You can't pay attention to that, you have to eyeball the results and adjust accordingly.
Let's talk about crimping the autoloader 9mm
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rfwobbly
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With all due respect, brother, I don't think you have enough data to make that statement. Read on...
To start with, 9mm ammo is not infallible. Any cartridge can be mangled by improper feeding. However, several cartridge issues can also cause this result: 1) incorrect neck tension, 2) not seating the bullet deep enough, 3) too much taper crimp.
• If your Expander is opening the case mouth ID too much, then there will not be enough neck tension. The case ID should be approximately 0.002" smaller than the jacketed bullet diameter.
• Independent testing has proved to me that the 9mm bullet likes to be seated a minimum of 0.20" into the case. Holding force is increased by an enlarged case neck engagement area, mathematically described by the bullet diameter X insertion depth. A 115gr bullet is shorter than 124 or 147gr, therefore a shorter OAL is mandated with 115gr to gain the same insertion depth.
• Too much taper crimp buckles the case and the case neck tension will actually relax after this. So more is not always the best answer.
Hope this helps.
LiveLife
Member
rfwobbly made some excellent points which I agree with fully and have posted the same for years to increase neck tension which resists bullet setback:
Case wall gets thicker as you move from case mouth towards case base and deeper seated bullets, especially with shorter base 9mm bullets, benefit from increased neck tension which resist bullet setback and produce more efficient powder burn that results in more consistent chamber pressures.
In a recent thread, this was illustrated with 100 gr RNFP bullet with shorter bullet base - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/100-gr-bullet-for-9mm-luger.828393/#post-10680353
As shown below, seating to 1.090" would produce less neck tension than 1.050" or even deeper 1.030".
As I mentioned in my post #9, not all 9mm bullets are sized .355" and if you are experiencing neck tension issue, you can benefit from using slightly larger sized bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ping-the-autoloader-9mm.829171/#post-10694224
Speer Gold Dot and TMJ thick plated bullets are highly regarded by many reloaders and guess what? They are sized slightly larger at .3555". Many match shooters consider Hornady HAP one of more accurate bullets and guess what? 125 gr HAP is sized even larger at .356".
If you are experiencing neck tension issue and significant bullet setback, I would first make sure my resizing die was adjusted properly to full-length resize the brass/minimally flare the case mouth/avoid too much taper crimp but if these steps won't resolve the neck tension issue, I would consider using slightly larger sized bullets.
Below is close up picture of RMR 124 gr FMJ sized .3555" loaded to 1.130" with .378" taper crimp using once-fired Blazer brass and Lee dies seated/crimped in same step. As you can tell, there is pronounced even bulge around the case neck at bullet base indicating good neck tension. I experience essentially no bullet setback when finished rounds are chambered from the magazine - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/mixed-brass-effects-oal.824238/page-2#post-10605996
And while I am a fan of Lee dies, I do not use the FCD for 9mm loads.
- Resize brass fully
- Minimally flare the case mouth to just set the bullet base inside
- Use minimal amount of taper crimp to not reduce bullet diameter
Case wall gets thicker as you move from case mouth towards case base and deeper seated bullets, especially with shorter base 9mm bullets, benefit from increased neck tension which resist bullet setback and produce more efficient powder burn that results in more consistent chamber pressures.
In a recent thread, this was illustrated with 100 gr RNFP bullet with shorter bullet base - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/100-gr-bullet-for-9mm-luger.828393/#post-10680353
As shown below, seating to 1.090" would produce less neck tension than 1.050" or even deeper 1.030".
Well, welcome to THR.
As I mentioned in my post #9, not all 9mm bullets are sized .355" and if you are experiencing neck tension issue, you can benefit from using slightly larger sized bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ping-the-autoloader-9mm.829171/#post-10694224
Speer Gold Dot and TMJ thick plated bullets are highly regarded by many reloaders and guess what? They are sized slightly larger at .3555". Many match shooters consider Hornady HAP one of more accurate bullets and guess what? 125 gr HAP is sized even larger at .356".
If you are experiencing neck tension issue and significant bullet setback, I would first make sure my resizing die was adjusted properly to full-length resize the brass/minimally flare the case mouth/avoid too much taper crimp but if these steps won't resolve the neck tension issue, I would consider using slightly larger sized bullets.
Below is close up picture of RMR 124 gr FMJ sized .3555" loaded to 1.130" with .378" taper crimp using once-fired Blazer brass and Lee dies seated/crimped in same step. As you can tell, there is pronounced even bulge around the case neck at bullet base indicating good neck tension. I experience essentially no bullet setback when finished rounds are chambered from the magazine - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/mixed-brass-effects-oal.824238/page-2#post-10605996
And while I am a fan of Lee dies, I do not use the FCD for 9mm loads.
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rfwobbly
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vaalpens
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I also use the Lee FCD with plated bullets and basically do the same as ATLDave. Instead of a quarter of a turn, I use one half of a turn. What I do to check if the flare/bell has been removed is place the caliper jaws just below the case mouth with steady pressure, but not to much. You want to be able to slip the caliper jaws over the mouth of the case without changing your pressure. If it is still flared then you won't be able to pull the jaws over the mouth, but if the flare has been removed, then you should be able slip the jaws over the mouth without any additional resistance.
My FCD has a single Sharpie mark on it so that I can easily make the half of a turn.
jmorris
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None of my pistol FCD’s are collet style like their rifle dies are.
I have to agree somewhat, following “screw it down and then screw it down some more” isn’t always going to work. You can measure things and pull bullets etc, to see the cause/effect relationships.
First thing I would do is take a round that has gone through every step except crimp like this.
Don’t worry about fitting the barrel or a case gauge at this point. All we want to know is if there is enough neck tension at this point to keep the bullet from moving when you push on it forcefully.
If the answer is no, there is no amount of crimp that is going to fix your problem. The problem is in sizing or expanding, fixing that problem will be the only cure.
If the answer is yes, the bullet won’t budge but after crimping it becomes loose. You are applying too much crimp.
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I guess I need to disassemble my Lee 9mm FCD and look at the crimping mechanism. If it’s not a collet-type taper crimp, then what is its mechanism?
If anyone has the answer I would be interested!
Ironicaintit
Member
It's pretty much all been said, and well....but here's my $.02.
I only crimp to remove the flare, and I only flare enough to be able to seat the bullet squarely, and no more than that. If you don't occasionally have to wrestle and cuss one in there, you may be flaring too much.
With 9mm, I have problem with neck tension with one brand; federal. Especially the type of federal that are slightly concave towards the primer. As I'm going through the flaring step, I'll gauge by my calibrated wrist and the seat of my pants how loose a case is, and I pretty much toss out all the federals. I have a high failure rate with blazer as well, but not as bad.
Winchester, WW, R-P, PMC, herters, WCC, S&B, are all good.
Just what I've seen and how I do it.
I only crimp to remove the flare, and I only flare enough to be able to seat the bullet squarely, and no more than that. If you don't occasionally have to wrestle and cuss one in there, you may be flaring too much.
With 9mm, I have problem with neck tension with one brand; federal. Especially the type of federal that are slightly concave towards the primer. As I'm going through the flaring step, I'll gauge by my calibrated wrist and the seat of my pants how loose a case is, and I pretty much toss out all the federals. I have a high failure rate with blazer as well, but not as bad.
Winchester, WW, R-P, PMC, herters, WCC, S&B, are all good.
Just what I've seen and how I do it.
Ironicaintit
Member
It simply tapers in, the same way a flare die tapers out.
Edit....I'm looking at my die, and have no idea what brand it is. The only brand stamp on it, is an "H" within a "C"
It has a sleeve in it that has a taper "crimp" built in, just like the taper "crimp" built into an RCBS or Redding seater or crimp only die. You can order collet type FCDs for pistol for revolver calibers, but the standard Lee revolver crimp die is a roll crimp, just like other makers.
Edit: Whoops, just checked, Hornady has the crimp built into a sleeve. Lee has it built into the die body just like RCBS and Redding.
I saw that illustration on the Lee site. It looks like a revolver cartridge. Possibly illustrating a roll crimp?
I just wonder if a 9mm taper crimp uses the same mechanism.
The carbide ring is at the bottom of the case. I would think the crimp ring might be steel.
ray15
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I posted pictures of the crimp rings of both the 9mm (taper) and 38 Special (roll) FCD above in post #36. The pics aren't great but you can see what's going on.
*edit* I just put a file to one; I believe they are steel.
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Yea, the regular FCD has an insert with the crimp ledge built in, may have been what I was first thinking of, the regular Lee seaters have it built into the body. The right pic in ray15s post looks like an expander insert, not a crimp insert. I guess that is just coincidence and the crimp is built into the inside of that somewhere. I don't have a revolver standard FCD (Or a collet style either for that matter, just a couple of auto caliber FCDs.)
The standard FCD crimp insert has some give because of the oring on the plug and makes it a little more forgiving.
The standard FCD crimp insert has some give because of the oring on the plug and makes it a little more forgiving.
OP
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preacherJohn
Member
This is what I'm looking for; so you say AFTER seating the bullet, the neck tension should be tight enough that the bullet should not move, but the excessive crimping causes it to loosen back up?
This could be a possibility; it's difficult for me to place the bullet in the case ever since I had my left wrist fused (I can't bend my wrist backwards), so a lot of my bullets were starting seated a little crooked. So I expanded my case a tad more to be able to seat the bullet on the case a little easier. Crimping always removed that bell, and it plunks fine. But, I never knew that crimping would looses the bullet in the case, I always thought the opposite. I did order Hornady's bullet placing die the other day and should get it by this wknd. I'll be resetting and remeasuring all things then.
Half my cases are probably Fed. I'll have to work around that thin wall; I'm not going to toss them.
bbqreloader
Member
BDS posted this awhile back and found it to work very well. Since following it, never had a bullet setback issue.
See post #7
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/45-acp-crimping-question.740694/
See post #7
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/45-acp-crimping-question.740694/
LiveLife
Member
I took 5 random samples of 9mm Federal brass (both FC and .FC. headstamp with dots) from a box of 5000 I bought from bullseye match winning member ljnowell (BTW lowest price I found at $19.50/1000 - $105/5000 shipped for polished mostly once-fired and $37.50/1000 for once-fired .223 brass with crimped primer pockets) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/brass-for-sale-9mm-380-45-40-il.820011/#post-10550945
I flared the case mouth and full-length sized them to straighten the case wall at mouth and got following measurements along with 2 Winchester cases as reference (Measurements were taken 4 times around the case mouth to ensure case wall thickness consistency):
1. FC: .011" - .011" - .011" - .011"
2. FC: .012" - .012" - .012" - .012"
3. FC: .012" - .012" - .012" - .012"
4. .FC.: .012" - .012" - .012" - .012"
5. .FC.: .012" - .012" - .012" - .012"
6. WIN: .011" - .011" - .011" - .011"
7. WIN: .011" - .011" - .011" - .011"
So with the exception of first case, these Federal brass were thicker than my reference Winchester brass.
Next I took RMR 124 gr FP bullets (sized .3555") and loaded them in the sample Federal and Winchester cases to 1.080" OAL with .378" taper crimp and without primers or powder (FCD was not used - Bullets were seated/crimped in same station with Lee combo seat/taper crimp die).
The FC/.FC./WIN dummy rounds were loaded from 9mm magazine in Glock 22 with KKM 9mm barrel and slide was released without riding it 3 times. There was no bullet setback measured after chambering the rounds 3 times from the magazine. (FYI, all above RMR RN/FN/JHP rounds with WIN brass were chambered 3 times without bullet setback).
So I would hang onto those Federal cases.
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LiveLife
Member
It's the "High Road" way of verifying reloading myth/truth.
As already mentioned to Walkalong, I think it's time for another myth busting thread on case wall thickness as I am measuring thicker case walls even on RP (Remington) cases.
As already mentioned to Walkalong, I think it's time for another myth busting thread on case wall thickness as I am measuring thicker case walls even on RP (Remington) cases.
LiveLife
Member
No need. Thicker .012" RP case walls are for 9mm.
45ACP RP case walls still measure thinner at .010".
45ACP RP case walls still measure thinner at .010".
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