Any reason for buying the cheap pot metal guns anymore?

[stchman]

A friend of mine and I were having a discussion and we both agreed that there is virtually no reason to buy on of the el-cheapo pot metal Saturday Night Specials anymore.

There is a difference between cheap and inexpensive IMO. A neighbor of mine had a Jimenez JA9 and that thing was a real POS. The firing pin broke after about 100 rounds he said. Visible tool marks on the outside, finish was bad, ergonomics of a brick. Even the magazine was poorly built. The QC is truly terrible.

When one can buy a Tanfoglio Witness or a SAR BP6 in the $275 price range, why would one choose one of the pot metal guns. Looking on Armslist I've seen used pistols for decent discounts, one can also get a police turn in Glock. Many choices. I regularly see Ruger LCPs brand new for $200.

I'm not a gun snob, but just a lot of those SNS guns are real crap.

 

[RX-79G]

Are we counting expensive pot metal guns like the Walther P22, or just cheap ones?

I think some folks still appreciate being able to buy a Davis pocketgun for $100 or a .45 Hi Point for $150. It's better than a sharp stick when you don't have $300.


Simple fixed barrel blowback guns are not easy to make out of plastic.

 

[Kiln]

If you haven't been there you'll probably never understand. For some people, it's either a $130 pistol or a kitchen knife. I'll take the gun.

There was a point in my life, which is over thankfully, when a Raven MP25 was my only option for defense and I was happy to be able to get it. That said the price gap between a polymer/steel pocket gun is closing. When a TCP is $200 and a JA9 is $180, the choice is obvious.

Yes they still have a place, although with inexpensive pocket guns around now they are becoming more obsolete.

I do think building a zamak gun, which is basically the cheapest material you can build from, and charging $350 is ridiculous and only possible because of ignorance.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Most of the street gangsters who used to settle for RG10s now demand Glocks.

The neighbors of street gangsters who are endangered by them may not be able to afford Glocks.

So I suspect there will be a market for inexpensive guns made of aluminum or zamak alloys.

I don't think any maker or importer offers a pot metal gun -- true pot metal has no purity or manufacturing standards and is notorious for corroding from the inside out (is pot metal even used today in toys, ornaments or trinkets anymore?)

 

[TimSr]

Bought this one in 1981 as a poor college student after getting robbed working in a gas station. Hundreds of rounds through it. Once replaced a $3 firing pin. Still carry it on occasion.




Bought this Hi Point a couple months ago for $159 just because I didn't have anything in 45acp. Plastic is the new "pot metal".



Just bought my son a RIA (Amscor) M200 in .38. Expect to try it out this weekend.

Sure I have better guns, but some of the cheapos can also be reliable protection for somebody on a budget.

 

[stchman]

Are we counting expensive pot metal guns like the Walther P22, or just cheap ones?

I think some folks still appreciate being able to buy a Davis pocketgun for $100 or a .45 Hi Point for $150. It's better than a sharp stick when you don't have $300.


Simple fixed barrel blowback guns are not easy to make out of plastic.

I would hardly call a Walther P22 an "expensive" gun, they can be had all day for under $300.

I am talking about:
Lorcin
Raven
Jennings
Bryant
Davis
Jimenez

It appears that Hi Point is the best of the low end junk guns from everything I have read.

 

[RX-79G]

The P22 is certainly expensive for something made of zinc and plastic. You can buy a Walther PPX 9mm for less than $300.


"Junk" is relative. Hi Points work and are safe, which can't always be said for guns 10 times the price.

I would judge a $300 P22 to be money foolishly spent compared to $100 on a Jennings .22. But I wouldn't buy either of them.

 

[Old Fuff]

Zamak

Few know it, but during World War Two, Colt made some special .45 1911A1 pistols out of zinc alloy. They were only required to function reliably for 3000 rounds, and were supposed to be issued in environments where combat was unlikely. When it was determined that regular production had risen to the point where supply equaled demand the project was dropped.

But the sample guns functioned fine.

It may truthfully be said that some of the pocket pistols being discussed weren't much good for anything but being used for paperweights.

But it wasn't because of the material they were made out of.

 

[RX-79G]

Zinc alloys aren't necessarily weak. But they are a cheap production shortcut that is barely more expensive than plastic.


As far as "pot metal" goes, as far as I can tell all of these recent and current guns, like the Cobra or P22, are made of Zamak alloy. While it is tempting to make it seem like there is a quality difference in the alloy, I don't think so. The design and quality of the other parts is certainly different between high and low Zamak guns, but not the alloy itself.

Either way, Zamak can be made to work for somethings, but not others. The zinc 1911 didn't have zinc slide - just the frame.

 

[C0untZer0]

Any reason for buying the cheap pot metal guns anymore?

There's almost nothing on them externally that will rust, and the internals are protected by light grease or oil.

I'm waiting for a Hi Point C9 to go on sale for $129~ish to get one for my bathroom.

That way I don't have to worry about a steamy bathroom rusting a nice firearm.

A) I don't think the C9 will rust
B) If it does I'll just take steel and wool and scrub the rust off and I won't care too much anyway...

 

[FL-NC]

I guess if all you can afford (or the value to your life is low) then a cheap piece of junk MAY be the answer, since it MAY work.

 

[MICHAEL T]

For some older people saving up even a 100 bucks . Might take a few months . They have same right of SD as the man with the Wilson 1911 . .

 

[Tallball]

If a Hi Point costs the same, the answer is probably no.

 

[Kiln]

The Cobra CA380 goes on sale for $109 frequently. The average price for a Hi Point now is around $160 or so. To the people who are looking at these guns the price difference of 1/3 may matter.

 

[kBob]

Old Fluff,

Could you point me at some info on zamak 1911s?

I knew there had been a project to make a "1911" out of stamped steel and it had produced some test pieces, but was unaware of any zamak guns.

I placed 1911 in quotes because the gun as produced had no slide safety or slide stop, no grip safety, and the mag catch was a simple spring protruding from the butt.

Only sort of a vague outline that looked 1911-ish. Reminds one of the rather nice Walther stamped handgun of the period.

Sort of an American "Volkspistole" as it where.

On the other hand that stamped slide with pinned in breech piece has been very good to SiG.

I think Ezell mentions it in one of his books.

-kBob

 

[Kiln]

The Germans also made a low pressure zamak grenade launcher modeled after their flare guns with a rifled barrel. It was called the Kampfpistole Z. Very cool old gun, I had one made if aluminum but sold it to a collector.

They made them from steel, aluminum, and zamak.

 

[Monac]

There are some people who want a gun for protecting themselves and their families, but they need every dollar they can scrape up for housing, food, medicine, and other absolute necessities, which can include anything needed for keeping their jobs. So an inexpensive gun is what they want.

Obviously, having a cheap gun that doesn't work is a complete waste of money, though, so what they want is a cheap gun that works. Ravens, surprisingly, had a good reputation for working, and I had an early Davis 32 automatic that was reliable with FMJ. But some companies, based on their current reputations, sell cheap guns that are best avoided. On the other hand, High Point has quite a few customers that that vouch for their guns...and like all gun companies some that don't.

So yes, I agree with the OP that there are some makers the world would be better off without. But pot-metal, or cast zinc guns as a class, are not a bad thing. It can be a perfectly adequate material, if used correctly and with decent workmanship.

Yes, it's not steel, it's not aluminum alloy, it's not a modern plastic, but it doesn't have to be in a gun that will only see modest use. The main point of it is to make that gun affordable, and right now, precision-cast zinc alloy still seems to be doing that better than anything else.

I would add that one of the biggest problems facing low-income shooters is trying their gun out. To do that, they need somewhere to shoot or range time, ear and eye protection, and cleaning supplies. That adds up to money they may not be willing to spend, especially because TV and the movies make it look far too easy to use a pistol effectively. Or because they hope that they just have to show a gun, and the threat will evaporate, which is pure wishful thinking. It is hard to get people to believe they need to practice even once, given the costs involved.

All the above is my opinion, freely given and worth what it cost.

PS- About pot metal: Jim K, whose experience is vast, once explained to me that the term comes from pots made of low quality cast iron, and was applied to guns via the use of such material in cheap Spanish guns. Thus it is not applied just to cast-zinc guns.

 

[Old Fuff]

Could you point me at some info on zamak 1911s?

Sure. All I have to do is remember where I read it.

 

[RX-79G]

I had thought the term "pot metal" referred to the basic casting methods that could be used with low melting temp metals like zinc, aluminum, magnesium, etc. You would melt them in a an iron pot and pour them. At one time any sort of lower temp scrap was thrown into the pot, so the term is pejorative because it isn't an exact alloy, but more like metal grog.

 

[Monac]

Sure. All I have to do is remember where I read it.

I'm sure it would be in Charles Clawson's book "Colt .45 service pistols: Models of 1911 and 1911A1", and if you've got $850, you can pick up a copy on Amazon. For a big time 1911 collector, it's actually worth it. It's an excellent book. I sold mine about 8-10 years ago, when I could get $450 for it.

 

[C0untZer0]

I guess if all you can afford (or the value to your life is low)

OK, you convinced me, I'm going to get a home equity loan to purchase a Pardini GT96S for when I'm taking a shower - cuz after all, I'm Worth IT !

 

[Jaymo]

I've been tempted to buy a Hi Point 9 or .45, just cuz.
But, I think I'd rather have the Hi Point 9mm carbine.
I used to have a Jennings J22 and a Davis ,380.
The Jennings was reliable. The Davis was not.
I sold them both. Kind of miss the Jennings, but the Kel Tec fits that niche much better (for me).

 

[entropy]

There's almost nothing on them externally that will rust, and the internals are protected by light grease or oil.

I'm waiting for a Hi Point C9 to go on sale for $129~ish to get one for my bathroom.

That way I don't have to worry about a steamy bathroom rusting a nice firearm.

A) I don't think the C9 will rust
B) If it does I'll just take steel and wool and scrub the rust off and I won't care too much anyway...

The internals (springs, pins, etc. are steel and will rust in that environment.

 

[C0untZer0]

No man, they'll have oil or grease on them...

 

[tarosean]

I guess if all you can afford (or the value to your life is low) then a cheap piece of junk MAY be the answer, since it MAY work.

Just because someone cannot afford much, they dont value their life??