that we will no longer take our rights being stripped away sitting down.

Unless someone has a better idea, I see no other way of making this country realized that we've been pushed to far. Like I said before. We can sit around bitching about it or we can do something. I'm proposing doing something.

 

[solareclipse]

my ar is the line. i can live without machine guns and artillery but my AR is mine