What options for .45acp in a SAA style gun?

[TheVirginian]

Hi, My first post here. It seems like a friendly enough place considering we're all a bunch of gun toters. More importantly, I find more meaningful replies here than on other forums unless my quest is really specific. This one is specific and general at the same time, so I hope for a few well reasoned and valuable replies leading to several possibilities for me.

I am considering buying a Colt Army style gun. I've looked at Colt, USFA, Ruger New Vaquero and EAA Bounty Hunter. I've handled the Uberti and Blackhawk and ruled those out. I have yet to handle the EAA.

I am looking for specific calibers and I am sort of torn between .45ACP, .44 Magnum, and .44 Special. The reason that I don't care for the Blackhawk is due to its larger frame size (reportedly 20% larger than a SAA). So I am wondering if the .44Mag versions of these other guns would also be heavier like the Blackhawk to handle that load or if the standard .45LC size and weight has been chambered in .44... Also I have a .45ACP and I like the idea of keeping the gun in that caliber to give it the most classic feel (.45LC) but still have only one caliber ammo to source, which hopefully will be more affordable. So, if I can get the most common .45LC gun and then use moon clips to fit .45acp, I may just have the solution. The trouble is that I don't know what guns moon clips will reliably and safely work in. I also have a Winchester in .44 so I wouldn't mind too terribly using that as an alternative if the weight and feel of the gun was the same as the .45LC. So what would you do? What would Wyatt do?...
TIA!
-Bill

 

[owlhoot]

I'll try to deal with your specific concerns.

1. You cannot use half moon clips in a single action revolver. Well, technically, it would be possible with some gunsmithing, but you would still have to remove the cylinder to reload, hardly a speed reload. Single actions are loaded one cartridge at a time through the loading gate.

2. .45 acp cylinders/revolvers are available from several makers. I have three SA revolvers with .45 acp cylinders. Half moon clips aren't needed.

3. The EAA SA is an inexpensive revolver, but a decent one. It is slightly larger than a standard SA and uses the same safety bar as Ruger. However, my advice would be to stick with either a Ruger or a Colt/clone. Parts and after market parts are easy to come by as well as gun smiths who are thoroughly familar with both.

4. Ruger is now offering a new blackhawk model that is a throwback to the original that uses a smaller frame. This model will have adjustable sights. They offer the new Vaquero in a more classically western version with fixed sights. This model is available in .45 Colt but not .44 magnum. It would be fine with acp loads. If you wanted an acp cylinder, you simply buy a .38/.357 cylinder and send it to Cylinder and Slide or one of fifty other outfits and have them bore and chamber the cylinder for .45 acp. Not an expensive proposition at all. But it is extremely hard to get parts from Ruger, although their custom shop would probably do the work for you.

5. Colt and Colt clones are available in .44 special but not in magnum.

6. All .44 magnum SA revolvers will be on the larger frame size.

7. Wyatt would get a Colt .45 and be well contented with his choice.

 

[TheVirginian]

4. Ruger is now offering a new blackhawk model that is a throwback to the original that uses a smaller frame. This model will have adjustable sights. They offer the new Vaquero in a more classically western version with fixed sights. This model is available in .45 Colt but not .44 magnum. It would be fine with acp loads. If you wanted an acp cylinder, you simply buy a .38/.357 cylinder and send it to Cylinder and Slide or one of fifty other outfits and have them bore and chamber the cylinder for .45 acp. Not an expensive proposition at all...

This is interesting but I am confused. Are you saying that the .45acp round can be chambered in the .45LC cylinder without any modification? If that is the case, then I have no problem, I'll just buy a .45LC.

I am still interested in possibly a .44 special and I am wondering what compaies offer that option. I am seeing it in USFA, which looks super nice but it's expensive. I am not seeing it in Ruger New Vaquero, which I like also and it's affordable.

Assuming that I understand that the .45LC and .45ACP are not interchangable in a .45LC gun, then if I do buy an extra cylinder, would I get that from the gun maker (does it need to be fitted?) or would I send the whole thing to Cylinder & Slide and let them make one for it?

Am I being wise to try and keep two guns in either .45ACP or .44 Special or should I not be concerned and just get a .45LC, seeing that Wyatt would approve. I mean, I was thinking about buying more ammo at once and not having to search so hard for the LC stuff or perhaps pay more for it. This also brings up another related topic that is in the back of my mind. If it does get much more expensive, perhaps reloading is an option and that is another reason that I am considering keeping the calibers the same.

Thanks, that was a great help already.
-Bill

 

[Bill of Ojai]

Ruger catalogs a New Model Blackhawk in .45 Colt with an interchangeable .45 ACP cylinder.

 

[Gary A]

Are you saying that the .45acp round can be chambered in the .45LC cylinder without any modification?

The 45 acp round because it has no rim will slip deep into the 45 Colt cylinder and would not fire. A 45 acp cylinder has a shoulder milled into it to allow the round to headspace on the cartridge rim and therefore would not allow a 45 Colt to chamber. There is also a small, I believe, dimensional difference between the width of a 45 Colt case and a 45 acp case (the Colt being a bit wider). Result is, you cannot fire a 45 acp from a 45 Colt cylinder nor vice versa.

I have a Cimarron 45 Convertible with both 45 Colt and acp cylinders. The Cimarron (and other Uberti-made labels) come in several barrel lengths and configurations. Mine is the birdshead "Thunderer" but I've been thinking about getting a Model P (their SAA clone).

 

[20nickels]

Virginian,
I gather you don't want the Blackhawk size, but you want 45ACP to keep it simple. I can relate to that. My idea;
Get a Vaquero sized gun that is chambered in 45 Colt (preferably one that likes .452 bullets instead on .454) and that was also available in 357 mag. Then get an extra factory cylinder in .357 and have the chambers reamed for 45ACP, cylinder timed, etc. Put new cylinder in gun and voila!
Additional comments; You can use 45ACP magazines to load you SA by stripping rounds off one at a time into the chamber with your thumb. Also I would have this new cylinder's bores countersunk or completely faced off for .45 Autorim too as a touch of class and versatility. Sure, it will cost you $$, but is worth it in my book.

 

[TheVirginian]

Ruger catalogs a New Model Blackhawk in .45 Colt with an interchangeable .45 ACP cylinder.

Hmmm. I don't know how I overlooked that one. I think I asked a couple of Ruger dealers here about such a beast and they indicated that it was once but is now no longer available. I did get a chance to handle both a Blackhawk and a New Vaquero at the same place, so I am sure that I prefer the feel of the New Vaquero of those two. I'll have to see if I can find a New Blackhawk and see if it is any different from the style that I tried. It looks similar with the walnut grips but the black plastic grips might bridge the gap.

Now this raises yet another and obvious question. How much weight should I really be putting on the caliber issue vs the gun quality issue? I'd certainly like to keep calibers the same in an ideal world but if I can buy a better gun in .45LC, then maybe that is the way to go? I am going to have to price some ammo again and see just how big a deal it is.

For those of you who reload .45 and .44, how much do you save by doing this? What is the break even point in terms of number of rounds made to recover the tool costs? I know it's a lot of questions but I am just starting to get a few larger caliber guns and they are way more expensive to shoot than what I have typically shot (9mm).
Thanks again for the suggestions!
-Bill

 

[Glockman17366]

I think I asked a couple of Ruger dealers here about such a beast and they indicated that it was once but is now no longer available.

According to the Ruger website, the .45 Colt/.45 ACP Blackhawk Convertibles are still available.
I do know these fine guns are not in continuous production so you may have to wait a while (after ordering) to get the revolver.
I bought one last year. I had to wait about 3 months for it. Takes about 15-20 seconds to swap cylinders, if that long.

 

[rcmodel]

For those of you who reload .45 and .44, how much do you save by doing this?

From a reloading perspective, there is no appreciable difference in cost between the two.

Powder charges are similiar, as are bullet costs for similiar weight bullets.

rc

 

[TheVirginian]

For those of you who reload .45 and .44, how much do you save by doing this?

From a reloading perspective, there is no appreciable difference in cost between the two.

Powder charges are similiar, as are bullet costs for similiar weight bullets.

rc

Thanks for that. That certainly helps the equation. I was actually wondering about how much it cost to get started reloading vs how much you saved by reloading. In other words, if I spent X amount of money on the tooling and the supplies, how many loads would I need to make to recover the investment in the set-up vs buying relatively bargain priced factory loads? That's a mouthful, but I hope it makes sense.
Thanks guys,
Bill

 

[20nickels]

What RC said. Yes you will save $$ reloading, but you also must count your time and equipment costs. I started reluctantly for the cost savings, but it opens up so many possibilities and is very rewarding. Highly recommend it.
Nobody came right out and said the cylinder swap idea was crazy so it must be somewhat viable.

 

[rcmodel]

THR Stickies from the Reloading Forum:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18821&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238214

With a little digging to find current component prices, this right here will answer your question on cost savings. Figure a 7.5 grain powder charge for either .44 Spl or .45 Colt.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp

rc

 

[ArmedBear]

Nobody came right out and said the cylinder swap idea was crazy

At least the .45ACP is compatible with a .45 Colt firearm. That's more than can be said for 9mm in a .357, which Ruger also offers and IMO actually IS crazy (or dumb).

 

[TheVirginian]

With a little digging to find current component prices, this right here will answer your question on cost savings.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp

Thanks a million for that. So, I don't really understand exactly what I'll need (and I will read-up on it rather than ask a zillion more questions... really), so if what I am seeing there is about average, then would it be safe to say that reloading is about 30% the cost of buying budget ammo after your set-up has been paid for?

I'm seeing a 1000 rounds of .45 as costing about $575 via mail or at a local discounted price. So if I could reload those for $200, I'd have saved about $400. I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that it would cost me perhaps $800 for a decent reloading operation and supplies, so maybe it would be the 2000 round or $800-1000 point (factory budget stuff) before I really started to see the full benefit from reloading in terms of cost? That's a lot of rounds. I might be shooting that many at some point though.
-Bill

 

[ArmedBear]

I'm guessing that it would cost me perhaps $800 for a decent reloading operation and supplies

Didn't cost ME anwhere near that, and I have decent stuff.

But suit yourself.

 

[TheVirginian]

Didn't cost ME anwhere near that, and I have decent stuff.

Suggestions would be welcome. What does a decent rig cost, say for 4 calibers (.38, 9mm, .45, .44)? Consider that I have nothing, so I need powder, bullets, caps, brass, the whole shootin' match...
Thanks,
Bill

 

[ArmedBear]

$95 for this set: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...-box.jsp.form23&Go.x=0&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1

About $40/caliber for a die set. Less for some, a buck or two more for others. So $160 for all four calibers. I'd start with .45 and/or .38 first. You don't have to get all at once.

I paid about $56 for 500 Oregon Trail .44 240 grain bullets, around $45 for 158 and 125 grain .38/.357 bullets (500 pack also). $30 for 1000 primers. $20 for a pound of powder, give or take.

Say you want to start with a caliber, like .38.

$130-140 for a complete reloading set with a one set of dies, $45 for 500 bullets, $20 for a can of Bullseye, $30 for 1000 primers.

If you've been saving your brass, that comes out to what? About $230 for 500 rounds, and when you're done, you'll have a complete reloading setup, some powder and 500 primers left over.

Yes, you can get some really fancy and expensive reloading setups like a nice Dillon Progressive, but you don't need that to start, or ever, if you don't want to shoot rounds by the thousands -- and you will still use a single stage to develop new loads even with a progressive press in your house.

If you find some used stuff, you can go cheaper. If you want to go fancier, you can spend a little more.

Still, for the price of that one crate of .45ACP rounds you want to order, you could shoot your 1000 rounds and be all set up to shoot many more after that for a lot less.

And you'd never have to worry again about the lack of reasonably-priced factory ammo in a caliber. If you like the caliber, you load it and shoot it, end of story.

Furthermore, I've been learning a LOT about loads and shooting since I started. Reloading is fun, if you get into it.

 

[TheVirginian]

That's certainly encouraging. So it looks more like $400 for all four calibers and shipping, etc to get everything set-up, less the brass. I started saving 9mm a long time ago but I probably threw it out since. I kept finding it cheap enough and never shot enough to make to too worrysome anyway. now that i am looking at .44 and .45, things are starting to look more attractive. I don't want to spend hours on end doing this though and I am very precise about most everything that I do, well mechanically speaking anyway. That's why I was hoping a more automated process would be the way forward for me. I don't really see being able to start out with much more than what you suggest from a cost standpoint though. Times are tough right now.

I had a bad experience at the range the other day with some old Czech or Russian 9mm stuff. The US made rounds were flawless. So I'd like to get that quality but without spending an excessive amount of time on it. I'll have to read up on the reloading maker's sites about the production speed of the machines to find a suitable type.
-Bill

 

[ArmedBear]

I would skip 9mm at first, personally.

Revolver rounds are easier to deal with both at the range and in the press.

 

[rcmodel]

I think if you only look at handloading from a cost-saving perspective, you won't be at it very long.

For the time spent, you could just as easily get a second part-time job to pay for your factory ammo.

If you approach it as a new & fun hobby that adds to your shooting experience & enjoyment, it will be a lot of fun.

If you approach it as hard, time consuming work, to save you money, thats all you will get out of it, and you won't be at it very long.

rc

 

[ArmedBear]

I agree, though there are certainly IDPA types who load hundreds or thousands of rounds at a time, mainly to make their sport affordable, without complaint.

However, if you want to expand what handgun shooting means, to really know what you're doing when you shoot, it's a lot of fun AND it saves money for a given amount of shooting practice and enjoyment. A LOT of money, if you put it all together.

 

[rcmodel]

It remains to be seen if it actually really saves you any money though.

Once you start reloading, you tend to shoot a lot more then you did when you bought ammo at the store!

And there is always another fancy new do-dad to buy that you just can't reload another round without!

rc

 

[TheVirginian]

Yeah, this is why I am on the fence about whether to get on with it or not. I don't know just how much shooting I will be doing, but I definitely don't want to spend a ton of time loading. I do have other things to do...
-Bill

 

[madcratebuilder]

And there is always another fancy new do-dad to buy that you just can't reload another round without!

Some times I think the re-loading is the main hobby and the shooting is secondary. I love do-dads.

 

[fastbike]

Since you say the Blackhawk is "reportedly 20% larger than an SAA", I gather you haven't handled either a Blackhawk or an SAA.

I have both, a Blackhawk Convertible 45 Colt/45acp and a Uberti 1873 Cattleman. I don't find the Blackhawk to be that much larger and I definitely like the adjustable sights.

BTW, the 45 Colt/45acp is a hoot. Unlike the 357/9mm, same accuracy with either 45 cylinder