AR-15 Long Range Questions

In order to stay supersonic out to 1000, you're going to need 2900 or 3000 fps MV, using a 80 SMK as an example. 1:8 twist minimum to stabilize that bullet. Maybe even a faster twist to keep it stable once things slow down at long range.

I'm thinking you're going to need at least a 24" barrel to accomplish that.

Plan on shooting 300-600 yard with an AR15. Goggle "long range AR build" and you'll find lots more info on this. Also visit AR-15.com and the AR fanatics there are always willing to conjure up low cost build parts. Some know a lot of what they're talking about. I mentioned 300/600 yards as it is difficult to find firing ranges longer than that in most areas. I bought an AR as a fun rifle for shooting while I let my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel cool while at the range. I got an S&W MP-15 Sport for $425 and put a Mueller 8-32x44 scope on it. I shoot it at 100-200 yards and it does OK using Freedom Munitions "new" ammo (not FMJ loads). Under 2" at 100.

You have access to a 1000 yd range?

entropy said:

I'm building a Drag Race Car, and the platform I've chosen is the VW Beetle. See the similarity?

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digression warning
I once put a 273 Chrysler V8 (where the back seat belonged) in a VW.
re: the OP w .223
What you'll need, IMO.
bullets ≥80gr, which will require single loading because of OAL
barrel ≥ 24", with a 1:7 (or faster) twist
at least 3x the $$$ that it would take to get there with a bolt gun

Buy a 24" upper with a 1:7 twist barrel. Install a target trigger and a Nikon 3.5-14 scope. Shoot the black hills version of MK 262 Mod 1 ammo.

This should be around your $700 goal and get you as close to a long range AR in 5.56 as you can get.

Add a QD scope mount if you don't want to sight in your scope every time you visit the range.

stoky said:

digression warning
I once put a 273 Chrysler V8 (where the back seat belonged) in a VW.
re: the OP w .223
What you'll need, IMO.
bullets ≥80gr, which will require single loading because of OAL
barrel ≥ 24", with a 1:7 (or faster) twist
at least 3x the $$$ that it would take to get there with a bolt gun

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Yep. I could build you an AR that would get you what you want, more or less, for 700, but it would be very plain. Basically it would be a 300 dollar AR with a 350 dollar barrel in it, and that wouldn't leave you anything left over for a decent trigger. That's not to say you couldn't make the milspec trigger work, at least until you could get something better, but like someone else said it would just be terrible at everything.

On the other hand, you could get a relatively inexpensive bolt action rifle, like a Savage, that would outshoot it all day long. Put an SWFA high powered optic on it in a 20 MOA base and you're good to go. Especially if you buy the rifle used, I think the total package including optics would come in not much over your 700 dollar budget, so you could be shooting 1k yards by next week doing it that way.

jmar said:

Here's some more clarification. The reason for selecting the AR platform is mainly for the self defense benefits as well as a gun to learn long range on,

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My long range precision AR is not a good double as a self defense rifle... I have another AR for that. I have an AR that will ring gongs at 700 routinely, after that it gets sketchy fast. There are a lot of tradeoffs for building a gun that will reach out like that, most of which make it poorly suited for what I want in a close fighting rifle.

jmar said:

I think having a rifle only 8" longer is being emphasized to much.

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It's not "being emphasized to[o] much". From where I sit, the importance of those 8" is being overlooked by someone without experience, despite the good advice of several folks WITH experience.

As a direct experience anecdote, I have AR's in many lengths, from 7" to 29", including my match rifles which are 29", my Pdog rifles which are 22" and 24", my deer hunting rifles which are 18" and 20", my rifle course trainer which is a 16" carbine, and my coyote calling And deer hunting SBR's which are 10.5". The handling and balance change comparing my match rifle at 29" to even a 24" field rifle is a huge change in handling and balance, plus I lose 100fps, which effectively means 50yrds earlier transsonic transition. Swap that 24" for a 20" and suddenly the handling of the rifle is completely different - it stops living as a long range bipod rifle and shifts more to a fieldworthy short to midrange rifle. I gain some handling, but I also lose stability for long range shooting, and another 150fps. Cut that down to a 16" carbine, and carrying and maneuvering the rifle becomes even easier, but now I'm completely out of the 1,000yrd game, because I lose another 200fps...

So here's what those 8" mean to me, scientifically:

1) Velocity = Supersonic Range: In my 24" barrels, I can push a 73 ELD-M to 2850fps, pushing hard (and abusing brass, 2900), but I struggle to get it up to 2500 in a 16" barrel. That means the 16" barrel falls transsonic about 850yrds, whereas I'm still supersonic at 1,000 (BARELY). I can shoot pretty well to 600yrds with my 16" carbines, but the wheels fall off past 750yrds. Comparatively, I can comfortably get out to 800yrds with a 24", stretch it to 1,000 with relatively moderate success, and the wheels flat fall off past 1,000. With a 20" AR, I can sneak JUST under 1,000yrds before falling subsonic, so ringing the steel at 1,000yrds fits. I have ranges which extend to 1,200 and 1,600yrds, and access to longer if I like - but I dang sure can't capitalize upon those full lengths with a 223/5.56, regardless of barrel length.

2) Muzzle weight & torque = Stability on target: For a 0.750" gas block, that 8" of barrel between a rifle length 24" and a 16" carbine, both with hbar-esque profiles, weighs almost a full pound and a half more (1.43 lbs). With almost a pound of extra barrel positioned at the end of the muzzle (center of mass 4" beyond the muzzle of a 16" carbine) and almost a half pound more barrel under the handguard, that accounts for a SIGNIFICANT stabilizing torque on the shooter's bipod/rest/support hand, which is lost when shooting a carbine. Using an over-length handguard on the carbine will increase the forward stability of the bipod, but it also cuts down on the stabilizing moment offered by the barrel mass, so it's not a winning proposition overall compared to having that extra mass out on the end of the barrel.

So if you get away from your current position, which seems to be either or both ignorant or arrogant, and listen to folks with real experience - that 8" really does matter. If it didn't, nobody would ever build 24" rifles, we'd all be running around, shooting 1,000yrds with dinky little 16" carbines.

I'll reiterate also - you really won't be able to build a 1,000yrd capable AR-15 for $700, I really don't believe you could build the upper alone for that allowance. What you COULD do, however, is buy a $400 mil-spec carbine, just for the defensive and short range plinking applications, and pick up a $350-400 Rem 700 ADL, Ruger American, Savage Axis, Howa 1500, etc in 243win and still have a very low ammo cost, but be much more capable at long range shooting. The ammo you waste walking your 16" carbine onto target at 1,000yrds will cost more than the difference in buying a blasting AR carbine AND a long range capable budget friendly bolt rifle.

You're trying to make a Pinto into a drag racer, which is difficult to do anyway, and you're hamstringing yourself with a pinto-level budget... If you think you can be proud about hitting a 60" target at 1,000yrds every now and then out of a lot of rounds fired with a 16" carbine, then sure, feel good about that. If you want to ACTUALLY learn how to shoot long range, build an appropriate rifle. You CAN build an AR-15 which drives well at 800-1000, but you really CAN'T build an AR-15 Carbine to do so.

Varminterror said:

I'll reiterate also - you really won't be able to build a 1,000yrd capable AR-15 for $700, I really don't believe you could build the upper alone for that allowance. What you COULD do, however, is buy a $400 mil-spec carbine, just for the defensive and short range plinking applications, and pick up a $350-400 Rem 700 ADL, Ruger American, Savage Axis, Howa 1500, etc in 243win and still have a very low ammo cost, but be much more capable at long range shooting. The ammo you waste walking your 16" carbine onto target at 1,000yrds will cost more than the difference in buying a blasting AR carbine AND a long range capable budget friendly bolt rifle.

You're trying to make a Pinto into a drag racer, which is difficult to do anyway, and you're hamstringing yourself with a pinto-level budget... If you think you can be proud about hitting a 60" target at 1,000yrds every now and then out of a lot of rounds fired with a 16" carbine, then sure, feel good about that. If you want to ACTUALLY learn how to shoot long range, build an appropriate rifle. You CAN build an AR-15 which drives well at 800-1000, but you really CAN'T build an AR-15 Carbine to do so.

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This!!!!!! Yes THIS VERY MUCH! I'd add that a decent condition used bolt action .243 could potentially reduce cost or add value beyond the budget lines. Low recoil, much longer reach, still cost effective, and PRACTICAL for intended learning purposes. If you REALLY want to challenge yourself learning to shoot distance on a budget @jmar then grab a .22lr and shoot out to 200 yds. If you just wanna look cool to your buddies shooting out to 1000 yds with the wrong tool (and waste more ammo=money in one day than you would otherwise in a week) then by all means grab whatever you desire and blast away.
ETA, I think possibly, that most of us are taking your shooting goals more seriously than you are and thus you're not hearing what you expected, 1000 yd shots are generally approached with a specific goal, and for most people that have put ANY time into shooting long distance, simply hitting a 5' target is not good enough, rather, painting a 10-20" circle or smaller is the endgame.

jmar said:

Here's some more clarification. The reason for selecting the AR platform is mainly for the self defense benefits as well as a gun to learn long range on, the reason I want .223 is the low ammo cost. I'm not going to be competing or hunting so absolute accuracy and stopping power doesn't matter to me. I just wan't something cheap to build and shoot that I can use for self defense until I buy a better precision rifle which will be a boltgun in .308, .243, or .300 Win Mag. I'm not always going to be shooting at 1000 yards, mostly at 500-700 however it does need to be able to reach 1000. I just need help selecting parts for it since builds like this aren't done commonly and i'm new to AR's.

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How much experience do you have with the AR platform?
With long range shooting?
Why 1000 yards?
Do you really have a 500 to 700 yard range to shoot on?
Why $700?

I get the impression you picked figures that sound good. But really aren't ones you've chosen for practical reasons If I'm mistaken please excuse me.

My suggestion to you is to start with your self defense needs. Get a lower from PSA for $130. Then get an upper. You should be under $400 and probably closer to $350. Add an inexpensive red dot or flip up irons.

Use that to learn about ARs. Get lots of range time. You'll have a good gun you can rely on for self defense in the ranges you're most likely to need. Under 200 yards. And you'll become a good shot if you aren't already.

From there, save up some more money while you're enjoying this AR and learning what works and what doesn't. Read all you can on long range shooting. Then build another. Go the stripped lower route and put together a solid lower. Then look at the 6.5 Grendel. 1000 yards may be the far end but you should be able to hit 500 to 750 yards fairly easily if I'm not mistaken.

If you don't reload pick up reloading gear along the way. The Lee Classic Turret let can be had for about $200. Add a set of dies. Learn about powders, bullets and how to make accurate ammo. You'll need these skills for long range shooting.

FYI I started with and assembled AR sold it then went the PSA route. I bought my reloading gear piecemeal and have been learning. I'm now building an AR for 3 gun which I'm documenting here. My next build will probably be either a 6.5 as I recommended or a 300 BLK if the hearing protection act is enacted. So I'm following the suggestions I'm offering.

I'm a little curious about the 700 dollar budget as well, namely as to whether that leaves you anything for a scope and mount, and how much. Also if that 700 includes tools, or if you already have those, or you have some of those or what?

This probably should have been question number one: have you ever built an AR before? If not, then you are way, way, way ahead of yourself right now.

grampajack said:

I'm a little curious about the 700 dollar budget as well, namely as to whether that leaves you anything for a scope and mount, and how much. Also if that 700 includes tools, or if you already have those, or you have some of those or what?

This probably should have been question number one: have you ever built an AR before? If not, then you are way, way, way ahead of yourself right now.

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He really should read my thread on my build. I've totaled up what I've spent so far. And I've just completed the lower. It's a budget build but not a bare bones cheapest build. I've looked for deals and tried to pick the best values I can find. For his needs I'd say what I've done isn't going to work as he'll probably want a better trigger for long range but the trigger I went with for self defense to stay in a budget IMHO that means he'll have to compromise somewhere.

And that's before he gets into barrels.

And we could talk about self defense ammo vs long range ammo.

I hope I haven't insulted him and he'll come back with some thought out replies as folks here are very helpful.

MistWolf said:

z7, have you shot a Grendel out to 1000 yards?

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No I have not but looking over the potential ballistics show that it is better than 223 when you are limited with mag and barrel length.

I do shoot a 308 out to 1000 occasionally, target size is everything, a 30" gong is fun and easy ish. A 5" gong is an expensive way to get frustrated

I think a good answer for this situation is eventually two uppers at least, maybe two full guns, but a 18" can be a good start

PSA has a wide range of products. As far as I know they're made in the USA.
I've yet to see any reviews on them selling junk. Now don't get me wrong, it's possible but I suspect it's a real rarity.

I was actually going to recommend a bolt gun as a viable HD option that opened up a lot of avenues for precision work. However your opinion differs, I'll skip that can of worms and go directly to some parts recommendations for an AR.

Don't worry about making your AR into a side charger. A side charging AR is not intrinsically more accurate then a standard one. A true bolt action AR style rifle like a Tubb 2000 is a whole different beast, but way above budget.

For the lower spend the least amount you can on everything but the trigger. The lower in this context, exists to hold the trigger in position to work. If you feel the need to tighten the fit to the upper an accuwedge for about $10 is the store bough solution, folded up business cards do an excellent job for even less. Put as much money into the barrel as possible. You are in luck for doing this right now. In High Power shooting, the service rifle is now legal with optics and a free float rail, BUT it has a weight limit. Folks are selling their uppers with heavy wall free float tubes, and extra thick barrels under the hand guards for reasonable prices to be able to make weight. Find one that was an A3/A4 style (flat top, used to mount a national match removable carrying handle on), and bam you have an instant precision upper for your build, just add the optic. A quality High Power upper (White Oak as you have linked is an excellent choice, Compass Lake, and Keystone Engineering are two others I'll recommend without reservation) will pretty much be guaranteed to shoot sub MOA all day every day as the X-ring is 1 MOA on the target (okay 1.5 on the standing 200 yd stage, but the rest are 1 MOA). New expect to pay $700 plus for the upper alone. Used you can usually get one around $500-$600, and you can get a lower and build it out for less then $100 if you really shop around (not counting a good trigger). I just built something similar to what I described for $650 total (used upper for $500, and $150 to build a lower with a decent 2 stage trigger).

This is basically a turn key system you can use to get out to at 800 without having to reload. Black Hills and Federal target rounds will get you out to 700-800 rounds no problem (but not cheaply) with a good 20" barrel. Going to 1000 with anything other then blind luck, or a really big target is going to require reloading. As several have commented before me, you can get started reloading for reasonably cheap.

And for my last question of this post, should I get it chambered in 5.56 or .223? All I know about those 2 rounds is they are interchangeable but one has higher pressures.

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I'd go Wylde, which will chamber either. I'll skip the why part, in general avoid shooting a 5.56 round in a .223 chamber. A .223 in a 5.56 is fine. You can shoot either in a Wylde chamber.


-Jenrick

The Wylde chamber is the way to go. Keeps the military crap from overloading the gun, not so sloppy as to hurt accuracy.
White Oak is one of the top target AR builders in the business, you will not go wrong with their stuff.
A fixed power scope will help keep cost down. You don't need a variable to aim at a well defined target from a steady position. Consider something more than 12X. I haven't had my variable below 20X in ages. There are a couple of old hands on the www who will tell you that 10X is ample for all ranges which would be news to all the high ranked F class shooters I know.

My kid is a carpenter. He always kids around and says "I can do it cheap, I can do it good, I can do it fast".
Pick any two.
Zeke

jmar said:

That leaves me with $350-450 for upper parts, or if I go over budget a bit $550-650. Which from what I've seen I will have a quite decent quality AR. After putting a scope on it it will be a 1k+ build, which I'd say is above average.

Now any suggestions on the upper and barrel? These are the most important parts so I want to get it right the first time. I'm finding it difficult to find 24" barrels for sale, here's one of them I found. https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/barrels/223-5-56-varmint-barrels.html?barrel_length=8

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The problem with your $70 LPK, besides paying too much for it, by about 200%, is the fact you will be left with a schitty trigger which won't be suitable for long range shooting, not to mention a terrible stock for the purpose. The Luth-AR at $100 tends to be the cheapest long range capable AR stock suitable. The trigger in that LPK will cripple your rifle.

I offered advice, copied below again, to this point - which again, either arrogance or ignorance is leading you away from. The $350-650 you mention just doesn't buy a suitable upper. Note - the WOA barrel you link here is $295 just for the barrel. The Black Hole Weaponry barrel (Ritch's Precision) will run you somewhere $265 if you get their 10% discount (have built on over a dozen of them now, great barrels). So buying a $250-300 barrel, you're talking about $100-300 for a side charging upper & BCG, AGB, and free floating handguard - which isn't enough.

White Oak, Shilen, Krieger, Wilson, Criterion, and Black Hole are barrels you should be considering. NONE of these will facilitate a $350 complete upper build, as they will cost nearly that much, or more, just for the barrel.

Varminterror said:

$700 doesn't build a side charging AR with an AGB which is really capable of 1,000yrd shooting. A proper match barrel will cost $250-450 just for the barrel. Side charging uppers and carriers cost considerably more than conventional uppers and BCG's - trading $150 in parts typically for $350+ For the upper and BCG. It's pretty hard to build just a side charging UPPER capable of 1,000 yard precision for $700, before you even talk about the lower. $250 for the barrel, $150 for the handguard, $75 for the AGB, $300 for the upper and bcg, $30+ for muzzle brake and gas tube - that's already over $800 and only counts on a reciprocating side charger, and as CHEAP as things can get. Getting it done properly for around $1000 before optics is probably more realistic, and still doesn't leave you with a great stock or trigger.

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Get your budget up around $1,000 and you can build a very capable long range AR. $700 doesn't cut it.

Grab a Rock River 2 stage Varmint trigger, pass on that silly side charging upper idea, buy one of the barrels I listed above, and get a good free float handguard (Midwest are very solid and very affordable). Those components will get you there for just under $1,000.

I had a Colt accurized rifle a while back; match trigger, 24" bull barrel, free-float handguard with bipod, weighted buttstock and a 6x24x50 scope. That gun was a 12+ pounder if I remember correctly. With Federal 69 grain match ammo it shot very, very well within 400 yards (The longest range I had access to at that time). Even at that short(ish) range there was drop and drift to contend with, I can't imagine trying to hit anything consistently at 1k with a .223.

You won't get any benefits running cheap ammo in a target gun... other than saving a few nickels in exchange for mediocre groups, and pulling scopes off, re configuring it etc. alters your point of aim as you swap your scopes/dots around. It's a hassle that just isn't fun to rectify by going through the sighting-in/zeroing process every time you go shoot....just so you can get down to it and shoot.

Like the guys said, I'd say buy yourself an affordable AR 15 for the defense stuff, and dedicate another gun (Start with a Savage bolt maybe?!?) in a better long-range caliber for the long-range duties. It'll be a whole lot less frustrating, and once you're hitting with the bolt gun the satisfaction will make the wait to amass the funds and put them both together right worth it.

jmar said:

Yes I have a 1000 yard range, and yes I have shot out that far before. For some reason people got hung up on that 1000 yard figure, while I will shoot to 1000 I just want that to be the guns MAXIMUM effective range. I will be doing most of my shooting at around 600 yards. I appreciate all the posts don't get me wrong. But I think some people have the idea I don't know how guns work and that I'm totally new to them. I know enough to get me by. I fully understand that an AR-15 in .223 is not meant to reach 1000 yards. But it is very possible and has been done time and time.The only reason I mention self defense is because a bolt action is one of the worst imaginable guns for home defense. Which is why i want an AR-15. All I own is single action revolvers and a Mosin Nagant. No Glock, no shotgun, no semi auto rifles... And with increasing tensions in America and more crimes committed in my area I feel a sense of danger and want something that can protect myself if needed.

But I am also someone who can only afford a gun purchase every few years, and the gun I have been planning on getting is a bolt action but as I said I feel a need to protect myself. So why not just get an AR-15 for now and have some peace of mind while also being able to do some things I wanted in the bolt action? I would love to get an AR and a bolt action, but I just cant afford it. It's possible I could get the cheapest bolt action and AR I could find for around $800. But then I would have 2 completely stock guns with questionable quality parts. To me it just makes sense to build one gun to my specifications. After all there's more to buying a gun than the necessity of needing it. I'm spending my own money I want to actually like what I own so there's also the cool factor, and there's nothing cool about a $350 Remington ADL with a pencil barrel and a hunter config synthetic flexible stock.



So with that out of the way let's get back to talking about guns. Here's what i've found so far.

Spikes Tactical Lower - $100
Lower parts kit - $70
TAPCO buttstock and buffer assembly - $70
2 20 round PMAGS - $24

That's a completed lower. for about $250, or i could get a PSA lower as mentioned for $150, but I'm not sure about that company, does anyone have info on them are they made in the US?

That leaves me with $350-450 for upper parts, or if I go over budget a bit $550-650. Which from what I've seen I will have a quite decent quality AR. After putting a scope on it it will be a 1k+ build, which I'd say is above average.

Now any suggestions on the upper and barrel? These are the most important parts so I want to get it right the first time. I'm finding it difficult to find 24" barrels for sale, here's one of them I found. https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/barrels/223-5-56-varmint-barrels.html?barrel_length=8

I will check out Ritch Precision as grampajack mentioned. The scope i'm going with is a Mil/Mil SWFA SS fixed 12, with Seekins, AI, or Badger +20 MOA mounts.

And for my last question of this post, should I get it chambered in 5.56 or .223? All I know about those 2 rounds is they are interchangeable but one has higher pressures.

I will check out the build Hokie_PhD.

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Definitely go with the 150 dollar PSA complete lower. The lower is irrelevant besides the trigger, and that can be upgraded later when you have more cash. In the meantime (and this is generally discouraged but works in an emergency), you can stone the milspec trigger. It drastically reduces its lifespan and is very dangerous if you don't do it right, but it will give you a decent trigger until you can get something better.

Absolutely forget about a 24'' barrel for home defense; it's beyond useless for that purpose (I've had several 24'' ARs so I know of what I speak). You would be better off your single action revolvers. Even 20'' is too much. Hell, 16'' is too much, but there are too many downsides, both legal and practical, to going shorter so we put up with it.

So here's a compromise: get an 18'' barrel unthreaded without a muzzle device. Forgoing the muzzle device will make it the same length as many 16'' ARs, and only slightly longer than a 16'' AR with an A2 flash hider. That gives you a genuine SPR that is acceptable for home defense use. Just don't go overboard with the profile, and I would suggest a 1:8 twist. That will handle 77gr and still be able to handle 62gr for cheap plinking.

Put mildly, you're crazy if you don't go through Ritch. You're not going to find a barrel that nice for anywhere near that price anywhere else. You can get cheaper barrels and arguably better barrels, but both of those options kill your build.

Just get a 50 dollar upper receiver from Anderson or Aero. Trying to get something better will kill you budget, and therefore your build. Remember, the barrel and trigger is all that matters. Everything else you get as cheap as you can find, with the possible exception of the bolt depending on what you have to work with (you still haven't said whether tools are going to take a chunk out of that 700). And after the barrel and trigger, and equally important, is the scope and mount. Save as much money as you can in the build so you can put every last penny into the scope.

Find a clamp on gas block cheap. It doesn't have to be anything special, and can always be changed later down the road. Again, Model 1 Sales is where you want to get the handguard. It's an expense, but you can't do without a free floating handguard. Again, this is something you can change down the road for something fancier.

thats very enthusiastic, and I encourage you to update us with the results after (I know people do it, but I have not seen much of it), I would say 24" with a heavy profile. 1 in 8, or 1 in 9 twist, depending on your bullet weights. I occasionally shot at a 600 yard range in a non competitive way with a cheap (M&A parts) 24" fluted barrel with a 1 in 9 twist, and it did great. Im not a great shooter, so I do think a great shooter could make it work at longer ranges. To do 1000 yards, you'll need a scope that costs more than your budget I would think.

FN in MT said:

One CAN make a hit at 1K with a .223 in an AR, but there are FAR more efficient tools for that job.

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Exactly. I think the OP is barking up the wrong tree in trying to make the AR into a long range tack driver. That was never the concept of the AR.

jmar said:

Can we please keep this on topic which is building a long range AR-15. Not a home defense gun.

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You yourself mentioned that this is a self-defense gun. Here's your direct quote (emphasis added):

"The reason for selecting the AR platform is mainly for the self defense benefits as well as a gun to learn long range on"

jmar said:

For some reason people got hung up on that 1000 yard figure

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That's because you specifically said you want this to be a 1000-yard capable rifle. But the .223/5.56 is not a good 1000-yard cartridge for any practical applications.

That's kind of like if you said, "I need recommendations for a .380 pistol that's good for concealed carry and also bear defense", and then you got annoyed when people kept mentioning that .380 isn't a good round for bear defense.