Why .40 when there is 10mm?

[el Godfather]

Bunch of guys stated capacity. Well, lets take glock for comparison. G22 .40 holds 15 rounds compared to glock 20 in 10mm that holds 15 rounds as well. In fact 10mm is what ends capacity power compromise debate between 9 and 45.

You move to 1911 platform, again same number of rounds but also same profile of the gun for the most part.

Someone above stated correctly that most people are just buying in on what they read on internet and have no acatual experience with 10mm. When making argument for .45 all these factors being discussed above are so flagrantly discarded.

I also noticed that in many gun discussions lot of people just try to justify what they already have.

 

[WhiteWoodsman]

Well the police force adopted the 10mm for a short period of time but due to recoil they submitted it and a few others to smith and Wesson to come up with something with knockdown power and lighter recoil than the 10mm and they came up with the .40s&w

 

[Cee Zee]

Everybody who says there is no appreciable difference in a 10 vs 40 vs 45 vs 9 vs 357 Sig vs whatever are saying the basic laws of physics don't apply anymore. E=mv2.

Then why aren't we all carrying .50 BMG pistols? You can only make things dead to the point of being dead. There's no super dead or anything to try to achieve.

 

[GLOOB]

This question is nonsensical. You can't fit 10mm in 99% of the guns chambered in 40SW, other than 1911's and specific Witness platforms.

This is like asking why 380 when there is 9mm luger.

How bout "why 45ACP when there is 10mm?"

 

[GLOOB]

Recoil depends on momentum. My Delta Elite has a lot more felt recoil than does my Government model.

A 200 grain 10mm will typically be ~1100 fps while a 200gr .45 will be ~950, this is ~16% more momentum (recoil) ignoring the recoil factor of the burning powder which is also higher for the 10mm.

I would do a couple of other comparisons, too. Say using the most popular bullet weight for each caliber, and then also comparing top end loads using bullets of similar sectional density. The difference in recoil might come out less?

But I'm too lazy to figure that stuff out. Besides, if you say your Delta Elite kicked much harder than your Gubbermint, I believe you.

My G20 doesn't kick any much different than my G21, so far. But I haven't shot a big variety of ammo through it. I know early Delta's had problems with cracked frames, so yeah, there is a difference. But maybe 16% isn't the best number to go by.

 

[tarosean]

I also noticed that in many gun discussions lot of people just try to justify what they already have.

Thats pretty much standard protocol for any message board/forum on every subject.


In addition, Ive owned a 1006 for many years, so I do speak from actual experience... Do my little test I previously mentioned. If you dont want to buy a timer, there are free apps for smart phones where you can set starts and stops.

Sure you can water your load down to almost nothing but then whats the point?

Its pretty much that simple.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

AGTman, in one post you've listed every 10mm that I'm aware of that exists. And what' the total number, 20? How many 9mm models are there- 200? 2000? More? I'm well aware of the ones you listed, but the announcement of another few models is more a "bounce at the bottom" than a resurgence. Bear in mind that you can still get ammo for guns made a century ago- that doesn't mean they're mainstream. I still think the 10mm is nearly a "dead letter". It may be about as popular as it's ever been but that's not saying much. Will it die out soon? Probably not, but I don't think you'll see it being adopted by many new agencies at least not for widespread issue. It could hang on a specialty round for some time and has potential as a bottom tier hunting round.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

BTW, I could say a 1911 is a pretty good sized gun! Bordering on enormous. Nearly three pounds loaded. And it's one of the more svelte 10mms since it's a single stack. A Glock in 10mm really is a chunk.

 

[mavracer]

G22 .40 holds 15 rounds compared to glock 20 in 10mm that holds 15 rounds as well. In fact 10mm is what ends capacity power compromise debate between 9 and 45.

Yes but double stack 10mm makes for a large grip, a lot of people just don't have hands big enough to be comfortable using it in a serious situation.

I also noticed that in many gun discussions lot of people just try to justify what they already have.

Yep and some can't seem to accept that their choice isn't the universal choice.

 

[Harry1969]

Looking at Underwood's loadings for 155gr:

.40S&W - Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps & Muzzle Energy: 582 ft. lbs
10mm - Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps & Muzzle Energy: 775 ft. lbs.

Seems like a significant difference.

Worst possible choice for SD ammo but if big numbers make ya feel special then this is the ammo for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxGQgnlPlb0

 

[TestPilot]

Why 40 when there is a 10mm?

For the same reason 38 Super is not a practical replacement for a 9mm.

 

[Mainsail]

I also noticed that in many gun discussions lot of people just try to justify what they already have.

Well, this is a forum, and talk is, after all, cheap.

People blather on about all sorts of silliness.

- High capacity [despite being unable to find a case where a citizen lost a gunfight because they couldn’t reload or reload fast enough].

- Round X is better than round Y because….. [insert some outlier occurrence that happened once and actually had nothing to do with caliber whatsoever].

- Bragging on a gun, brand, or caliber….[but in reality are so attached to the paradigm that concealed = undetectable, they really only ever leave the house with a mouse-gun and the bragged about gun sits at home gathering dust].

- Infer that anyone who doesn’t train like they train is dead meat in a gunfight…. [despite the years of actual evidence to the contrary].

- Equate police or military tactics to regular citizen self-defense… [apples and oranges; both fruit but very different].

I like my 1076 and yes, I carry it regularly. I like my 1911 and yes, I carry it regularly. I like .45acp and 10mm. I like 9mm too, only don’t trust it as much [and will admit it’s probably just fine for 90% of any situation I might find myself). I am not a fan of .380acp but my wife loves hers so I go with it [and she can knock down targets with a 10mm easily as well as most of the people in here].

In the end, just carry what you like and don’t get too wrapped around the axle with the minor details.

 

[el Godfather]

mavracer
I am not advocating my choice to be universal. I am just saying that capacity argument does not hold water. In size, its not bigger than .45 guns, but you dont see guys writting them off.

In nutshell review it is the COST of rounds and some highend 1911s in 10mm which is the controlling factor. If tomorrow cost of 10mm bullet drops to that of a 9mm and H&K Sig CZ etc produce 10mm pistols, you will not see these arguments any more.

If size and capacity were REALLY the issue then .45 would have been phased out years back.

 

[Mainsail]

Worst possible choice for SD ammo but if big numbers make ya feel special then this is the ammo for you.

I guess I should add:

- People that make assumptions based on….nothing.

I never said I carry this ammo; in fact I don’t. I just posted the numbers from Underwood and commented.

Worst possible choice for SD ammo ...

And:

- People that make silly claims but don’t (or cannot) articulate any supporting commentary.

Worst possible choice? Are you for real? I can think of a half dozen worse possible choices.

 

[el Godfather]

TestPilot
Would you try to replace your 9mm CCW pistol with a 38 Super?

That's why.

No but I would rather have a gun that can handle +p+ 9mm loads, .45 like H&K that can shoot .45 super all day long. My approach is to push pistol to its maximum safe limits and get the best performance out of the platform and round.

 

[TestPilot]

No but I would rather have a gun that can handle +p+ 9mm loads, .45 like H&K that can shoot .45 super all day long. My approach is to push pistol to its maximum safe limits and get the best performance out of the platform and round.

My approach is to balance power and recoil. Follow up shot speed is a concern. Speer GDHP 165gr at 480 ft.lbs. is already at pushes the limit of my control ability at speed as it is.

I have guns in multple calibers, but I have no worries about any of them not being able to handle any factory combat load within reason.

 

[Harry1969]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry1969 View Post
Worst possible choice for SD ammo but if big numbers make ya feel special then this is the ammo for you.
I guess I should add:

- People that make assumptions based on….nothing.

I never said I carry this ammo; in fact I don’t. I just posted the numbers from Underwood and commented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry1969 View Post
Worst possible choice for SD ammo ...
And:

- People that make silly claims but don’t (or cannot) articulate any supporting commentary.

Worst possible choice? Are you for real? I can think of a half dozen worse possible choices.

Try not to take it so personal. You're the one who brought up Underwood ammo and I'm just pointing out that it doesn't perform any better than the 40 S&W according to the video I posted which more than adequately "articulates" my point.

 

[LockedBreech]

The quickest and simplest solution to avoid getting heated over pistol caliber wars is to just own something from every major caliber, so you don't feel compelled to rush into battle and defend one.

I have nines, forties, a .380, .357 magnum, .38 special, and a lonely forty-five who I'll buy a friend for soon. I trust them all with quality, modern ammo (I use Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST exclusively) and I think they all bring something unique to the table. I like nine and .380 for carry and basic home defense, .40 for my car pistol (because barrier penetration is most likely to be a concern there and .40 excels at that), and .45 is just a delightful to shoot "thumper" with a hyper-proven pedigree.

I don't have a 10mm yet but I'll likely grab a Glock 20 since while I think the 10mm is overkill on human targets it's a darn awesome woods gun.

Caliber wars are silly when caliber peace is so much fun.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

T
Caliber wars are silly when caliber peace is so much fun.

Well said!

I think that most people on here are at peace with the 10mm. I have been meaning to pick one up for years now. It is a great round, truly.

I think the argument is that the 10mm should be replacing the 40 S&W. That is is a little silly, I think. Isn't there a 38 Super that has better performance than a 9mm? or a 9x23 Winchester? or a 9x25 Dillon?

shouldn't those be replacing 9mm pistols?

Also, if you are going to download the 10mm to lower recoil levels... you just invented an elongated 40SW.

Oh, and why is there a 40SW when the 357 SIG has almost same performance level (more performance maybe?) and it weighs less per magazine?

I say Love them all! shoot them all!
I would encourage people to not try and make out there personal choice as the best (end of debate). Its a lot like trying to tell people that they don't know what is best for them, so they should do what you do, regardless of what they want.
Most folks don't take to well to that kind of thinking.

We should be appreciative of the calibers that are offered and enjoy their strengths!

 

[Nom de Forum]

My approach is to push pistol to its maximum safe limits and get the best performance out of the platform and round.

That is not necessarily a good approach. Pushing a pistol to its maximum safe limits typically refers to pressures and/or velocities. One of the problems with doing this is that this can cause the bullet to exceed its potential for best terminal ballistic performance. In this thread an example would be bullets designed for .40 maximum velocities pushed to 10mm maximum velocities. Push a bullet faster than it is designed to go can result in the same as pushing it too slow, lower terminal ballistic performance.

 

[agtman]

Yes but double stack 10mm makes for a large grip, a lot of people just don't have hands big enough to be comfortable using it in a serious situation.

So you need "big hands" for "serious situations"?

More and more Alaskan guides and pilots are carrying a hot-loaded G20. But perhaps Alaskan men have bigger hands ...

And, of course, grip reductions on Glocks of all makes aren't popular, huh?

Okay, whatever, ...

 

[stchman]

Dear THR:
I see lot of praises for .40. However, why go 40 and compromise between 9 and 45, when you can have 10mm and the best of power and capacity. The cost is only a factor because economy of scales has not been optimized. If the demand for 10mm increases so will supply; hence competition and lower prices and increases variety in guns and ammo.

Thanks

40 S&W is not a "compromise" between 9mm and 45ACP. 40S&W has more energy than either 9mm or 45ACP. Also, 9mm and 45ACP are about equal in the energy department.

As far as 10mm, it has far more energy than of the above 3 calibers. If using 10mm over the other calibers, felt recoil and over-penetration would be concerns.

 

[stchman]

Yeah and trying to convince people that their 380 with modern ammo is just as effective as a 10 or 45 because they are faster back on target is equally futile. Honestly, how many more rounds does anyone think they can get off in your average gunfight?

Yes, people are so emotionally invested in their guns and calibers (1911 people) that it's silly.

 

[agtman]

40 S&W is not a "compromise" between 9mm and 45ACP.

That's true. The 10mm AUTO was the original compromise between the 9mm and the .45acp, specifically in terms of magazine capacity over the .45, but also with a heavier bullet of larger diameter than the minimeter. That it also possessed more ballistic energy than either was merely icing on the cake since that huge energy curve is what provides the 10mm's with its greatest virtue: versatility of use.

But the .40S&W IS a "compromise" cartridge in regard to shooter capability and aptitude - between those who can handle the 10mm and are willing to train with it consistently to maintain proficiency, and those who can't or won't.

To a lesser extent, the .40 is also compromise cartridge in the ballistic sense, in that it puts a form of low-end 10mm "stopping power (i.e., 180gn bullet @ 980fps-1000fps) into a 9mm-sized pistol. For certain public-sector folks with badges, federal & local, the issuance of a smaller, lighter pistol has been known to turn a frown upside down ... After all, the comfort of one's professional equipment is an important condition in the union contract. 'Course, that benefit never stopped any of the whining about the .40's "snappy" recoil during quals...

As far as 10mm, it has far more energy than of the above 3 calibers. If using 10mm over the other calibers, felt recoil and over-penetration would be concerns.

Dude, felt-recoil is totally subjective and, to a good extent, psychological. I always appreciated the story of the young lady who was handed a Glock 20, loaded with 15-rounds of full-power 10mm ammo, and NOT forewarned that she was about to receive a dose of the 10mm's horrific "donkey-kick" recoil. She proceeded to shoot the 15-rounds well and without complaint.

Not having known beforehand about said donkey-kick recoil, she of course experienced none.

As for the bugaboo of over-penetration, it's such a statistical rarity in justified civilian and police shootings as to be a nonissue. Civilian self-defense shootings aside, in L.E. today the overwhelming documented liability risk is from fired rounds that miss the bad guy and then go off to god-knows-where, although typically into innocent bystanders, either directly or from ricochets.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

You could say this literally about any 2 rounds of the same caliber.

Why .38 Spcl when there's .357 mag?
Why .44 Spcl when there's .44 mag?
Why .257 Roberts when there's .25-06?
Why .308 when there's .30-06?

This list is endless and the answers are the same.

Sometimes the most power possible isn't the goal.
Smaller calibers are often available in smaller and lighter guns both in handguns and rifles (short action vs long action).

With the .40 vs 10mm size of the gun is a huge factor. I love the idea of a 10mm but my small hands can't do it. Even the Glock 20SF is much too large. The G22 on the other hand is perfect.