AR-15 Long Range Questions

[grampajack]

I am worried 24" will be too long and heavy for what I want. Will a 20" will stay supersonic to 1000 yards? I've seen videos of a few 18"s shooting to 1k. I just feel like 20" will be a better length especially since I want to put a muzzle break on.

If you want any utility whatsoever as a home defense gun then going over 16'' is inadvisable. You could go to 18'' max, but I wouldn't. You loose a lot of close quarter capability for not much return in range. If you're going to go 20'' then you might as well go 24''.

Try using Hornady's ballistic calculator. Play with some different loads that have published data for different barrel lengths, and the calculator will tell you exactly how much drop and velocity you're looking at for different ranges. You can also guestimate velocity for different barrel lengths and be pretty close. After you get to 16'', you're looking at around 35fps increase per inch of additional barrel.

You might also take a look at this article:

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/12/ar-15-rifle-barrel-length/#axzz4mBslgMKP

 

[FL-NC]

223 at 1,000? Bad start.

 

[CapnMac]

put a muzzle break on.

Terminology matters.
You will want a muzzle brake, as in a device to slow, stop or arrest; not a break, to rend, tear, or reduce from a whole.

In the same light when you said to "put rounds down range" that will trigger some reflexes in some of us.
That's because quite a few of us were taught that more rounds =/= more accuracy; more rounds only = more rounds.

1000 yards is 120 yards more than half a statute mile; right about half a nautical mile. The average military rifle really only shoots to about 4 MOA, that's 41 5/8" out at 1000 yards.

The current record at 1000 yards is around 2 5/8" group size; that's from 18-19 pound .50bmg bolt guns with $800-900 optics heavily sandbagged and fired using only a little finger on the trigger. Not a lightweight, infantry rifles in close-in calibers.

So, when people suggest getting a bolt gun, they are talkign about developing skils as opposed to just tossing rounds down range. Of considered shots, taken after patient observations of down range winds and the like.

 

[horsey300]

I am worried 24" will be too long and heavy for what I want. Will a 20" will stay supersonic to 1000 yards? I've seen videos of a few 18"s shooting to 1k. I just feel like 20" will be a better length especially since I want to put a muzzle break on.

I would take barrel length over a brake (ESPECIALLY for the .223) ANY day if it came to choosing one or another. For defense, at night, the extra flash will just be detrimental anyway.

 

[grampajack]

I would take barrel length over a brake (ESPECIALLY for the .223) ANY day if it came to choosing one or another. For defense, at night, the extra flash will just be detrimental anyway.

This. You do not want to fire a braked .223 indoors without hearing protection. You will be instantaneously rendered blind and deaf.

 

[MistWolf]

I am worried 24" will be too long and heavy for what I want. Will a 20" will stay supersonic to 1000 yards? I've seen videos of a few 18"s shooting to 1k. I just feel like 20" will be a better length especially since I want to put a muzzle break on.

This chart will give you an idea of what kind of velocity gains you'll see at what barrel lengths

 

[Manny]

The folks in the CMP can shoot an AR @ 1000 yards and with iron sights too. Honestly, with the way AR prices have fallen lately I would look for A Rock River A4 National match rifle or Varmint rifle with a 20" barrel. They come with good Wilson barrels with 1/8 twist, Wylde chambers and good two stage Rock River National Match triggers. A 20" gun won't get you the last couple FPS of max loads, but will get you very close to what you'll get in a 24" gun and should save you money. A regular A2 stock is just fine to start with. The National barrel IS free floated, but has a tube. Shoots just fine, just a bit trickier to mount a bipod if that's what you want. Or just shoot it off of bags.

If you don't have the tools or access to them for free, they have to be figured into the cost of a rifle if you do it yourself. RRA's have a very good record for accuracy and reliability that has been earned in matches all across the country. A lot of times trying to cheap out and save money can be much more expensive in the long run. Sell plasma, turn in recyclables, rake leaves, do what it takes to get a good rifle to start with. You're most of the way to a new price with your budget, search for a good deal on used or come up with the difference to start out right. It'll save you a whole lot of frustration. Put your scope of choice on in a good mount, load up some good 75 or 77gr ammo and have at it.

Trying to cabbage together a bargain priced AR with no gun building skills for precise shooting is going to be an exercise in frustration. Buy one built right to start. Then if you want you have a good base to upgrade on, but in the meantime you have something that is already known to shoot good that has been built right with good parts by skilled AR techs. Such a rifle will shoot capably enough to let you get to 1000 yards if that SWFA has enough elevation and you can read wind. It'll shoot steller at 600 yards, which is a better match to it's capabilities, but that's not what you asked. Personally I'd probably play a little at 1000 yards, just to see what I and the rifle could do. But if I was going to really want to learn to shoot well I'd focus on shooting at 600 yards or so.

 

[Varminterror]

I am worried 24" will be too long and heavy for what I want.

I underlined "what I want" in your quote because you really need to decide what you actually want. This thread started out looking for a long range rifle, a 1,000yrd AR-15, 24" is not long enough for a proper 1,000yrd AR shooting 223/5.56. 1,000yrd Match Rifles are typically 27" or longer. Both of mine are 29". Back on page 2, you were touting your belief the opinions presented here that 24" vs. 16" barrels didn't really make that much difference.

You took my post the wrong way... I was in agreeance with you that I need a 24" barrel, I was saying that having a barrel 8 inches LONGER as a self defense gun is being emphasized to much. I want a long barrel.

You're shooting yourself in the foot by dragging this foolish "both ends of the spectrum" demand into your thinking. Either you want a 1,000yrd rifle, or you want a defensive rifle. A middle ground rifle won't be great for either. My long range AR's are 29" barrels, my home defense SBR's are 9" and 10.5" barrels. My coyote hunting/knock around AR's are 20" barrels, a bit long and heavy for home defense, and too short to stay supersonic at long range. In this case, "a master of all is a master of none," a 20" will work for anything, but it's not really much better than a 24" for home defense, and it won't be as good at 1,000yrd shooting as the 24".

Will a 20" will stay supersonic to 1000 yards?

JUST BARELY, as I mentioned previously.

With a 20" AR, I can sneak JUST under 1,000yrds before falling subsonic,

With a 20" barrel and a bullet like the 73grn ELD-M or the 77grn Sierra Matchking (HPBT), with BC's in the upper .3's and pushing ~2800-2850 and a 1:7" twist, at my altitude, I can cross 950-1000yrds above 1100fps, and the wheels don't completely fall off by 1,000yrds. At 1,200, it becomes any body's guess.

So far, it seems you're focused on factory ammo, or at least on magazine fed rounds, which also limits your ability to stay supersonic past 1,000yrds. By loading to magazine length, you're limiting your powder capacity and limiting your bullet profile. A 75grn Amax, now called the ELD-M, has a BC of .430, compared to the 73ELDM or 77SMK BC's of ~.360. I can keep a 75 A-max/ELDM supersonic clear out to 1150yrds, but it's seated out to 2.39", whereas the maximum mag length rounds at 2.260" with the 73ELDM and 77SMK fall subsonic at 950ish.

I've seen videos of a few 18"s shooting to 1k.

It's a parlor trick. Guys can edit whatever they want, shoot as many rounds as they want and pretend it's their first round fired, lie about target size, lie about range, you name it... If you look around, you'll find a video of Jerry Miculek shooting a 9mm revolver at 1,000yrds also - are you convinced a 9mm revolver is a good 1,000yrd tool? You'll find a ton of videos from recent years of the "milk jug challenge" where a bunch of people threw hundreds of rounds at a milk jug at 1,000yrds, taking video of every shot one at a time so they could act like it was a 1st round hit. Folks like yourself watching don't realize, a milk jug is a 1/2MOA wide at 1,000yrds, and delivering reliably 1/2MOA at 1,000yrds is something which escapes even the best shooters in the world - so your average slack jaw "Joe Igottarifle" youtuber certainly can't shoot that well.

An 18" AR will fall subsonic somewhere around 850-900, depending upon your elevation.

Also - if a guy puts up a 60" target at 1,000yrds, sure, a guy can hit it with almost any rifle. Give me an hour, a few hundred rounds, and a skilled spotter and I'd bet I could connect with a 22LR pistol on a target that big. If I want to feel good about hitting a target at 1,000yrds, I'm shooting at a 24" target or smaller. Making your target bigger to be able to claim a 1,000yrd hit isn't marksmanship. Throwing rounds at a target until you happen to land one, then posting a video online isn't marksmanship. I've shot my 10.5" AR's at 1,000yrds (which are sub-moa rifles at 100yrds), I can bang the 48" gong more often than I miss, but it's a challenge, and not really reliable. Switch to my 29" match AR's and the 48" gong becomes boring, and the 24" becomes the challenge.

I just feel like 20" will be a better length especially since I want to put a muzzle break on.

As I've said multiple times in this thread - 20" should be your bare minimum if you want to reach 1,000yrds. 24" will buy you additional stability on the bipod, and will buy you another 150fps. A 20" will get you there, but not as easily as a 24".

The muzzle brake isn't really relevant. It adds an inch and a half, and typically weighs about the same as the length of barrel it replaced. Recoil for a 1,000yrd capable AR isn't substantial enough to warrant a brake, and as I mentioned before, brake or no brake, you're not going to be capable of reliably spotting/calling your own shots through a rifle scope with the 223/5.56 at 1,000yrds. With a proper rest and technique, your scope will stay on target with or without the brake, but the dust signature and bullet strikes just aren't big enough from a 223/5.56 to be spotted from a typical 25x or less rifle scope.

Keep in mind - ALL of the above pertains ONLY to bullets with BC's around .360 or higher, and 2800-2850fps or greater. If you do something foolish like throw a 55grn FMJ out there at 1,000yrds, none of the above matters. A 55 FMJ, touting a BC around .240 and leaving home around 3200fps from a 20" barrelwill fall subsonic somewhere around 750yrds, and be an absolute mess at 1,000yrds. If you want to shoot 1,000yrds, feeding from the magazine, there really are only a couple bullets you can shoot. You'll also need a scope with at LEAST 60MOA internal, plus a 20MOA mount.

 

[Varminterror]

You do not want to fire a braked .223 indoors without hearing protection. You will be instantaneously rendered blind and deaf.

Have you ever fired a 16" AR in residential sized rooms and in the dark? Brake or no brake, you'll be just as blind and deaf.

The same amount of sound is coming out regardless of the brake, and the walls, ceiling, and floor bring it all back to you. Running shoot houses, I've never been able to tell any significant difference - they're all loud AF. The flash out front of a 16" AR is big, sure. Even with a suppressor, shooting indoors without protection is very loud. Not all indoor shooting is created equal - a big open indoor range lets a lot of sound get away from you hallways and bedrooms don't.

For muzzle flash in a 16", I'd contend a "fin type" with horizontal only ports will blind the shooter less than a plain crown. I get a nice, wide V shaped window on top of my rifle between the port blasts, whereas with my bare muzzle carbines, I have a ball of fire right in front of my optic. A circumferential brake or flash hider is worse than a plain crown for flash in front of the LOS, but a bare crown in a 16" isn't a free lunch - you're still going flash-blind.

 

[HB]

A2 or A4 style rifle will get you to learn marksmenship and be serviceable as a HD rifle. I've never shot at 1000 yards but I imagine you could lob them in fairly accurately (minute of car) with favorable wind.

 

[Gtscotty]

A 75grn Amax, now called the ELD-M, has a BC of .430, compared to the 73ELDM or 77SMK BC's of ~.360.

Are you looking at the old Amax numbers? Hornady's website shows G1s of .467 for the 75gr ELD, and .398 for the 73gr ELD.

 

[larryh1108]

There is a ton of great and insightful info in this thread. Lots of guys have taken a lot of time to share their experience. Now, if anybody but the OP learns from this help it will not be put up in vain. I, for one, thank the contributors. Great info, guys!

 

[Varminterror]

Are you looking at the old Amax numbers? Hornady's website shows G1s of .467 for the 75gr ELD, and .398 for the 73gr ELD.

No, I'm not quoting old A-max numbers. There wasn't a 73 A max to have quoted.

I'm citing pages 103, 172, 177, 208, and 221 for the 73grn and 75grn ELD's from the Hornady 10th edition reloading manual - .360 for the 73, and .430 for the 75. I've been shooting the 75 A-max, which is the same as the ELD, without the heat tolerant tip, for many years, and have been shooting the 75 ELD since it became available, and have been shooting the 73 ELD since it came out - my trajectories match up to the manual BC's. They aren't shooting flat enough to be ~.037-.038 higher with either bullet.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

There is a ton of great and insightful info in this thread. Lots of guys have taken a lot of time to share their experience. Now, if anybody but the OP learns from this help it will not be put up in vain. I, for one, thank the contributors. Great info, guys!

I know I've learned a bit.
I for one am very appreciative of those who put in effort to share what they've learned. I know I don't pretend to know everything. In fact, I consider myself very much in the early learning phase. But I read a lot, and get to the range when I can. So I share what I can. I learn by others doing the same.

I'm not sure about the OP. I think OP made up their mind that they wanted something and they were going to get what they want if they just demand that they get the solution. I for one am convinced that what they want is a tall order. One that could be solved much better if they'd be open to alternatives. But that's my opinion. I'd love for them to come back if/when they come to a conclusion and share it, especially if they could stay within the budget and accomplish all the things they stated in the original posts. That said, if they compromise someplace I see no shame in that as it's part of the learning process and hope that they'd own up and share it so we can all learn from it.

In my own case, I've shared what I have into my "budget" build and why I think it's going to be just about impossible for them to hit all of their goals. I'd love to see OP come up with alternatives to what I did and succeed. But we'll see what happens.

 

[Gtscotty]

I'm citing pages 103, 172, 177, 208, and 221 for the 73grn and 75grn ELD's from the Hornady 10th edition reloading manual - .360 for the 73, and .430 for the 75. I've been shooting the 75 A-max, which is the same as the ELD, without the heat tolerant tip, for many years, and have been shooting the 75 ELD since it became available, and have been shooting the 73 ELD since it came out - my trajectories match up to the manual BC's. They aren't shooting flat enough to be ~.037-.038 higher with either bull

From the website, which really should be their most easily editable and up to date source:

http://m.hornady.com/store/22-Cal-.224-75-gr-ELD-Match/

http://m.hornady.com/store/22-Cal-.224-73-gr-ELD-Match/

Perhaps a misprint in the manual? It would be the first I've heard of any of the newly published dopler measured ELD BC's being substantially overstated.

Edit: Ah, page 100 clears it up a bit, the BC's on the website are at the "industry standard" 200 yds, whereas the BCs in the 10th edition load manual are lower 800 yd BC's. So the website has BC's optimized for advertising, and the book has BC's optimized for actually working out your data. Given that the ELD 800 yd BCs are on par with the Amax 200 yd BCs, I would expect that on an equal footing the ELDs are still a good bit slicker.

 

[grampajack]

Have you ever fired a 16" AR in residential sized rooms and in the dark? Brake or no brake, you'll be just as blind and deaf.

The same amount of sound is coming out regardless of the brake, and the walls, ceiling, and floor bring it all back to you. Running shoot houses, I've never been able to tell any significant difference - they're all loud AF. The flash out front of a 16" AR is big, sure. Even with a suppressor, shooting indoors without protection is very loud. Not all indoor shooting is created equal - a big open indoor range lets a lot of sound get away from you hallways and bedrooms don't.

For muzzle flash in a 16", I'd contend a "fin type" with horizontal only ports will blind the shooter less than a plain crown. I get a nice, wide V shaped window on top of my rifle between the port blasts, whereas with my bare muzzle carbines, I have a ball of fire right in front of my optic. A circumferential brake or flash hider is worse than a plain crown for flash in front of the LOS, but a bare crown in a 16" isn't a free lunch - you're still going flash-blind.

I get what you're saying, but it just doesn't pan out that way for me. If you're in a small room then maybe there's no difference, but a brake almost always results in higher decibels at the ear. I think it's particularly dangerous in doorways and hallways. With a flash hider the concussion is sent down the hallways or out the doorway, but with a brake it's sent out laterally and you might just as well have fired the gun in a four by four closet.

With the ammo I use an A2 flash hider more than does its job on a 16'' barrel. If we were talking M855A1 from a 10'' barrel maybe not, but flash hiders work really well under normal conditions. And of course it all depends on the brake, but a traditional brake will blind the hell out of you in the dark, even compared to a bare crown.

 

[Varminterror]

It would be the first I've heard of any of the newly published dopler measured ELD BC's being substantially overstated.

Kick on your google fu. Lots of us have been truing the BC's for the ELD's since they came out and coming up with numbers considerably lower than what's published on the website.

If a guy is happy to live with some fudge, or force the published BC by only truing MV, then the published BC's are close enough, in general. .038's a pretty big gap, however. I'd have noticed that if it were true, as I'd be overshooting all of my targets.

Given that the ELD 800 yd BCs are on par with the Amax 200 yd BCs, I would expect that on an equal footing the ELDs are still a good bit slicker.

I haven't seen any significant difference under 500-600 with the 75 ELD. It hits a bit higher at 800 and 1000, but not enough I would scrap my dope from the Amax.

Interestingly enough, the 75 Amax is listed with a higher BC than the ELD in the manuals. .435 for the Amax, .430 for the ELD. I've shot about a thousand of the ELD's since they became available, I haven't seen a significant difference - I'm still working from the same range cards, and banging the gong just the same as the 75 Amax's always have.

 

[horsey300]

I hope the op pays attention to the points made about the difference between brakes, flash suppressor/hiders, and bare muzzle and especially the iteration on usefulness of such devices for long range shooting foe such a small bore and the impact it renders for home defense as well. I'm losing concern for education though as it seems that no matter what advice is offered to the contrary, this thread is going to result in some hard lessons somewhere down the line and until then I predict much tail chasing. As for true relevance, A. You CAN move from room to room with a short barrel. B. You CAN shoot 1000 yards with a LONG barrel. C. You CAN hunt with carbine length barrels. If you want activities A and B you need tools fitted for the job. Use your single action revolvers for home defense until you get a defensive carbine or sbr, you've already gone this long without one and get a better suited long range rig. OR buy a pump action shotgun for defense, $200ish out the door, AND a decent bolt action for <$500 and you've solved both problems, met your budget requirements, AND are suddenly more capable of obtaining every goal you've stated.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Play with some different loads that have published data for different barrel lengths, and the calculator will tell you exactly how much drop and velocity you're looking at for different ranges. You can also guestimate velocity for different barrel lengths and be pretty close. After you get to 16'', you're looking at around 35fps increase per inch of additional barrel.

Ballistic calculators are rarely exact regarding the sonic transition, because even if the muzzle velocity is known, the BC dependence on range and the environmental conditions are not usually known so well.

.223s at 1000 yards tend to require the highest BC bullets (80-90 grains) and long barrels to be reloable performers at long range. The AR-15 platform limits the OAL to magazine length (2.260" or so) which tends to limit loads to the 77 grain and lighter bullets, which reduces BC considerably. Reducing barrel length reduces muzzle velocity which reduces the margin for error even more. Wind drift increases, and the odds of being buggered by the sonic transition increase.

There is a reason the new AR Tactical division of NRA high power only goes to 600 yards. With a 20" barrel length limit, there are a lot of rifle and load combinations that are simply not going to do well at 1000 yards, and it will be an exercise in frustration for a lot of shooters. Yes, some shooters (experienced reloaders mostly with a combination of skill and luck) will make it work. But some shooters will just be frustrated.

The challenges with stretching a .223 in a short barreled AR15 from 600 to 1000 yards are not insurmountable, but they are not trivial.

 

[wahsben]

I haven't read all the threads but if this hasn't been mentioned yet here's another possibility. Buy an inexpensive AR with a 16-18" barrel and also buy an upper in 22 Nosler with a 22-24" barrel.http://www.guns.com/2017/01/18/22-nosler-hot-new-caliber-cool-new-guns/ The one size fits all that you're trying to do really won't work very well.

 

[grampajack]

Varminterror, are we talking about Hornady's heat resistant ballistic tips? I remember when those came out and at the time I got the distinct impression there was some pretty serious smoke being blown up my nether regions.

I haven't read all the threads but if this hasn't been mentioned yet here's another possibility. Buy an inexpensive AR with a 16-18" barrel and also buy an upper in 22 Nosler with a 22-24" barrel.http://www.guns.com/2017/01/18/22-nosler-hot-new-caliber-cool-new-guns/ The one size fits all that you're trying to do really won't work very well.

In that budget range, I think he would just end up with two crappy uppers on a crappy lower. Not to mention he would have to buy two optics. You might be onto something, though. He could buy a Colt 6920, then save his money for a nice bench upper, or built it. I just don't see any way he can come close to meeting his immediate goals with 700.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Varminterror, are we talking about Hornady's heat resistant ballistic tips? I remember when those came out and at the time I got the distinct impression there was some pretty serious smoke being blown up my nether regions.



In that budget range, I think he would just end up with two crappy uppers on a crappy lower. Not to mention he would have to buy two optics. You might be onto something, though. He could buy a Colt 6920, then save his money for a nice bench upper, or built it. I just don't see any way he can come close to meeting his immediate goals with 700.

Grampajack or get an inexpensive PSA upper for the SD role then build a high quality one for long range. I'm pretty sure I suggested something like that earlier but it was dismissed. Or the dismissal was implied.

Personally I think if OP were to start with slapping a PSA lower and upper together they could do it cheap. They'd have the SD role taken care of. They could work on their short and medium range shooting skills while they save up to build what they think they need for longer range. Going this route I think they'd start to understand why folks are making the recommendations they're making.

They could then put together a nice lower, then build the upper. Save more for a nice optic then repeat. They might find how much fun building ARs are and how many options there are.

That said I'll disclose again that It's the route I'm going. I've already done the PSA snap together. I've already built a lower and I'm working on an upper. In my case the build is focused on a gun I'd like to use for 3 gun. But the learning is the same. Parts selection, looking for deals, and learning how to put it all together then how to use it effectively.

 

[wahsben]

Varminterror, are we talking about Hornady's heat resistant ballistic tips? I remember when those came out and at the time I got the distinct impression there was some pretty serious smoke being blown up my nether regions.



In that budget range, I think he would just end up with two crappy uppers on a crappy lower. Not to mention he would have to buy two optics. You might be onto something, though. He could buy a Colt 6920, then save his money for a nice bench upper, or built it. I just don't see any way he can come close to meeting his immediate goals with 700.

I agree in his price range I don't see him meeting his goals. Just a decent piece of glass is going to cost him quite a bit. His objective of a defense gun and a long range gun aren't really obtainable since the requirements for each are completely different. I just thought I'd throw it out there as another option which would serve his purposes better than just 1 rifle. He might be able to obtain decent quality through PSA or something at Midway or elsewhere on sale and I even got a great deal before from BCM on a blemished upper so he might be able to do something like that. He could also buy a used AR in good condition at a reasonable price and than the 22 Nosler upper.

 

[grampajack]

Grampajack or get an inexpensive PSA upper for the SD role then build a high quality one for long range. I'm pretty sure I suggested something like that earlier but it was dismissed. Or the dismissal was implied.

Personally I think if OP were to start with slapping a PSA lower and upper together they could do it cheap. They'd have the SD role taken care of. They could work on their short and medium range shooting skills while they save up to build what they think they need for longer range. Going this route I think they'd start to understand why folks are making the recommendations they're making.

They could then put together a nice lower, then build the upper. Save more for a nice optic then repeat. They might find how much fun building ARs are and how many options there are.

That said I'll disclose again that It's the route I'm going. I've already done the PSA snap together. I've already built a lower and I'm working on an upper. In my case the build is focused on a gun I'd like to use for 3 gun. But the learning is the same. Parts selection, looking for deals, and learning how to put it all together then how to use it effectively.

The only thing I have against PSA is that their premium line is only slightly less expensive than Colt, and it's not fully milspec. I would rather pay 50 bucks more for the 6920 and get a bolt that's been fully inspected and a carrier key with a milspec gasket. Not to mention a barrel that's been fully inspected as well.

 

[salt&battery]

I underlined "what I want" in your quote because you really need to decide what you actually want. This thread started out looking for a long range rifle, a 1,000yrd AR-15, 24" is not long enough for a proper 1,000yrd AR shooting 223/5.56. 1,000yrd Match Rifles are typically 27" or longer. Both of mine are 29". Back on page 2, you were touting your belief the opinions presented here that 24" vs. 16" barrels didn't really make that much difference.



You're shooting yourself in the foot by dragging this foolish "both ends of the spectrum" demand into your thinking. Either you want a 1,000yrd rifle, or you want a defensive rifle. A middle ground rifle won't be great for either. My long range AR's are 29" barrels, my home defense SBR's are 9" and 10.5" barrels. My coyote hunting/knock around AR's are 20" barrels, a bit long and heavy for home defense, and too short to stay supersonic at long range. In this case, "a master of all is a master of none," a 20" will work for anything, but it's not really much better than a 24" for home defense, and it won't be as good at 1,000yrd shooting as the 24".



JUST BARELY, as I mentioned previously.



With a 20" barrel and a bullet like the 73grn ELD-M or the 77grn Sierra Matchking (HPBT), with BC's in the upper .3's and pushing ~2800-2850 and a 1:7" twist, at my altitude, I can cross 950-1000yrds above 1100fps, and the wheels don't completely fall off by 1,000yrds. At 1,200, it becomes any body's guess.

So far, it seems you're focused on factory ammo, or at least on magazine fed rounds, which also limits your ability to stay supersonic past 1,000yrds. By loading to magazine length, you're limiting your powder capacity and limiting your bullet profile. A 75grn Amax, now called the ELD-M, has a BC of .430, compared to the 73ELDM or 77SMK BC's of ~.360. I can keep a 75 A-max/ELDM supersonic clear out to 1150yrds, but it's seated out to 2.39", whereas the maximum mag length rounds at 2.260" with the 73ELDM and 77SMK fall subsonic at 950ish.



It's a parlor trick. Guys can edit whatever they want, shoot as many rounds as they want and pretend it's their first round fired, lie about target size, lie about range, you name it... If you look around, you'll find a video of Jerry Miculek shooting a 9mm revolver at 1,000yrds also - are you convinced a 9mm revolver is a good 1,000yrd tool? You'll find a ton of videos from recent years of the "milk jug challenge" where a bunch of people threw hundreds of rounds at a milk jug at 1,000yrds, taking video of every shot one at a time so they could act like it was a 1st round hit. Folks like yourself watching don't realize, a milk jug is a 1/2MOA wide at 1,000yrds, and delivering reliably 1/2MOA at 1,000yrds is something which escapes even the best shooters in the world - so your average slack jaw "Joe Igottarifle" youtuber certainly can't shoot that well.

An 18" AR will fall subsonic somewhere around 850-900, depending upon your elevation.

Also - if a guy puts up a 60" target at 1,000yrds, sure, a guy can hit it with almost any rifle. Give me an hour, a few hundred rounds, and a skilled spotter and I'd bet I could connect with a 22LR pistol on a target that big. If I want to feel good about hitting a target at 1,000yrds, I'm shooting at a 24" target or smaller. Making your target bigger to be able to claim a 1,000yrd hit isn't marksmanship. Throwing rounds at a target until you happen to land one, then posting a video online isn't marksmanship. I've shot my 10.5" AR's at 1,000yrds (which are sub-moa rifles at 100yrds), I can bang the 48" gong more often than I miss, but it's a challenge, and not really reliable. Switch to my 29" match AR's and the 48" gong becomes boring, and the 24" becomes the challenge.



As I've said multiple times in this thread - 20" should be your bare minimum if you want to reach 1,000yrds. 24" will buy you additional stability on the bipod, and will buy you another 150fps. A 20" will get you there, but not as easily as a 24".

The muzzle brake isn't really relevant. It adds an inch and a half, and typically weighs about the same as the length of barrel it replaced. Recoil for a 1,000yrd capable AR isn't substantial enough to warrant a brake, and as I mentioned before, brake or no brake, you're not going to be capable of reliably spotting/calling your own shots through a rifle scope with the 223/5.56 at 1,000yrds. With a proper rest and technique, your scope will stay on target with or without the brake, but the dust signature and bullet strikes just aren't big enough from a 223/5.56 to be spotted from a typical 25x or less rifle scope.

Keep in mind - ALL of the above pertains ONLY to bullets with BC's around .360 or higher, and 2800-2850fps or greater. If you do something foolish like throw a 55grn FMJ out there at 1,000yrds, none of the above matters. A 55 FMJ, touting a BC around .240 and leaving home around 3200fps from a 20" barrelwill fall subsonic somewhere around 750yrds, and be an absolute mess at 1,000yrds. If you want to shoot 1,000yrds, feeding from the magazine, there really are only a couple bullets you can shoot. You'll also need a scope with at LEAST 60MOA internal, plus a 20MOA mount.

finally somebody points out the many fakes on you tube. I have used the hornady A-Max 80 grain bullet BC .473 with excellent result in a 1x7 twist. also I have a 22-250 1x8 twist also using the 80 grain bullet. have you tried the 80 grain yet?