Badge of Rank?

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These days, it's a lot of, "whatever your unit has available, and whatever your armorer feels like issuing."

On my last deployment, they issued us hammered A-2s and M-9s. The reasong was, we were support troops on the tail end of the war, and they didn't awant us to get the new toys all dinged up. It was a good call, because we were able to leave our rifles in our secured office, and just carry pistols. As for status, we issued them to E-4s who had never fired a pistol before. I had to give basic instruction to a lot of them before they went to qualify.
 
Well most of these stories and anecdotes are from past wars.

I have read of very, very few modern uses of the M9 in actual battles where they were fired.
 
Cooldill said:
Well most of these stories and anecdotes are from past wars.

I have read of very, very few modern uses of the M9 in actual battles where they were fired.
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Ive got two, though they are second hand from one of the guys I work with who just got out.
During his first deployment, a Striker crew chief emptied his M9 at a charging hostile carrying a satchel charge from about 30yds out. The fellow didn't even break stride until the supporting infantry, including my buddy, joined in, putting him down within spitting distance of the vehicle. The explosive did not detonate. They were unable to determine if the attacker was hit by any pistol rounds, but four intact 9mm FMJs were recovered- from the plastique in the charge!
During his last deployment, some of the men in his unit were playing Call of Duty in their FOB, when a recently acquired local interpreter calmly walked in, grabbed a loaded M9 from a shoulder holster hanging on the back of a chair, yelled "Allah ackbar!"- and fatally shot himself in the abdomen. He bled out on the floor, but thankfully none of our guys were injured.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
Ive got two, though they are second hand from one of the guys I work with who just got out.
During his first deployment, a Striker crew chief emptied his M9 at a charging hostile carrying a satchel charge from about 30yds out. The fellow didn't even break stride until the supporting infantry, including my buddy, joined in, putting him down within spitting distance of the vehicle. The explosive did not detonate. They were unable to determine if the attacker was hit by any pistol rounds, but four intact 9mm FMJs were recovered- from the plastique in the charge!
During his last deployment, some of the men in his unit were playing Call of Duty in their FOB, when a recently acquired local interpreter calmly walked in, grabbed a loaded M9 from a shoulder holster hanging on the back of a chair, yelled "Allah ackbar!"- and fatally shot himself in the abdomen. He bled out on the floor, but thankfully none of our guys were injured.
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I see. Not surprising the 9mm did little to stop the threat.

I highly doubt any intervention would have been needed had he been armed with an M1911A1.
 
I've heard it goes back to WWI when officers were only issued pistols. They blew a whistle to signal a charge, and the purpose of the pistol was partly to shoot anyone who didn't go over the edge, or anyone who tried to lag behind or go back. I don't know how often this happened, but I've always been curious.
 
grampajack said:
I've heard it goes back to WWI when officers were only issued pistols. They blew a whistle to signal a charge, and the purpose of the pistol was partly to shoot anyone who didn't go over the edge, or anyone who tried to lag behind or go back. I don't know how often this happened, but I've always been curious.
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I think this was pretty common in the Russian and Ottoman armies, but I don't know of any western powers that actually practiced it.
 
In WW1 the guys doing night time scouting in no man's land and guys going on a trench raid were often issued handguns for the mission, but they turned them in when done.
The handgun as a badge of rank was typical in European armies. Earlier in history the sword had this role.
 
I have read, but can not cite, that General Pershing was of the opinion that every American Fighting man in his command that wanted a hand gun should have one. That was WWI and that doesn't sound very "Badgy".

Certainly the Germans were and are Europeans and in WWII EVERY German Paratrooper jumped with a pistol to allow them the opertunity to fight their way to the weapons packs that had their rifles as well as crew served guns in them. Every German squad had its crew served MG and a two man crew that carried......wait for it.....pistols. 81mm Mortar crews had at least two men issued badges of rank to show they ranked right up their with mules and pack horses I guess totting a base plate or tube, or bipod. At least half of armored vehicle crews were issued only pistols.

A USAF officer friend that was involved in the upgrading of small arms training for zoomies in theater proudly told me their work had been a success because a female bus driver in theater, at a bus stop, from her driver's seat nailed Hadji with her Beretta four for four in just over a second and he was DRT on the first step. Man imagine getting to paradise and they guys finding out you got martyred by a E-3 GURL, with a badge of rank!!!

Vern,

Thank you for that image. Snakes! Why did it have to be snakes.... the size of highway culverts?

-kBob
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
I think this was pretty common in the Russian and Ottoman armies, but I don't know of any western powers that actually practiced it.
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I'm not the biggest history buff, but I like watching Russian war movies (they are GREAT by the way!), and they commonly depict Russian officers shooting their own men. There's a scene in Stalingrad where they shoot a bunch of men for merely taking cover.

I also remember seeing in a documentary that during the Russian invasion of Finland the KGB followed behind the infantry to shoot whoever took cover or turned back.
 
grampajack said:
I also remember seeing in a documentary that during the Russian invasion of Finland the KGB followed behind the infantry to shoot whoever took cover or turned back.
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The term is 'zampolit' They were NKVD (KGB is post war) officers who were assigned to staff postions in a unit to ensure military subservience to the State. The lower ranking ones had the duty you described, higher ranking ones dispatched commanders who failed. Rafe Fiennes plays one in 'Enemy at the Gates', Tim Curry plays one in "the Hunt for Red October"
 
"Green tabbers" killed a hefty number of Russian troops during WWII. NKVD assigned to the Army openly wore a green backed insignia as a badge of rank in case someone failed to notice their side arms.....

Sorry had to do that......

A German I knew that spent many years in a Soviet Prison camp after Stalingrad saw a Green Tab wearing Soviet officer use his pistol twice......on two of the three German Prisoners kneeling next to him along a ditch on a dirt road in a Russian wood. The third broke and ran and took a burst from a PPSh-41. "Papa" said that over the next seven plus years he often thought those three got the easier deal.......but that changed once he was repatriated and re united with his wife and they started having kids and he as glad he had not been shot.

Oh, and after the Soviet Officer got the dozen skilled prisoners he had been instructed to find, the remaining 200 or so Germans were shot as well.

-kBob
 
grampajack said:
I've heard it goes back to WWI when officers were only issued pistols. They blew a whistle to signal a charge, and the purpose of the pistol was partly to shoot anyone who didn't go over the edge, or anyone who tried to lag behind or go back. I don't know how often this happened, but I've always been curious.
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General Pershing ordered that EVERY American Infantryman be issued a .45 -- because they were so successful in close-in fighting in trenches. That's how then-corporal Alvin York happened to have an M1911 when a squad of Germans charged him while he was reloading his rifle.
 
Vern Humphrey said:
General Pershing ordered that EVERY American Infantryman be issued a .45 -- because they were so successful in close-in fighting in trenches. That's how then-corporal Alvin York happened to have an M1911 when a squad of Germans charged him while he was reloading his rifle.
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I'm very skeptical that every infantryman was issued a 1911, or even the majority of them for that matter. Even if that's true, it only accounts for the American army. Also, my point was that officers were issued pistols in place of rifles, and maybe that's how pistols became associated with officers in the US military.
 
grampajack said:
I'm very skeptical that every infantryman was issued a 1911, or even the majority of them for that matter. Even if that's true, it only accounts for the American army. Also, my point was that officers were issued pistols in place of rifles, and maybe that's how pistols became associated with officers in the US military.
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Then how do you explain the M1917 revolvers? Both Colt and Smith and Wesson manufactured them as a supplement to the M1911.

Pistols were associated with CAVALRY -- every cavalryman had at least two in the old days, when the caracole was a standard tactic. Cavalry would gallop up to massed pikemen and fire at them at close range, then gallop away.

The US Army originally did not have much in the way of cavalry -- and what we had were dragoons (mounted infantry.)
when we went to war with Mexico in 1846, the Texas Rangers became part of the Army of Anticipation, and they demanded revolvers -- having used Colt Pattersons against the Comanche with great effectiveness. Since Colt was out of business, a Ranger captain, Samuel Walker, was sent east to negotiate the production of revolvers. The resulting "Walker" Colt was the most powerful production revolver up until the .44 Magnum was developed about 110 years later.

From then on, US Cavalry was armed with pistols -- and to this day the Armor Branch has Functional Proponency for handguns in the US Army.
 
Vern Humphrey said:
General Pershing ordered that EVERY American Infantryman be issued a .45 -- because they were so successful in close-in fighting in trenches. That's how then-corporal Alvin York happened to have an M1911 when a squad of Germans charged him while he was reloading his rifle.
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Transitional period, the last Cavalry pistol charge happened under Pershing in Mexico with 1911s.

Besides, the badge of rank thing was never really an American thing. With us it has really been your weapon goes with your job position.
 
I was a 95B and of course carried a 1911 when on duty, until I was sent to Germany in 1973 and assigned to a Hawk Missile unit (ADA). In my battery we had a 10 man MP detachment (1 E6, 1 E5 (me) & 8 enlisted) and we shared one 1911. Whoever was assigned to the front gate of the TAC site wore the pistol anyone else carried an M16. Bader Meinhof was a real threat in those days. When the Battery took their yearly trip to the field the Battery Commander took the 1911 as it was his in the TO&E. A Captain, 3 Lieutenants and 2 Warrants assigned and 1 .45 cal. Pistol. Badge of Rank.... Yeah.
This was typical of non-front line combat and non-combat units when I was in 1972 to 1978.
 
JohnBiltz said:
Transitional period, the last Cavalry pistol charge happened under Pershing in Mexico with 1911s.
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The last cavalry charge was the charge of elements of the 26th Cavalry in the Philippines on January 15th. 1942

JohnBiltz said:
Besides, the badge of rank thing was never really an American thing. With us it has really been your weapon goes with your job position.
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That is correct -- the American Army issues weapons to be used, not to be admired.
 
NMPOPS said:
I was a 95B and of course carried a 1911 when on duty, until I was sent to Germany in 1973 and assigned to a Hawk Missile unit (ADA). In my battery we had a 10 man MP detachment (1 E6, 1 E5 (me) & 8 enlisted) and we shared one 1911. Whoever was assigned to the front gate of the TAC site wore the pistol anyone else carried an M16. Bader Meinhof was a real threat in those days. When the Battery took their yearly trip to the field the Battery Commander took the 1911 as it was his in the TO&E. A Captain, 3 Lieutenants and 2 Warrants assigned and 1 .45 cal. Pistol. Badge of Rank.... Yeah.
This was typical of non-front line combat and non-combat units when I was in 1972 to 1978.
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I was totally unaware of the Bader Meinhof group until I saw that movie about them. I guess they were like Germany's own Weather Underground.
 
When I was in the army (1966 - 1986) I served in support units for the most part. Nobody really knew who was supposed to be issued a 1911 according to the MTO&E, most times the officers were the ones who carried them. As a military policeman I was issued a 1911 and an M16. Even the guys assigned as an M60 gunner were also stuck with an M16. When I was the Division Artillery S2 Sergeant (Intel and physical security) I was issued an M16. Again we didn't have access to the MTO&E to know who was supposed to be armed with a pistol, but all the officers had them.
 
I've never heard of anyone referring to ALL pistols as merely badges of rank, even nowadays. Nobody who knew what he was talking about would do that. I have heard certain pistols, or types of pistols, referred to as such. The 7mm Nambu was the premier example of this, and so were the 25 caliber pistols sometimes carried by European or Japanese high-ranking officers. In the German army, in particular, even officers of the highest rank, or the most rear-area staff position, carried pistols.

I wonder if the real front-line Wehrmacht generals bothered with that? I am trying to think if I have ever seen a picture of Rommel, or Guderian, or Model carrying a pistol.
 
sorry - TRIPLE post - we need some kind of delete or cancel button around here. If there already is one, please let me know.
 
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