OK, I understand 6.5 Creedmore is ballistically superior to .308 Win, but....

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RussellC

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My next Build/Buy will be a bolt action tactical type gun, that for now anyway will be used for target purposes. Most ranges near me are limited to 100 yards. One is out to 300 yards. I know some property owners where this could be longer, but not much. 300- to 500 the max as far as I can see right now. Again, the most of my plinking will be at the very close by 100 yard ranges.

I have considered building/buying in 5.56/.223, but for the money I would like something useful if I do gravitate to longer ranges. At say a 300 yard range, is there still any "superiority" to the 6.5 Creedmoor round?

I understand there is less recoil with the Creedmoor, but I dont remember .308 being anything like I remember 30 06 to be. My shoulders do not give me trouble YET, but I am 61 years old. The recoil (I only fired a few rounds through a friends .308) could be a factor, I tend to spend a while when I go to the range.

Now to demonstrate the depth of my stupidity, lets say I purchased/built a .223 bolt gun, Howa action, Tikka, whatever. I assume this small caliber gun could not be later rebarreled to a larger (.308 or 6.5 CM) later on? Obviously the barrel would have to change, and I assume the bolt as well, making it a nonsensical transformation, right?

For purposes here, let's limit the conversation to 6.5 CM or .308...I understand there are others to consider, the only exception I can think of if a caliber would be ballistically similar to .308/6.5 CM at the ranges I am stuck with but could reasonably be transformed from 5.56/.223, which I reason does not exist

OK, let her rip...

Russellc.
 
Not that I am an expert by any means, but, what I have researched leads me to conclude that at those distances, the shooter will have the most impact on performance, and the difference between those two calibers will be insignificant in comparison. Chasing 1/10 MOA, then you might see the value in 6.5...

And, even though you are excluding it, you mentioned .223. I believe a Howa would be a "mini" action, whereas .308 and 6.5 would utilize a "short" action. Again, the experts will be along shortly...
 
Thanks for your input. The Howa action is specified as "short" http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-var-hvy-blue-223-rem-fluted-6-prod84744.aspx (bear in mind my expertise here would fit in a peanut shell) but I figured it would be a futile conversion in any event.

I understand at the shorter distances ballistically the differences would be academic but recoil may be the determining factor. I queried this difference in a previous post, and as I remember was informed it was minimal, (as in differences between the two) other comparisons I've read give that a plus, that is the CM being "less" recoil. A .308 plus is barrel life, which in my case wouldnt be a biggie either.

Thank you again for your input!

Russellc
 
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Also, I am by no means stuck on Howa, it was just an example, in that regard I am wide open. Similarly, even if I chose Howa, the example I clicked on to show above is just the first one I clicked on!

While the conversion from 5.56/.223 to these larger calibers is likely
"undoable" the conversion from .308 to 6.5 CM may be more a possiblity. I understand the 6.5 CM brass can be fashioned from .308 brass, but I may be all wrong here as well?

Russellc
 
Other considerations would be whether you plan to reload or buy factory match-grade ammo, and the associated cost difference; availability of ammo or components, and which calibers the rifle(s) you are considering come chambered/can be re-barreled in.
 
Your correct inside of 500yds or so there project isnt enough difference in balistics to make a huge difference.
Recoil is noticably lighter with the CM, but in a heavy target gun recoil from either is pretty mild.

Ammo cost is higher with the CM, both reloads and factory, but not significantly so unless you looking at the very cheapest ammo.

Personally i dont care for the .308 so i would take the CM (and have), but In all honesty i think either would be totally acceptable for what u want.

If your seriously interested in having .223 and 308 bassed cartridges on the same rifle i would highly suggest a savage 10/11/etc. If you get a model thats offered in both that has detachable magazines, that would probably be the easiest option. You would also.be able to go back and forth if you were inclined.

To swap cartridges you would need

Complete bolt head (unless you want to take your stock one apart any time u switch).
Barrel
Magazine

If you want to do the work yourself the tools you would need are barrel nut wrench, reciever vice or blocks for a bench vice, and the correct headspace guage/guages.

All im all you could buy two cheap rifles for the costs of the parts to swap back and forth, BUT most of that cost is in a good quality barrel.
 
I would go with the 308. There are MOUNDS of loading data, along with plenty of good commercial loads for any imaginable purpose. That 308 is good for 1,000 yards- even more with the proper equipment. FWIW, I won't buy a caliber that doesn't pass the "Wal Mart" test. Its real simple- is the caliber available at any Wal Mart? if the answer is NO, then I call it a "fad" caliber, and stay away.
 
Thanks guys, for the information I do intend to reload, I have for all my other guns. I only have AR15 rifles right now, one a "SPR" clone that on a good day I can shoot 5 touching, just under 1"....on a good day...also have 300 BO which I am also set up to reload.

I am inclined to the 6.5 CM for the reasons Loonwulf states, and if the ability/opportunity does arise to shoot farther, I think it would be at an advantage.

Loonwulf, what are your thoughts on converting .308 to 6.5 CM? This may be academic as I think CM is the way to go. But I understand the brass is the same, well altered obviously for the CM, so the bolt would be the same? Two guns appeals more, but I think I would buy/build both a 5.56/.223 and a 6.5 Creedmore, and forget the .308.

Thanks again guys!

Russellc
 
FL-NC said:
I would go with the 308. There are MOUNDS of loading data, along with plenty of good commercial loads for any imaginable purpose. That 308 is good for 1,000 yards- even more with the proper equipment. FWIW, I won't buy a caliber that doesn't pass the "Wal Mart" test. Its real simple- is the caliber available at any Wal Mart? if the answer is NO, then I call it a "fad" caliber, and stay away.
Click to expand...

I felt like this in the beginning, when I first heard of 6.5 CM. However, I load my own and I dont think 6.5 CM is a fad, it is really catching on. This said, your reasoning is why I wonder about switching between .308 and 6.5 CM....308 is a NATO round, so there is tons of once fired military brass, which as I understand it can be turned into 6.5 CM

Thanks for your thoughts and information!

Russellc
 
FL-NC said:
FWIW, I won't buy a caliber that doesn't pass the "Wal Mart" test.
Click to expand...
I have strictly followed this for defensive and hunting calibers. However, when you are considering a strict target/long range caliber, you should not be considering shooting the quality of ammo that Wal-Mart stocks through it. YMMV.

I also feel like the 6.5CM is a "flavor of the month", but has the potential to become a mainstream caliber based on its merits. I have been considering getting a rifle for LR, and, like the OP, 6.5 and .308 are the two biggest contenders. I already have a .30/06 that I love, which is the reason I am leaning more toward the 6.5 (a while down the road).
 
LoonWulf said:
Ammo cost is higher with the CM, both reloads and factory, but not significantly so unless you looking at the very cheapest ammo.
Click to expand...

How do you figure? Shooting both, my experience is that factory ammo cost for good target loads are similar with a slight advantage to .308 if you catch FGMM or something similar on sale. .264 match bullets are almost always cheaper than equivalent .308 bullets, especially when you go to the heavier .308 bullets. Both use similar powder weights, with a 1-2 gr advantage to the 6.5, the Hornady match cases that I usually use are the same price and I get more hot loads out of the 6.5, so overall the 6.5 is consistently cheaper for me to load. The only real advantage of the .308 for shooting targets is that barrel life should be nearly twice as long, some of that cost can be offset by the cheaper 6.5 bullets, but it's still an advantage on paper, how much it matters is up to the individual.

I find my 6.5's more comfortable to shoot on long range days than my .308's, but the .308 is no shoulder smasher either. For the OPs purposes, between the 6.5 and the .308, I'd suggest the 6.5 especially if you shoot in a lot of wind. That said, if you're only shooting out to 300yds and usually closer to 100yds in little wind, a good fast twist .223 is going to be well within it's capability and much cheaper than either to shoot.
 
From a typical 7-8 lb rifle a 223 will have about 5 ft lbs recoil. A 6.5 Creedmoor about 12 ft lbs. and a 308 around 15-16 ft lbs, For comparison a 30-06 will be in the 18-20 ft lb range. I have rifles in all 4 calibers and without a doubt the lighter recoil matters. For a few shots I never notice even 300 WM recoil, but the more rounds down range the fewer shots it takes to become an issue with heavier recoiling loads. You reach a point where you can no longer concentrate and hit what you are shooting at. It could be 10-12 rounds from a magnum, or several hundred from a 223. Or somewhere in between with a 308 or 6.5.

I sent the 300 down the road and rarely shoot the 30-06 anymore. While I used to think the 308 had little recoil, compared to the 223 and 6.5 it does. The more you plan to shoot the more it matters. For you it sounds like an accurate 223 is the best answer.

I believe a Howa would be a "mini" action, whereas .308 and 6.5 would utilize a "short" action.
Click to expand...

Howa and a handful of others offer a mini action, but Howa and most everyone also offers 223 in short action rifles. It is possible to build a 223 on a short or even a long action if you want. The problem is the boltface. While a conversion is possible, you can buy a 2nd rifle in 308 or 6.5 for less than it'd cost to convert a 223 to either.

Chasing 1/10 MOA, then you might see the value in 6.5...
Click to expand...

The 6.5 isn't any more capable of .1 MOA than any other cartridge. And it ain't an easy goal with anything.

Compared to 308 the 6.5 offers very efficient bullets in the 140-147 gr. range that are still capable of good velocity and with light recoil. They are also very good in wind. In 30 caliber you have to move up to 200-215 gr bullets to get the same BC's. You can't shoot bullets that heavy in a 308 fast enough to take advantage of their BC's. You really need a 300 mag to shoot bullets that heavy and when you do recoil becomes near 3X what you get with 6.5. Most people with a 308 use 155-178 gr bullets. They are less efficient than the 140-147 gr 6.5's. But at the ranges most people shoot are a good compromise.

At 300 yards or less the only advantage 6.5 offers over 308 is about 25% less recoil than 308 and a little less wind deflection. And to be honest, that would be enough for me to choose 6.5. If you hand load the 140 gr 6.5 bullets are a lot cheaper than 200+gr .308 bullets. The 6.5 isn't any more accurate, and you have to get over 1000 yards before it drops less.
 
badkarmamib said:
Not that I am an expert by any means, but, what I have researched leads me to conclude that at those distances, the shooter will have the most impact on performance, and the difference between those two calibers will be insignificant in comparison. Chasing 1/10 MOA, then you might see the value in 6.5...

And, even though you are excluding it, you mentioned .223. I believe a Howa would be a "mini" action, whereas .308 and 6.5 would utilize a "short" action. Again, the experts will be along shortly...
Click to expand...

Hey, a couple of these Howa actions do say "mini"....never heard of that! Oh well, learn something new everyday!

Russellc
 
jmr40 said:
From a typical 7-8 lb rifle a 223 will have about 5 ft lbs recoil. A 6.5 Creedmoor about 12 ft lbs. and a 308 around 15-16 ft lbs, For comparison a 30-06 will be in the 18-20 ft lb range. I have rifles in all 4 calibers and without a doubt the lighter recoil matters. For a few shots I never notice even 300 WM recoil, but the more rounds down range the fewer shots it takes to become an issue with heavier recoiling loads. You reach a point where you can no longer concentrate and hit what you are shooting at. It could be 10-12 rounds from a magnum, or several hundred from a 223. Or somewhere in between with a 308 or 6.5.

I sent the 300 down the road and rarely shoot the 30-06 anymore. While I used to think the 308 had little recoil, compared to the 223 and 6.5 it does. The more you plan to shoot the more it matters. For you it sounds like an accurate 223 is the best answer.


Howa and a handful of others offer a mini action, but Howa and most everyone also offers 223 in short action rifles. It is possible to build a 223 on a short or even a long action if you want. The problem is the boltface. While a conversion is possible, you can buy a 2nd rifle in 308 or 6.5 for less than it'd cost to convert a 223 to either.



The 6.5 isn't any more capable of .1 MOA than any other cartridge. And it ain't an easy goal with anything.

Compared to 308 the 6.5 offers very efficient bullets in the 140-147 gr. range that are still capable of good velocity and with light recoil. They are also very good in wind. In 30 caliber you have to move up to 200-215 gr bullets to get the same BC's. You can't shoot bullets that heavy in a 308 fast enough to take advantage of their BC's. You really need a 300 mag to shoot bullets that heavy and when you do recoil becomes near 3X what you get with 6.5. Most people with a 308 use 155-178 gr bullets. They are less efficient than the 140-147 gr 6.5's. But at the ranges most people shoot are a good compromise.

At 300 yards or less the only advantage 6.5 offers over 308 is about 25% less recoil than 308 and a little less wind deflection. And to be honest, that would be enough for me to choose 6.5. If you hand load the 140 gr 6.5 bullets are a lot cheaper than 200+gr .308 bullets. The 6.5 isn't any more accurate, and you have to get over 1000 yards before it drops less.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that input! I would definitely go with a .223, (and may still just to have it) but something is itching somewhere for a larger caliber. I have bought things before, got into it more than I suspected and wish I had picked something that covered more, and this "longer" range shooting (as opposed to long ranges shooting ) could be like that. This thought rings the 6.5 CM bell!

Is 6.5 CM brass such that it can be made from .308 brass? Would they use the same bolt?

Russellc
 
Of course a .223 gun would be minimal recoil, plenty for 300 yards, and I already have lots of bullets and brass. Once proficient, then to the 6.5 creedmoor. For some reason I want that 6.5....

Russellc
 
RussellC said:
Is 6.5 CM brass such that it can be made from .308 brass? Would they use the same bolt?
Click to expand...

Sure, with some amount of work and forming you could form 6.5 CM brass from the .308 derivatives and the 22-250, but why go to all that effort when good to great CM brass is readily available from several manufacturers?

Also, I meant to mention that if you aren't shooting long distances or in high wind, there are good 123gr .264 bullets with respectable >0.5 G1 BCs available that can be loaded up or down for good ballistics, or even less recoil.
 
I've bought crazier things for the same reason. But really, I have gone into things thinking "this is as far as I will go, so this will be fine." Then when you do it, you become familir, learn more and wish you had gone ahead with more than you thought you needed.

With the .223, I am ready to go loading wise, an easy conversion. But if interest grows beyond what I expected, I will wish I did the 6.5. Anyway, I think I have decided at least between 6.5 CM and 308.....if I do go longer range, I will see advantage to 6.5. Being less recoil is a plus.

I may need to post separately, but I would like to know for sure if 6.5 CM can be made from .308, and if they share a common bolt?

Russellc
 
The 6.5CM and the 308 share the same head diameter, as do 30-06, 270, 7mm-08,260,243,358, etc. You can form a 308 to a 6.5 but it may require neck turning to uniform the cases enough to keep your rifle accurate. That out of the way, brass is available for the creedmoor so no issues. If you just want to punch paper go 223, it's a lot cheaper to shoot a lot and has a lot less recoil than any 308 based case cartridge. It SOUNDS like a creedmoor will give you the flexibility to branch out in the future though, and if you go with a Savage rifle (or any other barrel nut style action) swapping barrels within a cartridge family is really rather easy. And that also adds to flexibility down the road. If I was in your shoes I'd go with the 6.5 in a savage or ruger American and upgrade the stock if necessary. Both will shoot great and aftermarket is there for support... Just my .02, and I'm looking at the same decision process shortly...
 
Gtscotty said:
Sure, with some amount of work and forming you could form 6.5 CM brass from the .308 derivatives and the 22-250, but why go to all that effort when good to great CM brass is readily available from several manufacturers?
Click to expand...


Whoops, just saw your post regarding making 6.5 from .308, the only reason is there is a ton of once fired military .308 out there for cheap is all. I assume it is no more difficult to do this than .223 to 300 BO, perhaps I am kidding myself? Do you happen to know if they would share the same bolt?

Thanks for the info!

Russellc
 
For shooting primarily inside of 500 yards I'd just go with a .308 Win. It's easier to find components, load data, and anything else that is .308 related. Your barrel life is also longer with the .308 Win, and it is less expensive to shoot.

I have precision rifles in .308 Win and .260 Remington (very similar to the 6.5CM). My personal perception is that the .260 Remington starts to make a noticeable difference for me beyond 600 yards. I'm often shooting my .260 Remington in the 700-1,300 yard range, but we have the distances available to do that kind of shooting in this part of the country.
 
adcoch1 said:
The 6.5CM and the 308 share the same head diameter, as do 30-06, 270, 7mm-08,260,243,358, etc. You can form a 308 to a 6.5 but it may require neck turning to uniform the cases enough to keep your rifle accurate. That out of the way, brass is available for the creedmoor so no issues. If you just want to punch paper go 223, it's a lot cheaper to shoot a lot and has a lot less recoil than any 308 based case cartridge. It SOUNDS like a creedmoor will give you the flexibility to branch out in the future though, and if you go with a Savage rifle (or any other barrel nut style action) swapping barrels within a cartridge family is really rather easy. And that also adds to flexibility down the road. If I was in your shoes I'd go with the 6.5 in a savage or ruger American and upgrade the stock if necessary. Both will shoot great and aftermarket is there for support... Just my .02, and I'm looking at the same decision process shortly...
Click to expand...

This is basically how I was hoping it would break down. Thankyou again for your input! I will look at the savages, I have seen a few interesting models, that choice will raise questions for another thread.

Russellc
 
A .223 bolt gun wouldn't do for a 6.5 either. 6.5 has the same rim diameter as .308. You're right that you'd have to change the bolt and barrel with a .223.
"...308 being anything like I remember .30-06..." You comparing semi-auto or bolt actions? Makes a difference. Same felt recoil, as in none, out of a semi. About 2 ft-lbs. more out of like weight rifles and with like bullet weights out of a bolt action.
"...I want that 6.5..." "I want one" is reason enough. The brand of receiver really doesn't make much difference other than relative ease of buying one. And to some extent the ease of finding a barrel that'll fit a particular brand of action without a lot of fuss.
Knew a guy, years ago, who bought a BNIB Win M70 just for the action. I'd be thinking used, short action, hunting rifle just for the receiver and selling off the parts of it you don't want(selling the scope and stock, for example, will defer some of the build costs. Got the nice new walnut stock from the guy for $15, as I recall. Long time ago.). Isn't really the right time of year for that though. Deer rifles come cheaper right after deer season and it's too early for varmint rifles.
The "Wal-Mart test' is more about hunting cartridges, but still applies. Good name for it too. Mind you, a quick look at Walmart.com shows Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor ammo, dies and even a 2a Armament Barrel.
"...6.5CM is a "flavor of the month"..." Yep. Lotta stuff like that.
 
If you like the Savages, these are a pretty nice turnkey rifle:

http://grabagun.com/savage-89.html

The few i've seen at our local range were shooters. Still uses the barrel nut system, so barrel changes are a snap compared to anything that doesn't use a barrel nut, if that matters to you. Savage bolt heads can be easily swapped as well, so you theoretically could turn it into a .223, depending on whether the mag system worked... I don't know that I'd see the point, but it's possible. Also, the Bergara B-14 HMRs have been getting great reviews. The Ruger Precision is also a good option.
 
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