Why a lever action rifle in pistol caliber?

[Jim March]

One such will be my next gun, in 357. Probably Marlin, maybe a Rossi 92.

Here's one reason - note velocities from an 18.5" tube, with power levels topping the 30-30:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

Heavy .357 Magnum

Item No. 19A20 180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.) Per Box of 20
$21.99
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Item No. 19B20 170 gr. JHC (1400 fps ME 740 ft. lbs.) Per Box of 20
$21.99
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Item No. 19C20 158 gr. JHC (1475 fps ME 763 ft. lbs.) Per Box of 20
$21.99
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Item No. 19D20 125 gr. JHC (1700 fps ME 802 ft lbs.) Per Box of 20
$21.99
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About Buffalo Bore 357 Mag. ammo

Our 357 mag. ammo adds more power than ever before to the 357 mag. This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver—this includes J frames. This ammo is no harder on your gun than any other normal 357 ammo. Please don’t phone us and ask if this ammo is safe in your gun. It is, providing your gun is in safe condition for use with any normal 357 ammo.

We don’t recommend this ammo to be fired in super light alloy revolvers as bullets may jump crimp under recoil, but the ammo itself wont hurt these super light weight revolvers. These revolvers are simply so light that the recoil is severe enough to cause crimp jump.

The below velocities are offered so that you can see what guns/barrel lengths give what velocities with this new 357 mag. ammo. You’ll notice that new S&W revolvers with short barrels are often shooting faster than older S&W revolvers with longer barrels. The new S&W revolvers are very good and are made with equipment that makes them more consistent and faster than the S&W revolvers of yesteryear.

Make special note of the Marlin 1894, 18.5 inch barrel velocities. Item 19C/20, supercedes 30-30 energies!!!

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1707 fps

5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

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Note by Jim: it's rumored that Speer will soon cease delivery of slugs to small performance ammo houses such as BuffBore, DoubleTap and the like. If so expect BuffBore to swap to the Hornady XTP 158gr on item "C" above, which would probably be just fine and might slightly improve accuracy.

 

[Ranger J]

They allow me to tell my wife that I actually bought that 1894C in 38/357 for her to shoot. I really think she needs one in .44 mag also. RJ

 

[dracphelan]

Also, someone mentioned needing to clean from the front. I've become more careful than when I started out, and I know you can mess up a bore cleaning from the breech as well, but I'm still less fond of putting that cleaning rod down the muzzle.

Actually, there are 2 ways you clean the Marlin from the bore:
1. Use a bore snake for light cleaning.
2. Remove the bolt. It isn't that hard to do, and you will need to do it occasionally so you can clean the entire action.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Well one of my friends was buying a Winchester 1895 in 405 Win, and a Winchester 1886 in 45-70; both recent last of the currently made Winchesters.

I've got bad news for your friend. The recent "limited edition" Winchester1895 and 1886 models were NOT made by USRAC in New Haven; they were made by Miroku in Japan. Miroku made all of the recent 1892 models, also. They just licensed the Winchester brand name. The recent shutdown of USRAC and the New Haven plant only affects the models being built there, namely the models 70 and 94 (and 9422, which ended production a little earlier), and perhaps the 1300. No other "Winchester" products have been made there in a LONG time.

Miroku has a long history of making Winchester replicas. Many of the them, like the Browning 92, bore the Browning brand name. They are generally considered to be high quality. The recent announcement that Browning now has the rights to make Winchester brand firearms pretty much guarantees that nothing in changing on that score -- Miroku will continue to manufacture Winchester replicas in Japan and stamp the Winchester name on them, and Browning will distribute them.

 

[Father Knows Best]

What kind of groups does the .357 marlin do out of the box? What are the triggers like? Aftermarket mods?

Also, someone mentioned needing to clean from the front. I've become more careful than when I started out, and I know you can mess up a bore cleaning from the breech as well, but I'm still less fond of putting that cleaning rod down the muzzle.

Also, what do the new ones go for, nowadays?

The Marlin 1894 in .357 is quite an accurate rifle. With good ammo, groups of 2-3 inches can be expected, and good shooters with well prepped rifles and good handloads may well do better. That's plenty accurate for a rifle you won't be shooting at more than 200 yards.

Triggers are generally very good. I've never heard of anyone needing a trigger job on a pistol caliber lever rifle, but they aren't generally used for bench rest competition so very light, precise triggers are not needed. The ones I've felt have been quite crisp and more than adequate for a field gun -- certainly better than a lot of the semi-auto triggers I've tried, lately.

I don't recommend any "aftermarket mods" on these rifles, other than perhaps different iron sights (I really dislike optics on lever guns) and an action job. An action job will smooth out the cycling, and may improve feeding if you find that you're having trouble (not common, and most feeding problems seem to be related to cartridges that are much shorter or longer than normal). On the Marlins, some people advocate use of a one piece firing pin, but it really isn't necessary.

Some people replace the iron sights. For cowboy shooting, I like a Marbles gold bead front, and a simple flat blade rear (my favorite rear is the Williams Dovetail Open Sight -- WDOS -- with interchangeable blades). That setup allows for very fast target acquisition, but isn't the best for long range shooting. For long range, I prefer a simple blade front sight (the bead covers too much target and doesn't offer a precise, repeatable hold point). The Marlin's stock rear sight is adjustable and is just fine. Some people like to use flip-up tang-mounted peep sights, such as the Lyman No. 2. They give a longer sight radius than the barrel mounted sights, but I find them fussy and unnecessary, so I stick with a simple barrel mounted open rear sight. Receiver-mounted peep sights were popular at one time, too, and you still see them on used guns.

Unlike Winchesters, you can clean Marlins from the breech with a rod, but it requires some disassembly. I don't think it's worth the effort. I use a bore snake to clean from the breech end with the bolt open, and use a guide on the muzzle for the rare occasions I feel the need to run a rod bown the bore.

 

[halvey]

I'd look at the Marlins. Lots of gun for your money.

 

[JTW Jr.]

love them lever guns , and yes you can have them modded and hot rodded.
I dig the "Big Lewie " & " Big Lewie Jr " from Yost-Bonitz .

 

[ChristopherG]

My Marlin 1894c (.357) has had three mods, all of which improved its handling and/or shootability. In order of importance, they are:

1--Receiver-mounted aperature rear sight. The Williams will mount into the tapped receiver holes with no smithing or fussing. This improves your sight radius tremendously, and allows you to really learn how accurate the gun can be. If you like, replace the front bead with a Williams Hi-viz fiber-optic, too. This makes for a fast and natural combo. Optics (scopes & red-dots) just can't be made to work as naturally on a levergun IME; been there, bought the Leupold scout scope, ended up buying a different gun to put under it . Using the aperature sight and a good handload, I've gotten repeatable 5-shot groups closer to 1" than 2"'s.

2--Wild West Trigger. This is a drop-in assembly that will make the trigger on your Marlin one of the best triggers you've got. Not cheap, but really good.

3--Replacement mainspring. The hammerspring on the stock gun is way overpowered. By using one of the springs made for cowboy competition shooters, you can slick up the entire action of the gun considerably. Not all that important, but a nice difference, and a cheap mod. Hasn't made any difference in the 100% reliability of my Marlin, either.

 

[redneck2]

I think that we've gotten to the point where, unless the case is the size of a milk jug and holds less than 1/2# of powder, it will simply bounce off anything you shoot. After all, unless it's a short-fat-long Ultra Wondermagnumloudenboomer, it's pretty much worthless. Just read the gun rags.

My friend has a .454 and was shooting some of my "Ruger Only" 45 LC reloads with 255 Keith Style LSWC's at an old cast iron bath tub at 75 yards. Busted a hole the size of a golf ball thru 4 layers of cast at that range. To say he was impressed was an understatement.

At Sixgunner.com there used to be articles about taking Cape Buffalo with a 45 LC. One shot IIRC.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

'Cause a 300 gr 44 caliber (.431 for you "technical" types) slug at 1800 fps is gonna go THROUGH dang near anything I point it at, thats why.

Long range? No.

But under 150 yards, anything under 2000lbs is in trouble.

 

[Father Knows Best]

'Cause a 300 gr 44 caliber (.431 for you "technical" types) slug at 1800 fps is gonna go THROUGH dang near anything I point it at, thats why.

Ouch!

Seriously, those 300 grain 44 mag loads are awesome. I think they could do a number on an engine block.

The one thing I wonder about is that they tend to be quite long, and some lever actions can be sensitive to cartridge OAL. What rifle are you using? Any trouble feeding those longer 44 mags?

 

[MikeS.]

I like the lever pistol guns because they are fun and inexpensive to shoot.

I also like them for home defense, they are fairly easy to conceal, they are easy to point and shoot and when a bad guy sees a rifle they think; Oh Shoot! Dang nab it...

MikeS.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

They are loaded to standard length. So they feed fine. When they get up there like that there is a little recoil.

Then we get into 444 marlin. That's where it gets fun.

Best description? Dump truck through a chicken coop.

 

[P. Plainsman]

I recommend two very wise aftermarket accessories for your Marlin 1894 lever carbine, mentioned above:

1--Receiver-mounted aperture rear sight. [...]

2--Wild West [Guns] Trigger. This is a drop-in assembly that will make the trigger on your Marlin one of the best triggers you've got. Not cheap, but really good.

Here's #2.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=259762

 

[ugaarguy]

I've got bad news for your friend. The recent "limited edition" Winchester1895 and 1886 models were NOT made by USRAC in New Haven; they were made by Miroku in Japan.

Ohh yeah, he knew that going in. Until the recent announcement that Olin renewed the license with Browning we weren't sure that there would be any other Winchesters. By the way that '95 in 405 is an octagonal bbl takedown - gorgeous gun.

 

[Bluehawk]

Having attended End of Trail cowboy matches several times before they moved it from California I have to say I have never seen any shooter cycle 10 rounds through a lever action in 2 seconds with any pistol caliber!
Having said that, I love my Marlins...I own three of them...45-70...30-30...and .357 magnum. My .1894CS .357 Magnum is my fav jackrabbit gun and they don't stand a chance out to 125 yards with the WW 125 grain hollowpoints I load for it! (it's scoped...my eyes are getting old)
Accuracy? At 50 yards perfect cloverleafs 1/2 inch or better...100 yards usually 1.5 inches or less. For jacks you don't need any better than that!

 

[Logan5]

I have a love-hate relationship with more recent Marlin and Winchester pistol caliber lever guns. I had a '94 AE trapper in .45 and a Marlin 1894 Cowboy limited in .44 mag, and I sold them.
Why? Well... I have a 1914 mfg Winchester '92, and stone age Marlin of a similar model in .38-40, and I found that the new ones compare unfavorably to the older. This was pretty much a matter of my personal preference, and of antique tang sighted deer rifles selling cheap in my area. I have a lot of Winchesters and a lot of Marlins, and my personal preference is old over new.
The new Winchester and Marlin both handled like a dream. I don't see anyone mentioning handling characteristics, but this is a big draw. They are light in the hand and qick to the shoulder, and surprisingly good with the stock sights, which leave a lot to be desired IMHO.
All in all, I'm just quibbling over minor details in design, and the pistol caliber lever guns are just such a clever, handy, and useful design that they'll probably never lack for a market.

 

[Bluehawk]

The new Winchester and Marlin both handled like a dream. I don't see anyone mentioning handling characteristics, but this is a big draw. They are light in the hand and qick to the shoulder, and surprisingly good with the stock sights, which leave a lot to be desired IMHO.

Logan that doesn't make any sense...you're saying the new rifles handle nicely are light and quick and have good sights and that leaves a lot to be desired...what more could you want in a rifle???
Am I missing something here?

 

[lawson]

my 1894c is my favorite grab-n-go rifle. it really does it all.

when i was young and went to buy my first deer rifle, i really wanted a levergun, so i bought a Marlin 336. i still hunt with it, but i kinda wish i had bought the 1894c when i only had one rifle, i could have had a lot more fun with it, as .30-30 is pretty costly.

my 1894 wears a 2x red dot scope. not very traditional, but it complements the gun very well. i can use it for everything from plinking, hunting, home defense, camp/predator defense. with the right loads i can get 3-4" groups at 100 yards, which is about as good as i get with my .30-30.

where i hunt, most shots are around 30-40 yards, so range isn't an issue. this gun will do it. plus, i have two .357 revolvers, so it makes ammo buying convenient. it has the added bonus of weighing 6 lbs, and it's short and handy.

if i could own only one rifle (and thank god i don't have to do that) it would be this one.

 

[dragongoddess]

Still learning. So what does this term mean: "crimp jump"

 

[ugaarguy]

So what does this term mean: "crimp jump"

As you may or may not know brass case is crimped around the bullet to hold it in place. Sometimes with the rounds in the magazine, and revolver cylinders too, under the forces of recoil the bullet slips out of, or "jumps" the crimp.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Having attended End of Trail cowboy matches several times before they moved it from California I have to say I have never seen any shooter cycle 10 rounds through a lever action in 2 seconds with any pistol caliber!

You won't see those speeds in a match, because the shooter is typically engaging multiple targets and that slows them down a little. On a single dump target, however, the top shooters easily do 10 shots in under three seconds. The world record currently stands at 2.04 seconds for 10 shots from a pistol caliber lever rifle on a single steel target. Videos of that record and others are available here: http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html

Of course, those are also very light loads, in all likelihood (probably 125 grain or lighter .38 slugs at around 750 fps). Still, I shoot full house 44-40 (205 grain slugs at over 1,200 fps) out of my 1866 short rifle in cowboy competition, and on a dump target I will typically have three or four spent cases airborne at a time. The point is that lever rifles can be VERY fast in skilled hands -- MUCH faster than bolt actions.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Logan that doesn't make any sense...you're saying the new rifles handle nicely are light and quick and have good sights and that leaves a lot to be desired...what more could you want in a rifle???
Am I missing something here?

He said that the rifle is surprisingly good (accurate?) with the stock sights, despite the fact that the sights "leave a lot to be desired." He wasn't suggesting that the rifle leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[sterling180]

Conveniant,for countries and states,where there are handgun restrictions and total bans in place.

 

[Radjxf]

I keep hearing how the 30-30 is so costly? Maybe compared to 38 specials, but when comparing the 30-30 to 44 mag, at least where I am, the 44 mag is always more expensive to shoot. Maybe you guys are alluding to the option to shoot 38spec or 44 spec unlike the 30-30?