1851 Navy & beginner

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If you don't own one, your "observations" are confined to what you have read online or experienced elsewhere.
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Yep, elsewhere - gun-shows, friends guns, etc.
If you do not own a Pietta repro Colt 1851 Navy (which is what this thread is all about), why are you so sure you can fix all its supposed ills? YouTube videos? Other?
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Well, maybe because I believe that I have the needed skills to do it, have access to the needed machinery and have worked on enough guns to built my confidence.
Now you are talking apples and oranges insofar as the difference between open top Colt repros and solid top NMA repros (aka 1858 Remingtons). I have no experience with a repro Remington "1858" NMA so I cannot comment more...
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This is not a farmers market, but just an example that CNC machinery alone is not a guarantee for a trouble free assembly and an "in spec" product, simple as that.
As an owner of three Pietta factory assembled models, they are far beyond "kit" quality, sir.
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OK, that's your opinion. But let me disagree with it based on my experience - almost all of the guns I have handled needed some tuning to make them work as they should (and last). Nothing extreme, but just a simple tweaking here and there.

I don't get it, really - I have only suggested to the OP that some additional work might be required, so he can be prepared what to expect and you jump on me like I said that Piettas are nothing more that a complete POS. I actually like Pietta guns, but for what they are - cheap replicas. I had the pleasure of handling different original percussion guns, including a pristine third model Colt Dragoon and a Colt 1860 and I can tell you that Pietta must walk many miles to reach that level of manufacture, even with the shiny bluing and polyurethane varnish they are so proud of.
 
Gotta agree!! There's not a single action out there that wouldn't benefit from a good tuning. Especially open tops from Italy! I work on them almost every, single, day! (I do take a weekend day sometimes for a break)
I just had a Pietta, last week or the week before, with a short arbor. It surprised me as it was recent manufacture. So, it can (and apparently does) happen. Usually, they are in the .004"- .006" range, a little much for my specs. Between .0025"- .003" is what I like.
The action parts in Piettas still have quite a ways to go. Still in the '70s for the most part. The sharp angle cut on the top of the new hands are a problem. Bolt arms are still much too thick. The hammer roll is mounted too deep and provides little if any of a bearing action, especially since the main spring has a track in it! Lol! I have to fix this one on every new Pietta. Oh yes, the screw holes in the frame are quite rough sometimes allowing cross-threading.
The Uberti's on the other hand have the best action parts ever made but still continue with the short arbor!! Hammer rolls are positioned fine, it'd be nice if they weren't so skinny! It's obvious to me that Uberti is focused on the right things but refuses to correct the arbor situation. Piettas on the other hand are attempting to "do the right things" but fall short with the '70s type action parts.

As far as the effectiveness of the cap post, it isn't 100% but it's as close to perfect as we'll get probably with the setups we get from Italy along with the caps of today. Since the cap post is an added "device", it is usually "operator error" when it fails. The post works best when the action is cycled rather "forcefully"! It comes from the competition crowd so that stands to reason. Speed is part of the "why" it works. The combination of a spent cap in contact with a spinning cyl is why it works. Slowly pulling the hammer back is asking for trouble.
That leads us to "all the other stuff" about these revolvers. If you want trouble free shooting with a $150-$400 cap and ball revolver, good luck. An "inexpensive" revolver won't perform like a $800+ revolver without some work! Using the cap post as intended may be a problem if your particular revolver can't be cycled "forcefully". In other words, if thumbing back the hammer rapidly causes the cylinder to throw-by (miss lock-up) timing and or other problems exist which is why there is so much written about/discussed on these forums.
It's obviously fun for some of us and makes others go NUTS!! But understand, these revolvers come to us as "attractively packaged unfinished kits" (this has been the established description for sometime now so no need for asking about ones experience on assembling a true "kit" gun). For this reason, you get to spend a small amount to enter the shooting world and experience what our ancestors experienced. Even better, you have a platform that can be made to perform with the $1000.00 revolvers for about half that amount!! Be glad we get what we get from our Italian brothers!! A cheap (inexpensive) ticket to the past!!

Mike
 
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Mk VII said:
The other day I picked up a [genuine] London Navy off the auction house table and tried the action ... chalk and cheese compared to our present day reproductions. Same with the one I own, so it's not a one-off.
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For this uneducated American, could you define chalk and cheese.
 
Nice thing about these Italian revolvers (Pietta / Uberti) is there are spare parts readily available and somewhat affordable.
 
drobs said:
Nice thing about these Italian revolvers (Pietta / Uberti) is there are spare parts readily available and somewhat affordable.
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Mainly needed because of ill fitted parts during assembly. The main reason they cost what they cost.

Mike
 
45 Dragoon said:
Gotta agree!! There's not a single action out there that wouldn't benefit from a good tuning. Especially open tops from Italy! I work on them almost every, single, day! (I do take a weekend day sometimes for a break)
I just had a Pietta, last week or the week before, with a short arbor. It surprised me as it was recent manufacture. So, it can (and apparently does) happen. Usually, they are in the .004"- .006" range, a little much for my specs. Between .0025"- .003" is what I like.
The action parts in Piettas still have quite a ways to go. Still in the '70s for the most part. The sharp angle cut on the top of the new hands are a problem. Bolt arms are still much too thick. The hammer roll is mounted too deep and provides little if any of a bearing action, especially since the main spring has a track in it! Lol! I have to fix this one on every new Pietta. Oh yes, the screw holes in the frame are quite rough sometimes allowing cross-threading.
The Uberti's on the other hand have the best action parts ever made but still continue with the short arbor!! Hammer rolls are positioned fine, it'd be nice if they weren't so skinny! It's obvious to me that Uberti is focused on the right things but refuses to correct the arbor situation. Piettas on the other hand are attempting to "do the right things" but fall short with the '70s type action parts.

As far as the effectiveness of the cap post, it isn't 100% but it's as close to perfect as we'll get probably with the setups we get from Italy along with the caps of today. Since the cap post is an added "device", it is usually "operator error" when it fails. The post works best when the action is cycled rather "forcefully"! It comes from the competition crowd so that stands to reason. Speed is part of the "why" it works. The combination of a spent cap in contact with a spinning cyl is why it works. Slowly pulling the hammer back is asking for trouble.
That leads us to "all the other stuff" about these revolvers. If you want trouble free shooting with a $150-$400 cap and ball revolver, good luck. An "inexpensive" revolver won't perform like a $800+ revolver without some work! Using the cap post as intended may be a problem if your particular revolver can't be cycled "forcefully". In other words, if thumbing back the hammer rapidly causes the cylinder to throw-by (miss lock-up) timing and or other problems exist which is why there is so much written about/discussed on these forums.
It's obviously fun for some of us and makes others go NUTS!! But understand, these revolvers come to us as "attractively packaged unfinished kits" (this has been the established description for sometime now so no need for asking about ones experience on assembling a true "kit" gun). For this reason, you get to spend a small amount to enter the shooting world and experience what our ancestors experienced. Even better, you have a platform that can be made to perform with the $1000.00 revolvers for about half that amount!! Be glad we get what we get from our Italian brothers!! A cheap (inexpensive) ticket to the past!!

Mike
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Well let me say this about that, cap posts I mean. I have four Colts with cap posts and one without. I've never had a cap tween the hammer and frame with the cap post. The Walker, just this AM, being a heavy gun I lower the gun to a muzzle touching the bench position and cock the hammer, and I mean I do cock that hammer, the cylinder rotates and the spent cap exits the gun via the recoil shield cut. Every time all the time. Raise aim and fire repeat. With the lighter guns, the 1860, 1851 and 1862, they don't always exit the gun but will drag against the recoil shield, occasionally one will bind against the recoil shield to the point of a noticeable resistance to the right thumb pulling back the hammer, but the cylinder rotates and the bolt locks, and the next round fires. As noted hauling back the hammer in a forceful manner is what works, and that hardened hand, the action stop and the bolt block all make the possible, its not just the cap post.

As for that 5th Colt. A $99.00 Traditions from the early 90's (Pietta). It sucks caps, so I give it a little flip to the left as part of using the recoil to set up the hammer cock. Works...................................... most of the time.

BTW, Mike, the 1860 will put 48 shots on target without the use of lube or a wad.(30 grain 3f,round ball) The cylinder, however was getting a mite hard to rotate by the 48th. ( the arbor was lubed with Mobile 1 at the start) I'm not making a habit of this I just wanted to see how far the Colt action would go with out disassembly or lubing. I might give that a go with the Walker also. The Walker is, the rest aren't, but will be packed Mobile1.
 
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45 Dragoon, a hypothetical question: if, instead of cap post, the notch in the hammer face is welded and then a small hole is drilled that will allow to use the safety pins - I imagine just a slightly bigger hole in diameter (like +0.003") will be sufficient. Whether this can be a solution for the cap sucking problem, or the caps would wedge themselves into the hole too?
 
Because the hammer arcs a hole wouldn't work I'd think. Not sure how much play there is either in the hammer.
 
Well, the originals had a slot that was just wide enough for the safety pin. The Italian copies are much wider and that is part of the problem we have. A skinny slot would make it pretty much impossible to "fire form" the caps of today into the slot itself (like they do now).
A solid faced hammer alone does nothing for the cap that is blown off the nipple. Without a cap post to block the loose cap, there is a good probability of it falling into the action at some point.

Someone made an "anti-blowback" nipple that worked well. In fact, it worked perfectly and they found that without some blowback, the caps were very hard to remove for reloading. They ultimately had to engineer a by-pass to help facilitate the cap removal. So, what to do?!!

As many folks will attest, the cap post (rake) seems to be the best all around answer for "our" (modern) problem . . . . and that is ok. We don't have perfect open top copies and Caps that are like the originals so, we deal with the problems that we have.


Oh yes!!! Thanks whughett!!!

Mike
 
Hello all, long time no see.
News?
All the screwdrivers came. I spent a huge amount of money, but I have the best screwdrivers in the world, literally. First I got the BOSCH set, everyone says that they're not of great quality, but they seem excellent to me, no complaints whatsoever. Then came the GRACE USA set, I was disappointed the first moment I saw and touched them, but when I started unscrewing the screws on my Pietta with them, I was thrilled how great they are, excellent screwdrivers, they fit perfectly. Then came the really expensive PB SWISS TOOLS set. Made in Switzerland - I think that says it all. Top quality which should last a lifetime. I doubt that anyone in a hundred miles radius from me has screwdrivers of such quality. And finally today the BROWNELLS came. Just "wow" - that's all I can say for Brownells, I don't think that ever was or will be finer screwdrivers. I'm now set for life, I have much more screwdrivers than I need. It's very easy working with them, and no marks on the screws. I should have been a gunsmith.
The blackpowder came at the store in my city exactly a month ago. I still can't pick it up because I still didn't get the written permission from the police. They're surely takin' their time. The neighbours told me 10 days ago how a police officer in civilian clothes made inquiries about me. He told everyone that I bought "a pistol". A device measuring how much pissed-off a person is - would explode if I connected to it 10 days ago. I went to file a complaint, but the boss of that police department is on a vacation this whole month, and I didn't want to talk to lower clerks.
 
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I understand your enthusiasm for screwdrivers. When I was three years old I picked up one of my father's screwdrivers and loosened every screw on every kitchen cabinet I could reach. My mother enjoyed telling the story after I was grown up; after all her cabinet doors came off in her hand she could not decide who she was madder at-me for doing it, or Dad for leaving his tools out! :evil:

Good luck on proving yourself innocent. Seriously.
 
BCRider said:
No one got to this one yet? It's like we say "apples and oranges". Or perhaps a little more of a point about similar things not being all that similar in practice.
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Chalk and cheese are two substances that both begin with 'ch', but don't have much else in common.
 
Good tools are a joy to own and use. So I can feel your happiness from here :D

J-Bar, way back when I was a kid my dad built up some forms for foundations of a building on some property he had. He wisely used double headed nails to make the job of stripping them easier. In a fit of wanting to help good ol' Pa I went around with one of his hammers and pounded in every nail I could find until it was flush. He saw I was doing this but was torn between stopping me and knowing that I was so focused that I'd be out of his hair for hours to come. He often told the story of how long it took to strip the forms due to that misguided decision. I was so young that I only barely recall the whole thing.... But apparently it was great fun ! ! ! ! :D
 
1861 said:
Hello all, long time no see.
News?
The blackpowder came at the store in my city exactly a month ago. I still can't pick it up because I still didn't get the written permission from the police. They're surely takin' their time. The neighbours told me 10 days ago how a police officer in civilian clothes made inquiries about me. He told everyone that I bought "a pistol". A device measuring how much pissed-off a person is - would explode if I connected to it 10 days ago. I went to file a complaint, but the boss of that police department is on a vacation this whole month, and I didn't want to talk to lower clerks.
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God I love America, I can certainly understand the mass migration here. ;)
 
For punching out the wedge, I want to have a solid base, which will give the wedge a space to move and also help to keep revolver from moving when I use a mallet. I came up with this:
1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg
 
1861 said:
For punching out the wedge, I want to have a solid base, which will give the wedge a space to move and also help to keep revolver from moving when I use a mallet. I came up with this:.... (pictures)
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The wedge is supposed to be set with a firm thumb pressure and then at most a LIGHT tap from something to the left side of the wedge. To release it you only need to tap about the same firmness on the end that sticks out on the right hand side of the gun. And this is usually easily done while the gun is in your other hand both for setting and loosening.

The wedge should fit quite loosely up to where it starts to lock the arbor to the barrel. And that occurs over a pretty small amount of movement. Is this the case with your revolver? Or are you finding that the wedge is binding up well before the end starts to stick out from the right hand side?

A mallet to knock out the wedge? I suppose. But for all my Colt pattern wedged barrel guns I can easily use the soft end of a screwdriver while holding it with about three fingertips. And that means not all that hard a tap. And in fact in the field I'll knock it loose and then reset it with the piece of oak I use to push the caps home firmly. That bit of oak is around 2cm x 3cm x 10cm. So it's not all that heavy. But it's enough to do the job needed for both setting and bumping loose the wedge. So when I see that you need a mallet I wonder if you're setting it too hard or if there's a fitment issue with the wedge.
 
BC, everything is fine with my revolver, we discussed the wedge releasing on pages 17 and 18, and it seems (nor just from this forum) that almost everyone uses a mallet, I don't think it's a common thing to be able to push out the wedge with just a thumb.
A friend made that piece of wood for me, very hard and thick and it will never bend, I just had to pay a few bucks for the self-adhesive green felt, for me that's incomparably nicer solution than the Bench block ($30 + shipping for that piece of plastic, yeah right, I can buy state-of-the-art screwdrivers for that much).
 
All four of my Colts are professionally set up and all four require a tap from a light hammer to dislodge. In fact I use an intentional right smart tap the propels the wedge by inertia thru. The gun is cradled in my left palm for this.
 
1861;

Your padded support should work nicely. And I think it fits your personality...specific tools for a specific task!! ;)

A properly fitted wedge should not require a mallet, but on the Italian open top reproductions properly fitted wedges are a rarity. I would much rather have a wedge that is too tight than too loose because I do not want the wedge to move during shooting. It is easy to make mistakes when fitting wedges, and that is best left to a gunsmith that knows what he is doing. I speak from unfortunate experience...I tried fitting a couple of wedges and did not do a good job. Now I too use a mallet to seat AND remove the wedges from my 1851s. But they work and do not loosen during competitive shooting matches, so I accept the imperfection.
 
1861 said:
BC, everything is fine with my revolver, we discussed the wedge releasing on pages 17 and 18, and it seems (nor just from this forum) that almost everyone uses a mallet, I don't think it's a common thing to be able to push out the wedge with just a thumb.
A friend made that piece of wood for me, very hard and thick and it will never bend, I just had to pay a few bucks for the self-adhesive green felt, for me that's incomparably nicer solution than the Bench block ($30 + shipping for that piece of plastic, yeah right, I can buy state-of-the-art screwdrivers for that much).
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The price is why I don't own either.
 
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