Any reason for buying the cheap pot metal guns anymore?

He's trying to imply that cheap guns often don't work, while pricey ones always do.

Problem is if you go to any dedicated forum whether it is Glock, S&W, or Hi Point, you WILL absolutely 100% find complaints and people asking for troubleshooting advice.

A high price tag does not guarantee a reliable gun. While they are typically much more durable than a $130 pistol, the only way to guarantee a reliable gun is to test it, regardless of the brand.

1. When your home defense budget limits you to either a saturday night special or a baseball bat, the sns starts to look really good.
2.most of the people who buy those guns are not 'gun people', and have no idea how poorly made some of them really are.

stchman said:

A friend of mine and I were having a discussion and we both agreed that there is virtually no reason to buy on of the el-cheapo pot metal Saturday Night Specials anymore.

There is a difference between cheap and inexpensive IMO. A neighbor of mine had a Jimenez JA9 and that thing was a real POS. The firing pin broke after about 100 rounds he said. Visible tool marks on the outside, finish was bad, ergonomics of a brick. Even the magazine was poorly built. The QC is truly terrible.

When one can buy a Tanfoglio Witness or a SAR BP6 in the $275 price range, why would one choose one of the pot metal guns. Looking on Armslist I've seen used pistols for decent discounts, one can also get a police turn in Glock. Many choices. I regularly see Ruger LCPs brand new for $200.

I'm not a gun snob, but just a lot of those SNS guns are real crap.

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It just depends. I actually have a certain respect for Hi Point. They're not the best gun in the world, granted, but they work. It provides an option for those on a budget, at least temporarily, until they can save up the money for a Glock or whatnot. Think of a single mother on minimum wage, living in the ghetto with small children. Let's say something happens that forces her to get a gun right now, like a death threat from her ex or unwanted advances from a neighbor or something, a break-in next door, whatever. The Hi Point allows her to get a gun that day and still be able to buy food.

Speaking of the LCP, and it's wonderful new low price, I have a gen 1 LCP and one of the new ones since they lowered the price. The gen 1 is a solid little gun, never had any problems with it. The new one, however, is a piece of junk. The magazine doesn't catch right, and it won't lock unless you push up first, then push it forward. The magazine that came with the gen 2 LCP is also of conspicuously lower quality. The original mags said Made in Italy. These new ones say Made in America, and mine only takes 5 out of 6 rounds and still locks. I called Ruger about these problems, and they told me that the gen 2 was "designed that way." But I digress...

My point is that some of the "respected" guns going for low, low prices aren't any better than the saturday night specials. I would take a Hi Point over an LCP at any price. At least I can count on the Hi Point to go bang when I pull the trigger. IMO, the original Kel Tec is probably better than the LCP nowadays, which is a tragedy. In turn, some of the value prices guns might no be all that bad. Canik comes to mind. I don't have one, but I've heard good things. SCCY is another I wouldn't dismiss out of hand.

I don't have any experience with other brands of suspect quality, so I can't speak to them. From what I've read, though, they're really hit and miss. Some work, some don't. And the ones that work out of the box might not work for very long. There's also a debate as to what constitutes a saturday night special. I would lump Taurus, Kel Tec, and Charter Arms into that pool, and other would vehemently disagree.

Dont most of the plastic guns use some kind of cheap stamped metal for the internals?

Thompsoncustom said:

Dont most of the plastic guns use some kind of cheap stamped metal for the internals?

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I wouldn't call it cheap. Most plastic fantastics use a combination of stamped metal, polymer, and cast or MIM parts for the internals. That's pretty standard these days, and there's nothing wrong with stamped metal, so long as it's the right application. MIM, on the other hand...I'll take the old cast parts over MIM, but that's my opinion.

The quality of stamped metal parts depends a lot on the steel used and the heat treatment it received.

I don't trust my life to a gun unless I have tested it and have confidence it works and I can hold, aim and hit with it at reasonable ranges. Currently those include a H&K USP .40, a Rossi 58 .38, and a Raven .25, all of which have haters.

Would I buy a low price alloy frame from a low prestige maker? Only if I could testfire it. No test, no buy. I would recommend others to have the same policy.

I have a Raven and a Jennings. The Raven has worked 100% for several hundred rounds I've put through it. I had to experiment with different brand 22 ammo and once I found what it liked it runs fine. Pie plate accuracy at 10 yds is doable with either gun.

If it works don't fix.

stchman said:

I'm not a gun snob

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Yes, you are

stchman said:

I am talking about:
Lorcin
Raven
Jennings
Bryant
Davis
Jimenez

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You realize those are all the same guns right?

I think Hi-Point is just about the only manufacturer of this kind of gun left. If you need a gun and $150 is all you have and no more, a Hi-Point is for you. If circumstances dictated it, I'd pick one up in a minute. This being a firearms enthusiast's board, we tend to forget that not everyone is an enthusiast or has money. Hi-Point markets to those people, not us.

Kiln wrote:

There was a point in my life, which is over thankfully, when a Raven MP25 was my only option for defense and I was happy to be able to get it.

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For me, it was an RG25.

I still have it. It still puts bullets where you point it at 12 to 15 feet.

Aside from Hi Point, Cobra currently makes the same designs as Lorcin, Raven, Davis, etc. They also make nicer stuff.

And Jimenez makes the old Jennings/ Bryco designs.

Trunk Monkey said:

Yes, you are



You realize those are all the same guns right?

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Sort of.

They are all simple blowbacks but will not interchange many parts.

The brands that are actually the same, divided into groups:

Jennings, Bryco, Jimenez Arms (Bryco was shut down by frivolous lawsuits, and bought by plant foreman, Paul Jimenez. Jimenez dropped many models and continues to produce the mainstays of the Bryco lineup to this day.)

Davis, Cobra (Cobra buys defunct Davis Industries and removes buffer assembly most likely responsible for early slide failures present on P380. Cobra also bought and currently produces the entire lineup of derringers formerly built by Davis.)

Lorcin, Cobra (Cobra bought Lorcin tooling and redesiged the slide on the LC380/LC32. All other models, such as the 9mm, .25 auto, and .22lr were dropped.)

Raven, Phoenix (Raven burned down and reopened as Phoenix, still run by George Jennings at the time. The company later discontinued the MP25 in favor of the HP22/HP25.)

Cobra is sort of like a black hole for inexpensive firearms, snapping up defunct manufacturers, or at least buying their tooling. Their willingness to adapt is impressive. While other companies like Phoenix Arms and Jimenez build basically the same exact line as they have for decades, Cobra has also bought out Talon and Republic Arms as well as producing a couple of newer models and color options.

They are all simple blowbacks but will not interchange many parts.

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I don't think parts interchange even within the same year, make and model of pistol even if they're from the same production run.

My dad bought a hi point c9 about a year ago. I loved that gun and shot it more than he did. I put a few thousand rounds through it and had no problems with it whatsoever. Never had any hiccup. Last week I returned the gun to him and bought my own C9. First mag had one little problem (breaking it in) but the other 200 rounds since have been fine. I think that they definitely have a place today. I'm a poor college student but can still afford to buy a handgun THAT WORKS. I left the store with a brand new gun and only left a little more than $160 behind. It's cheap, I've never had problems with them, and they're readily available. My friend makes fun of me for shooting a hi-point but his $500 handgun has problems Everytime we shoot. All guns can have problems.

The primary trade off in buying these pistols isn't necessarily reliability. They are clumpy, harder to use designs made of materials that won't last as long as steel and aluminum guns.

There is almost no pride of ownership with these guns. They are like disposable utility knives. But they seem to work and if I felt the need for a nearly disposable gun for self defense, I'd buy one. I just wouldn't shoot it much.

C0untZer0 said:

I don't think parts interchange even within the same year, make and model of pistol even if they're from the same production run.

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Yes, they will. I know this for a fact. Cheap as they may be, parts are pretty cheap too, and I've fixed plenty of them.

Things like frames crack often in moderate calibers and that can't be fixed. Every Lorcin .380
I have ever seen had a cracked frame.

I never got the "what's your life worth?" algorithm. I've seen, at gun shows, some characters arguing the same, then leaving, with their families, in beat-up hoopties worth half what their carry guns were.

There is a surprising amount of people who will tell others they need to wait until they've saved up xxx$ for their carry gun, even it it will take six months. However, those same people won't leave their house tomorrow unarmed.

But I do agree that $200 Taurus pistol deals all but eliminate the need to buy any cheaper centerfire pistol for most people who want to become serious about home and self defense responsibility.

One can spend $3000 on "your safety" with a custom 1911, but have to contend with the dated and poor design of 1911 magazines.

The fact that so many people do rely on guns like that leads me to believe that people don't often take this kind of thing all that seriously. So I'm surprised when people only want to get serious when the Lorcin's come out.


If you are "serious", select modern, first quality, unmodified firearms for your defense. Otherwise you're throwing stones from a glass house complaining about other less than perfect firearms.

RX-79G said:

One can spend $3000 on "your safety" with a custom 1911, but have to contend with the dated and poor design of 1911 magazines.

The fact that so many people do rely on guns like that leads me to believe that people don't often take this kind of thing all that seriously. So I'm surprised when people only want to get serious when the Lorcin's come out.


If you are "serious", select modern, first quality, unmodified firearms for your defense. Otherwise you're throwing stones from a glass house complaining about other less than perfect firearms.

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This is my feeling. Your life is worth getting a good gun, but beyond that you're just gratifying yourself. A custom Nighthawk 1911 is no more reliable than a Glock.

People also have to realize that carry guns get a lot of wear. If you value the finish on a firearm, don't carry it much, especially if it's just blued. And if you're shooting as often as you should be, then it's not going to be a safe queen by any means. They're tools to be used up and discarded when necessary, not status symbols.

I consider personal weapons very important, so I believe that you should buy the best you can afford. If that means a Hi-Point, so be it. Much better than using your teeth and nails.

I'm going to add my two cents worth here. It may be an overlooked factor, but if you use your gun for self defense , it's gonna be taken from you and abused by the authorities.
Some times an inexpensive , reliable gun, is a better choice for most people. Lets face it in this case you get what you can afford , for some of us, it's what you can afford to throw away. So just maybe if you look at it that way, there is a place for these guns , as long as they work .

I'm going to add my two cents worth here. It may be an overlooked factor, but if you use your gun for self defense , it's gonna be taken from you and abused by the authorities.
Some times an inexpensive , reliable gun, is a better choice for most people. Lets face it in this case you get what you can afford , for some of us, it's what you can afford to throw away. So just maybe if you look at it that way, there is a place for these guns , as long as they work .

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Whereas I don't care if it's a 5000 dollar 1911, cheap glock, or something else. If the police have it. It did it's job and was worth every penny.. Even if it never gets returned or beat up in custody. Definitely the last thing only mind when choosing a defensive gun.

The cost of a pistol that I'd actually recommend someone use for defense is a band between about $350 and $800 (depending on model, of course).

Anything too cheap is going to have some serious cost cutting to live with. If you have to go cheap, understand the limitations. For zamak guns it is going to be service life and ergonomics, but maybe not reliability when new.

Too expensive and there is likely to to be customization or "features" that could negatively impact reliability or safety. Great for competition, but anything that is "tuned" can come out of tune. Guns that work perfectly right out of the box tend to not be very expensive.