Opinions on Conceal Carry Insurance

I use and encourage others to enroll with the US CCA the cheapest coverage is 149 a year and you get 300,000 in coverage and if you get the more expensive you can get coverage up to 1.2 million, if you want

45_auto wrote:
My attorney is a real estate and tax guy. Why in the world would I want him involved?

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So that he can give you a referral to a reputable and capable criminal defense attorney. Otherwise you risk being in a position of having to pick one out of the yellow pages at the police station.

CapnMac wrote:
They are now a 501 chapter-something, probably "c" and are self-supporting. If I remember right they are a blend of non-profit and not-for-profit organizations.

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AARP is a non-profit corporation recognized under Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(4) (i.e. Social Welfare organizations) that has several affilated non-profit and for-profit organizations.

pintler wrote:
Two things to consider:
1)I don't think homeowners policies typically defend against criminal charges.
2)Some don't defend against civil liability for intentional acts, i.e. if you accidentally injure someone you're covered, but not if you intentionally injure them - and if you shoot a burglar, it is usually going to be intentional.

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As I said, I got a liability policy written that specifically covers against liability associated with self defense (including self-defense involving a gun), provides broader liability coverage than just the use of a concealed weapon and was cheaper than the specific-liability policies sold by USCCA. So, yes, read your policy and shop around. You may find you can easily get more coverage for less money.

45_auto said:

My attorney is a real estate and tax guy. Why in the world would I want him involved? I would imagine that the vast majority of homeowners/CCW carriers have very little aquaintance with criminal lawyers.

I think I would prefer the recommendations of some friends involved in the law enforcement or judicial system if I had to go to court.

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hdwhit said:

So that he can give you a referral to a reputable and capable criminal defense attorney. Otherwise you risk being in a position of having to pick one out of the yellow pages at the police station.

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I don't think splitting hairs was meant by the original statement, and hdwhit looks like he was alluding to this.

When "Also your attorney needs to be your second call after 911" was said by Sebastian the Ibis, I don't think it necessarily meant JUST whatever attorney you happen to otherwise be doing business with. What was likely meant was to get ahold of "your" attorney in the context of "an attorney who works for YOU on this matter". (Feel free to correct me, Sebastian.)

Get the wheels rolling, whether by an attorney you have on retainer for this, by another attorney you know through other business, by recommendations from others, or whatever...but get ahold of an attorney who will be YOUR attorney.

I think money is better spent on other things. Think about the LEO who never pull their weapon in their entire career, then the % who do but don't need to fire, and the % who do use deadly force. I don't know the number but I think it is very small. CCW holders are even less likely to have to use deadly force and then, you have to be sued for this insurance to kick in. So, from an odds game I think you are in very, very good shape if you don't have it.

Insurance is based on the risk (and profit). If they can cover you for a little per year the risk is very small.

I'm likely over insured in many areas but don't feel a need for this. However, if you sleep better having it then by all means do so. Personal call.

Given the infinitesimal chance of actually having to use your weapon to defend yourself I'd say these insurance companies are laughing their way to the bank. I'll use my money elsewhere but to each their own.

@ Ghost In The Fog - I found this dated comment from (Truth In Advertising) tina.com about CCW Safe and I was interested if this is still their current position about judgements?

CCW Safe offers a subscription service that will pay your legal fees should you shoot someone in self-defense with your licensed and concealed weapon. CCW Safe makes it clear this is not the same thing as insurance, and that you won’t have to pay deductibles with their service. But they don’t make clear why that might be a bad thing. The terms of service notes that “any money judgements rendered against a member is the responsibility of the member.” So if you shoot someone with your concealed weapon and lose the case, you’re on the hook for the payout. If you’re insured, the insurance company should cover part of the penalty. Concealed weapon carriers interested in this type of service should be aware that CCW Safe does not cover money judgements. (emphasis is mine)

Thanks for any information..... Doc

Jim K said:

The logical organization to spearhead such an effort would be the NRA, acting like the AAA did in the early days of cars when they helped motorists get insurance for their "gas buggies" when no one else would. But I doubt the NRA would want to do that; they defend the right to bear arms, but have always been a bit skittish about where that leads.
Jim

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The NRA magazine I just received today (May 2017 issue) has large added cover pages on the front and back advertising insurance. The front shows "Introducing America's Most Comprehensive Coverage and Training for Those Who Carry A Gun" with an illustration of an "NRA Carry Guard Gold" card. More ad copy and contact info inside and on the back overleaf.

So I'd say they're getting involved in the insurance business. (Small print says it's administered by Lockton Affinity LLC - probably a regular insurance company they've associated themselves with somehow.)

I'll be checking this out over the next few days.

https://www.nracarryguard.com/

Frank Ettin said:

Nope.

See post 24 where I explained how this sort of thing works.

A further illustration of why it's useful to read a thread before responding.

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Thank you for your exact and concise "Nope" correction.

I mistakenly thought my comment ". . . probably a regular insurance company they've associated themselves with somehow" took in an awful lot of ground . . . which would include your " . . . arrange through a licensed insurance broker for one or more licensed insurance companies to underwrite one or more specialized insurance programs geared to the interests or needs of members of the club, association, affinity group"

I appreciate your setting me straight on this.

In related news, it seems that the NRA doesn't want nracarryguard competitors at their annual meeting: https://www.ammoland.com/2017/04/an..._6f6fac3eaa-5b083d3225-20740593#axzz4fHAKM3RT

Ghost In The Fog said:

I signed up for CCW Safe last week after I said in a previous post of doing all my homework. IMHO I feel they are by far the best at what they offer. Hands down. Don't read internet opinion- do your own research and ask questions of each company you are considering.
As an added benefit their service is the least expensive of all of them and they thoroughly explained to me why. Although cost was a consideration, it was not a deciding factor- if they would have been the most expensive, I would have still chosen them. They don't have the extensive library of videos and training materials as some of the others, and they don't hound you for "up sales" but they offer real unlimited protection. NONE of the others do. (Again, ask questions yourself, call them on the phone, write them email)
Some say all of these services are a scam, others say it is not necessary- Choose for yourself. It is your financial life if something goes horribly wrong and you have to legally defend yourself. The legal battle cost would be devastating to me and my family, why add that burden to an already horrible situation? I insure everything else I own, why not this? If someone tells me the courts might see it as premeditated or however the keyboard warriors want to spin it, well then I have lawyers to make sure that the courts understand why I chose to insure myself from violent, unprovoked attack. I'll take that chance.
They might not be right for you, but I like what they offer.

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I've have been a member of CCW Safe for several years now. My wife and I checked out all the others and decided CCW Safe is the best for us.

Saw-Bones said:

@ Ghost In The Fog - I found this dated comment from (Truth In Advertising) tina.com about CCW Safe and I was interested if this is still their current position about judgements?

CCW Safe offers is subscription service that will pay your legal fees should you shoot someone in self-defense with your licensed and concealed weapon. CCW makes it clear this is not the same thing as insurance, and that you won’t have to pay deductibles with their service. But they don’t make clear why that might be a bad thing. The terms of service notes that “any money judgements rendered against a member is the responsibility of the member.” So if you shoot someone with your concealed weapon and lose the case, you’re on the hook for the payout. If you’re insured, the insurance company should cover part of the penalty. Concealed weapon carriers interested in this type of service should be aware that CCW Safe does not cover money judgements. (emphasis is mine)

Thanks for any information..... Doc

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Hi Doc,
I read that Truth in Advertising article as well. One of the times when I was on the phone with CCW Safe, I was told they offered an additional policy to cover any Civil judgments. I didn't ask the cost of that and as far as I am concerned I don't need to worry about that end of it. I am in complete agreement with what some of the others here posted about the % of a chance I will actually be involved in an incident is just about zero. I also know my training and mental mindset, I am not looking to be involved- just the opposite actually. If I can find any way to retreat- I am out of there. I don't need to fight nor do I want to and safely retreating will always be my first choice if it is an option.
.
What my concerns stem from is that if I am ever in a life or death situation and forced to defend myself or family, that the cost to defend myself from our own legal system would not only wipe me out but I may not have enough funds available to defend myself completely.
Andrew Branca who wrote the Law of Self Defense says that on any given day, even if you are completely 100% innocent you have about a 20% chance of being convicted by a jury. Yes, there are a lot of random factors that go in to that statement, but he is an expert at this type of law. That scares the crap out of me. What if we are 100% absolutely without a doubt right in our decisions to defend our lives? That is a frightening thought.

Also when I think about it, why would they want to cover any judgments? Does that mean we can all just go out and start shooting without any financial consequences? I would hope not but that could be abused by one of the people that are of that mindset and used as an excuse to do something really evil. Most people that do that type of thing really don't even need an excuse.
When I signed up online that option was not offered. It might be based on where you live? I live in Colorado and you are protected from any Civil suits if you are involved in a legal self defense situation.
CCW Safe is the only service I can find that offers unlimited coverage along with other really good benifits. I don't ever plan on using their services but I will gladly pay $179 a year to know that if that dreaded day ever comes, my family wont be left financially devastated.

Frank Ettin said:

The immunity only applies if it is established that the use of force was justified. An acquittal in a criminal trial doesn't do that. It only establishes that the prosecution didn't convince the jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" of your guilt (Remember that O. J. Simpson was acquitted of the crime but hammered in the civil trial.).

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Thank you for your explanation, I appreciate it. I am only speaking from my own limited understanding of the details of law- witch is obviously not real good. I am only trying to help with the information I have found about the service.
I am so far removed from the legal side of it and do not understand the process. I am very fortunate to not have a detailed knowledge of this.
Again, I appreciate you helping me to understand.

@Frank Ettin - Having been a homicide investigator in my misspent youth and testifying at both the criminal and civil trials of a defendant, your clarification of when justification can occur is EXTREMELY important when you are making decisions regarding your exposure to liability.

Forewarned is forearmed. Readers of your post should consider themselves fortunate to be so forewarned -- been there; seen that..... Doc

@ Ghost In The Fog - I appreciate the response and your candor and openness to share and learn. The great majority of us are here to learn and we should be grateful for the opportunity.

Any opinions about the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network? Masood Ayoob is associated with it. My concealed carry instructor, who has a good reputation, recommends it. He isn't a fan of USCCA.

About USCCA: I can't tell you anything about their offering because of the incidents surrounding my original contact with them. After that contact they were hounding me for a response several times A DAY. When I tried to unsubscribe it was without success, so I contacted them by email and I told them they were annoying me and if they ever expected me to avail myself of their product that they had better stop the harassing emails.

I stopped getting emails from them, but immediately afterward I was deluged with spam. It got so bad that I had to close down that email account. Can I prove that it was USCCA causing the problem... no, but my email address never received so much as one piece of spam or junk mail, so I'll let you figure it out. Anyone else have this experience?

Frank Ettin said:

The immunity only applies if it is established that the use of force was justified. An acquittal in a criminal trial doesn't do that. It only establishes that the prosecution didn't convince the jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" of your guilt (Remember that O. J. Simpson was acquitted of the crime but hammered in the civil trial.).

If the plaintiff disputes your claim of justification, he can still sue. And if the civil jury finds that the plaintiff has rebutted "by a preponderance of the evidence" your claim of justification, the jury could find you liable and award damages.

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Exactly what would establish justification?

I just bought CarryGuard to cover me. I also have a very large rider on my homeowners insurance policy for anything at home, i.e. a civil case. Both do different things but CG gets me bail and a lawyer in a hurry. I have had a ton of training and feel that I can handle myself in the event of. Past that it a phone call to the CG and wait for the response. I am comfortable with what I have and if something else better comes along later it will get examined and compared to the current.

Mousegun said:

I attended a trial where the defendant was proven Innocent. He had three lawyers at his desk during the trial. I can only guess how much that set him back. My guess he will be paying out for a very long time because the word was he didn't have insurance.

It is a roll of the dice IMHO. I know many people that can buy the best policy going and not even feel a tickle and others that would do some monetary suffering with the premiums alone.

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Courts don't find you innocent. They find you not guilty. There's a HUGE difference.

Berger.Fan222 said:

In addition to the lack of reliable insurers, one concern I have is that having gone out and bought insurance to pay for your defense might be framed as a disposition to use the available tools in situations with marginal or inadequate justification.

This may or may not be real. But it stands to reason that those who think they need insurance may be higher risk to insure than those who do not.

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So having auto insurance means you're going to go out and drive recklessly? Having homeowners insurance means you're going to burn your hose down?

Sebastian the Ibis said:

Its all garbage. If you are facing serious criminal charges, you want to pick your own attorney, not be assigned the cheapest provider the "insurance" company can provide.
You will be provided a public defender anyways by the government, and they are at least experienced criminal trail attorneys.

Also your attorney needs to be your second call after 911, they can do a lot more the sooner they get involved. Any insurance company will just give you the run around before providing benefits.

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It's obvious you don't understand how these programs work. I have Texas Law Shield.

If I need them I call a 1-800 number and a lawyer will be there soonest. Their card sits right behind my LTC and also reminds you to NOT talk to the police till the attorney arrives.

Also many public defenders are not all that experienced, I much rather take my chances with an lawyer provided by TLS than some random PD that's handling 200 cases.