All you experts, help me choose a handgun... :-)

[trooper]

Guys,

I'll finally be joining the ranks... next month I'll have completed the compulsory one-year waiting period and will be elegible for a firearms permit.

I herewith request all your expertise to help me choose my first privately owned handgun

I will most likely never ever carry it. It will be purely a range/home-defense gun so weight and concealability don't really matter. Accuracy, however, is an issue (at least to some extent) as I occasionally shoot service pistol bullseye competitions and might get into PPC at some point in the future.

So... I've been thinking about this subject for quite a while (obviously ) and I came up with some ideas...

I might go for a 9mm DA/SA auto, mostly because of cheap practice ammo.

CZ 75: shot it a lot, generally liked it, dead accurate IMO.
USP: shot it briefly, seemed to be quite nice.

I also considered a Glock as I don't really mind the trigger but I'm a bit afraid I might get used to the weird grip angle SIGs are really nice but out of my price range unless I find a really good deal.

I'm also considering a 1911 in .45 ACP, something simple like a plain-jane milspec. I haven't shot one very often but it just feels right in my hand and points great. BTW what 25m accuracy could I expect from a typical entry-level 1911?

And lately I've really been thinking about a S&W 586 or 686... the simplicity and accuracy appeal to me, and they do have a certain coolness factor... oh, and few things feel more macho than shooting serious magnum loads

Duh, now I've mentioned pretty much all major handgun types I suppose I really need professional help...

My problem is that I have to specify the exact caliber on the application form. Therefore I can't just get my permit and look out for the sweetest deal that happens to come my way.

Ya gotta help me decide!! Please post all the pros and cons you can find, as well as your personal opinion, even if it just amounts to "You have no choice but to buy a Glock."

Fire away!!


Thanks in advance,

Trooper

 

[ReadyontheRight]

First Handgun?

In Germany?

Shooting service pistol bullseye?

Why...a 1911, of course!

Edited to add that ROTR ain't no expert I just know what I like. I think you'll be happy with mil-spec 1911 accuracy, but you will probably get better accuracy for less out of a wheelgun like a Ruger GP100. With a 1911, you can always upgrade the accuracy as you go -- new barrel, frame to slide fit, trigger job, barrel bushing, etc.

Also -- I'm personally pretty keen on the Dan Wesson Patriots -- worth checking out -- good fit/finish and match barrel and bushing for less than other brands.

 

[armoredman]

CZ. Everything you need will be close, and the CZ is an excellent pistol, accurate and fun.
Can you get a carry permit, or do you have to be the Chancellor's brother?

 

[Josey]

A Colt WWII repro! I honestly suggest a BHP in 9MM as a second caliber.

 

[45R]

Any variety of Sig Sauer will serve you well.

If you dont like Sigs then I would go with the CZ

 

[trooper]

Wow, THAT was fast

Right now I'm only talking about my first handgun cos you can only buy one every six months.

No carry permit in sight (and I'm not Gerhard Schroeder's bro either ) but I plan to get in LE work this fall again which means that I can carry my issued piece off-duty too.


Regards,

Trooper

 

[trooper]

If you dont like Sigs then I would go with the CZ

I like SIGs plenty, in fact I shot and carried a P 225 throughout my whole career. Sad thing is, right now they're outside my financial range unless I find a good police trade-in.

I haven't had a chance to shoot a BHP yet but I'll try it out.


Regards,

Trooper

 

[Sarge111]

I'll second .45R..

on all counts.

 

[schromf]

rod and gun club?

Do you have a local Rod and Gun Club? In the past there were some very good opportunities to purchase local handguns through these. There were models available you never saw in Conus, and versions that were scarce.

I would look and see if you can find a Sig P210 or maybe a Walther like a
P-88 would both be good choices.

I would first find the Rod and Gun and talk to some people there, find out the rules for purchase and importing back into the US, and what is available. Then repost with what is available through that outlet, you are probably looking at a one time shot at bringing in something nice, and you can always find a 1911 once you are Conus agian.

 

[trooper]

Do you have a local Rod and Gun Club?

Nope.

Then repost with what is available through that outlet, you are probably looking at a one time shot at bringing in something nice, and you can always find a 1911 once you are Conus agian.

I probably won't be "back" in the US anytime soon (unless for vacation)... I'm not an Army guy stationed overseas, just a regular German national who happens to like things that go BOOM and knows a word or two in English...


Regards,

Trooper

 

[VaughnT]

Browning High Power: Beautiful weapon. Reliable. Cheap ammo. Accurate. Fantastic ergonomics. Cheap ammo!! This is one great pistol and I don't think you could go wrong with it as an initial venture into handgun ownership. I just bought one for myself and can't wait to put a few thousand rounds downrange.

S&W 686: Beautiful revolver. Excellent ergonomics. Accurate. Cheap to shoot with .38spl loads. Durable as the day is long. I carried a 686 for four years on the job and was thoroughly amazed at what it put up with in terms of use and abuse. Undeniably the premier combat revolver, I am in love and will be adding one to my personal inventory just as soon as I find one on the market that I like.

Colt 1911: Beautiful pistol. Accurate to a fault. Grandfather of modern Bullseye competition pistols. Reliable for defense. Perfect handling characteristics. I carry one of these ladies every day, now. I would stick with Colt as I honestly believe they are currently turning out the best product on the market. A milspec might not be as accurate as you like for bullseye, but you can customize it til your heart's content.

None of the above would be a bad choice.

 

[Black Majik]

I'm gonna 2nd and 3rd all these fine gentlemen and go for the Colt 1911.

It'll definitely hold you over for the 6 months til your next gun and even longer!

 

[schromf]

cartridge availability

Are you limited to guns that aren't military caliber? I know some countries in Europe have that restriction. Hence the 9 X 21 instead of the 9 X 19. How hard and expensive is it to get ammo there, like 45 ACP? All valid questions before you buy.

 

[Ala Dan]

Check out CDNN investment's; sometimes you can pick
up on a really good deal on police trade-in's. Recently,
I think they had either the full size .45 cal SIG P220
or the P226 in 9m/m (can't remember which?) for right
around $479.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[Majic]

I agree with checking you ammo availability. That would have the most pronoun affect on your choices. Nothings worst than having a nice handgun and no ammo for it.

 

[makarov]

Not sure on the rules for PPC, but if you really are intending to shoot bullseye, buy a quality 1911 that can be accurized later. Colt Gold Cup, Dan Wesson Patriot, Kimber Series I, Springfield Armory might all be decent suggestions. If you want a quality range gun in 9mm you were right on with the CZ. You might look at the 85 Combat. I have one and the trigger is a little nicer, plus it has adjustable sights. If you want a .45 check out the CZ-97 (don't know why you couldn't use it for bullseye too, but I don't know the rules of that game very well.)

 

[trooper]

Ammo is not a problem at all, you can get all major calibers and brands over here. Prices are a few bucks over the US level. We're not limited to non-military calibers, either.

For practical reasons I've limited myself to the following: 9x19, .45 ACP or .357 Mag/.38 special. The more exotic calibers like 10mm tend to be rather expensive over here, too.

Unfortunately CDNN and other American sources are not really an option because it is quite a hassle to get a gun imported from overseas and registered in Germany. But thanks for the advice anyway

BTW the rules of my association say that you can use any handgun (and many of its clones) for service pistol/revolver bullseye that has been issued as a service weapon somewhere sometime, so all of your suggestions qualify.

I noticed that there are quite a few BHP's floating around in my price range but I'll have to shoot one first before I could think about buying one. And I also found a nice bunch of SA milspecs for a very reasonable price... argh, all those decisions...


Regards,

Trooper

 

[Majic]

Decisions, decisions.......if you are more game oriented then the hi-cap 9mm or .45acp would fit the bill. Otherwise the .357mag revolver would be the most versatile allowing 2 different power levels for shooting.
I'm more of a revolver shooter and say a 4" M686/586 can fill all the roles, assuming the games over there have a revolver class. If you don't plan on shooting a lot of the hot .357mag ammo, then the M66/19 would be ideal. I think they balance better than the M686. Or if your hands are large enough and the price isn't prohibitive the N-framed M27 or M28 in a 5" barrel would be even better.

 

[Trisha]

I second VaughnT's post!

If Browning High Powers are plentiful, then be sure to check several - too many people absolutely love them!

Personally, I'd go with a new Colt (if I was going to go out and buy a new pistol today), and go for as nice a one as I could possibly afford!

I have to keep reminding myself we're talking about your first - so I'd get the romance off on the best possible start!

But before anybody thinks about kicking me for not turning the spotlight on a superb S&W 686, or (pant, pant) a minty Colt Python, unless we're going to start a common financial fund for trooper, the 1911's the best of all possible worlds.

Just be sure to get the 686 or the Python second, OK?



Trisha

 

[Majic]

Hey now, to honor his name I think if he shows up at the range with a 4" nickeled Trooper MkIII he can hold his own, look good, and still have a few coins left in his pockets.

 

[dairycreek]

First pistol?

I would sure urge you to consider a CZ P-01! In my experience it has been both accurate and reliable. I assume the 9mm ammo is both cheap and plentiful. For a first gun (or any gun for that matter) I think you would find it an excellent choice. No matter what you choose - Good shooting

 

[Sean Smith]

At least over here, the pre-eminent centerfire bullseye pistol is the 1911 by a vast margin. Bear in mind, though, that most 1911s used for serious bullseye competition are modified or custom-built guns, and many bullseye competitions here require that you use a .45 caliber.

If you are interested in affordable accuracy, new 01991 series Colts have proven to be VERY accurate. I think they are worth the mark-up over the Springfield Armory guns (at least over here, where they are about $100 or so more). A Colt Gold Cup would be even better for bullseye use, but those are nearly $1,000, though you may be able to find a used one for less.

As for revolvers, a good Python can't be beat, but they tend to be expensive. Almost any S&W .357 revolver is a good idea... 686, 586, 66, 19, 27, etc.

One thing to consider is that hardly anybody does a good Python action tune over here, so I can only imagine that it would be even harder to find somebody to do one in Germany.

A CZ-75B or variant is also an extremely good choice, I loved mine.

 

[schromf]

Sean's advice is sound. Another option I have heard good things about is Peters Stahl, these are German made so they might be reasonable priced for you. The Trophy Master in 45 ACP looks paticularly interesting to my eye.

 

[T.Stahl]

Guns I'd suggest:

A 9x19, there's nothing you'd gain by getting a .45Auto. Look at the various German shooting records and decide for yourself whether that larger hole truely gets you another ring. It doesn't. For self-defense, well, that's up to you. Do you trust in "impulse delivered into the target" or "high speed ensuring reliable expansion of the bullet"? I prefer the 9mm, "just don't lead them as much".

HK USP Expert (or Elite if you don't mind its looks):
- A high quality handgun, Made in Germany.
- The grip is slip-proof, it bites into your hands and it won't shift during firing, no grip tape, Hogue grip or A-Grip needed. Bore axis is a bit high over your wrist, more muzzle flip.
- Factory sights are more than ok for target shooting, consider adjustable night-sights for HD.
- High capacity, though mags are quite expensive (compared to Glock).
- Accurate, I'd probably shoot better with my brother's Expert than with my own Glock 17L.
- Price is still acceptable, last time I checked the local dealer sold them for 1090€.

Glock 17L (or 34 if you ever consider IPSC production class(?) ):
- Durable, will last forever and three days.
- The grip angle is just right. Makes pointing the gun much faster and easier for me. Also lowers the Bore axis relative to your wrist, smaller lever for the recoil, less muzzle flip.
- The trigger is, uuh, gewöhnungsbedürftig, but a few weeks of dry-firing in front of the TV can cope with that.
- Factory adjustable sights are so-so. I'm still considering adjustable Meprolights for target shooting and HD.
- Mags and other accessories are downright cheap.
- Accurate enough, my best score for a Rundenwettkampf was 370 (180+190)
- They are cheap. The list-price in that large green catalogue is 719€ for the G34, smaller dealers should sell them for ~675. Just imagine all the ammo you could buy for the price difference!

CZ 75 Sport II (or CZ 75 1500):
- All steel, heavy, good for target shooting.
- Hogue rubber grip is standard.
- Tests say they are highly accurate.
- They cost about as much as a USP Expert.
- The Cadet .22lr kit costs less than 300€.

SIG 210-5 Long Slide Heavy Frame:
- Just joking.


Guns I wouldn't consider:

- 1911s in 9mm. The 1911 was designed for a much larger catridge. Redesigning them for a 9mm will not improve their reliability.
- Guns ala Sig Sauer 226 X-Zone with an additional frame- or barrel-mounted weight that hinders field-stripping, just because it's inconvenient and an inferior solution.
- Stainless steel. Anti-glare black is the way to go.

 

[GunWares]

I'll finally be joining the ranks... next month I'll have completed the compulsory one-year waiting period and will be elegible for a firearms permit.

Just curious, what is the rationale for making you wait one year? Is it to reduce "crimes of passion" by imposing a long "cooling off" period?

As for a gun recommendation, 1911 or BHP... there can be only two.