Let's Talk .380

On a post in this thread I had mentioned that the Polycase ARX ammunition was getting hard to find. That seems to be over. In fact, Midway is even stocking the bullets, along with factory ammunition. I ordered 500 bullets so I can make up some practice ammunition (yes, the bulk of my practice is still using the cheapest stuff I can crank out, and ARX is still not the cheapest).

The Load data for these rounds calls for a surprisingly heavy load. Someone elsewhere pointed out that it is probably to insure reliable cycling with such a lite bullet. However, that is pure speculation.

Hasaf said:

On a post in this thread I had mentioned that the Polycase ARX ammunition was getting hard to find. That seems to be over. In fact, Midway is even stocking the bullets, along with factory ammunition. I ordered 500 bullets so I can make up some practice ammunition (yes, the bulk of my practice is still using the cheapest stuff I can crank out, and ARX is still not the cheapest).

The Load data for these rounds calls for a surprisingly heavy load. Someone elsewhere pointed out that it is probably to insure reliable cycling with such a lite bullet. However, that is pure speculation.

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Does anyone have any real life/morgue data about these bullets? And performance against heavy clothing? And how does it do with barriers?

People are generally much tougher then gel, as skin alone accounts for 4 inches of ballistics gel and you generally have to hit bone to get a vital organ

Low_Speed_Notper8or said:

Does anyone have any real life/morgue data about these bullets? And performance against heavy clothing? And how does it do with barriers?

People are generally much tougher then gel, as skin alone accounts for 4 inches of ballistics gel and you generally have to hit bone to get a vital organ

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Frankly, against barriers I expect it to perform poorly. That is one of the reasons for choosing it.
As the manufacturer states:

Simply put: It’s less likely to go through your walls and into your neighbor’s house.

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from here
To me this is a major advantage. All bullet designs entail compromises; Some people feel that the only thing that should be used is standard ball ammunition, other prefer Hollow Points, of those the XTP family seem best.

What I haven't done, or seen done, is to conduct a multiple dry wall test and see if the Polycase ammunition performs as designed. By that I mean that a success would be to shoot through less drywall, not more. That test is something I hope to get to this summer.

I agree with your view their on not wanting penetration.

I mean 147grain 9mm, .357 sig, 40 and 10mm and hotter .45 ACP probably has too much penetration. But those have enough energy to really make full use of hollow points

However, with the muzzle energy of a .380 out of a short barrel, especially with flat bullets and weaker american ammo you get maybe 16-20ish inches of penetration in gel with heavy clothing. In the real world that translates to being able to go clean through a normal person with not much energy on the back end and and probably stopping inside a larger person with heavy clothing at a less then ideal angle

. If I am in a life or death situation, I am not super concerned about over-penetration, as through the target its not a huge risk. Misses are probably a bigger issue, however even in police shootings its something that rarely if ever happens, just like a mag change. Also that is why why 8+1 rounds is the minimum I carry, especially in .380/9x18 and insist on guns with a single action trigger and where I can get my whole hand on the gun so I can make those rounds count. I realize to drop someone you need either a CNS hit(brain/spine) or multiple "A Zone" hits and it will still take someone 15-30 seconds at least to leak out. Also why I like penetration is if I make a good heartbox shot I prefer to be able to punch through the sternum and/or spinal cord.

I have a Russian high capacity 380, it shoots everything well, is mild on recoil, and is very accurate. It's also heavy for a 380.
I carry an LCP, it's light, shoots ok, is decent on accuracy if I do my job, and is great to slip into a pocket holster. It sports a hogue grip wrap so it doesn't beat my hand up too much when I practice with it.

Just for kicks, I'll mention my last .380 ACP - a High Point Carbine (I know this is a handgun thread, but can't resist). It's fun to shoot (really, it is a blast!), no recoil, relatively quiet, and I can shoot it to 50-75 yards decently.

I have a Beretta 84f, but I find it a little heavy to carry. I'm looking for a smaller .380 or 9mm.

I have way more .380’s than anyone needs. From a couple Sig P230 (232’s) a Colt Government Model, Kel-Tec, Colt 1903 and others.

Hands down, my favorite .380 for carry is a Remington RM380. Locked breech, easy to manipulate slide. Fits in pocket. All metal.

I carry the non +P Buffalo Bore hardcast.

I want penetration.

I carry a Remington RM380 as a backup. It is a locked breech pistol that is, IMO, a soft shooter.

Precision One's loading of the Hornady XTP puts the bullet an average of 13.53" deep when tested against the IWBA 4 x denim protocol and an average of 13.81" deep in bare gel.

Tallball said:

Here is the Colt Government Model. It's the gentlest 380 I've ever shot. It's basically a larger Mustang or P238.

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I’ve wanted one of this for a long time. If they only had sights that could see.

I wonder if Sig will ever copy it? A Sig P238XL? That would be sweet.

The sights aren't THAT bad, better than my old High Power or 1911 GI model.

The sights aren’t that bad. My eyes however, are just that bad.

I think the Browning 1911-380 has to be as soft a shooter as the Colt Government Model 380. The gun has problems or had problems - I'm not sure what the problems are or were, or if the problems were fixed or what.

rskent said:

If they only had sights that could see.

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For a while I considered sending my Gov't off to Cylinder and Slide... they can put a set of good sights on it... but the cost was absolutely insane. The FSP on it is just horrible...

Steveo_1704 writes:

I have a Beretta 84f, but I find it a little heavy to carry. I'm looking for a smaller .380 or 9mm.

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You'd probably like the Bersa Thunder, Thunder Plus, or Thunder CC, for a similarly-operated pistol in .380ACP.

The available choices in 9mm Luger can make your head spin; there are so many of them (same for smaller .380 handguns that are not DA/SA like your Beretta.)

C0untZer0 said:

I think the Browning 1911-380 has to be as soft a shooter as the Colt Government Model 380. The gun has problems or had problems - I'm not sure what the problems are or were, or if the problems were fixed or what.

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Yes I would like to know what the problems are too since I have one and it has been absolutely flawless.

kokapelli said:

Yes I would like to know what the problems are too since I have one and it has been absolutely flawless.

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I bought a 191-380 about two years ago and had magazine problems with it.
Spare magazines were hard to find back then so It was strictly a range gun until I was able to find a spare. In the meantime the original magazine started to give me trouble; the 1st 4-5 times I shot full mags, everything was fine. Then it started to bobble the seventh round; at 1st, only once in a while, then constantly. Folks on the Browning forum suggested all kinds of remedies most of which involved bending the mag lips in which I was wont to do. Eventually I found another Browning mag and, like the 1st, feed flawlessly for the 1st 4-5 mag loads, then started bobbling the 7th round just like the 1st. I had disassembled the mag prior to use and measured the spring dia and length as well as the magazine lips spread. Both mags appeared to be identical except the new spring was considerably longer before being loaded and emptied. The 7th round bobble resulted in the nose of the bullet tipped up into the barrel hood.
At this point returned the gun and mags to Browning. After 8-10 weeks they returned it to me indicating they had replaced the two magazines and the barrel. There have been no problems since after ~500 additional rnds downrange. The magazine spring in the new mags may be slightly larger dia wire +.001-2" (hard to get a consistent measurement with my tools on this coil of wire). Otherwise identical to the originals.
I imagine there was inconsistent or inadequate spring temper in the originals.

MedWheeler said:

Steveo_1704 writes:
You'd probably like the Bersa Thunder, Thunder Plus, or Thunder CC, for a similarly-operated pistol in .380ACP.
The available choices in 9mm Luger can make your head spin; there are so many of them (same for smaller .380 handguns that are not DA/SA like your Beretta.)

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thanks, i've considered the bersa thunders, just have not had the opportunity to shoot any yet..

We've got two 380's here. My wife carries one in her carry purse, with a dedicated holster pocket. Her's is a Bersa Thunder,, and she can shoot lights out at 5-7 yards. Not too bad for a handicapped, old woman who walks with a cane (someday's with a walker). She had a Bersa Firestorm in 22 several years back and loved it. When she saw the 380 (it was the purple that did it) she knew she wanted it.



The other one is "her's" also. It's a Sig P238. Again she got it mostly because she liked the color. She's shot it a few times to make sure it works, but she doesn't care for small grip, and she wasn't crazy about cocked and locked carry.



We've used various types of FMJ ammo with no problems in either (Or a Ruger LCP I used to have). We also use Hornady "American Gunner" 95 grain HP's in both, again with no problems.

Thanks all for a great conversation.

Great thread. I can’t wait to get my LCP back from Ruger!

First over the last 22 years as some form of a peace officer I've carried a 380 probably more than anything else other than a .22. I've had and used Walthers, KelTec's, Iver Johnson, FEG (SMC and PMK), Colt and maybe a couple of others. Best ammo is that which reliably feeds thru your pistol. Ball usually works in most. Some guns may need some tweaking to get them to function with hollow points. In some states (NJ) you don't have a HP option and in those PowRball and Glasser Safety Slugs and the Hornaday with the plastic tip are the only options as at least the last time I checked NJ considers them as ball ammo.

The FEG's were great for carry and shooting as they had a larger grip, longer barrel and aluminum frame that didn't drag my pants down around my ankles.

At one time I owned a Colt 1903 with a .380 barrel and it was the most forgiving with regards to ammo.

"favorite defensive ammo brand and bullet type?" Critical defense or reloads. I'm more concerned with accuracy.
"maximum effective range for accurate grouping?" I shoot into a bullet trap 30 feet away, but this is because that's what's available. ()
"What is your favorite mode of carry for a .380?" Stuck in my coat pocket. I'd really like to carry my PPK's, which I find to be extremely accurate, in a subtle shoulder rig, but carry a KelTec loose in my pocket. Serious duty, like church defense, a whole 'nuther weapon in .45 ACP.
"Do you have an opinion on a best and worst .380 to shoot?" I like that PPK's, as stated, but it's too heavy to put in my pocket. If the situation ever arose where I'd need it the steps in my wish list would change rapidly up to my DW Razorback 10MM, and from there to my AR. They won't fit in my pocket though and that's right at the crux of the deal.
"Anything I didn't ask about the .380 but should have?" The discussion of need verses effectiveness over comfort is always important but seldom discussed, but we don't know if there will ever be a need nor how much effective stopping power is needed, yet we usually know what we find comfortable, and that's why the .380 exists.

Ppk was the worst gun I have ever shot in terms of hurting me. Slide got me, recoil was sharp, I just hated shooting it. I have a Glock 42, and I've shot it a lot. Based on the design of the gun (as opposed to blowback 380s) and watching how the cases, primers, recoil and ejection look, I have been starting to explore above max loads trying to get some more oomph out of the 380. But I may need a new powder.

All that to say, I love the size and shootability of the 42, though I keep shooting low, even after a few thousand rounds. I've been thinking of getting a different front sight, but at the same time I'm looking at consolidating calibers into 9mm. (9 is on the dillon 650, 380 on the turret press)

My favorite .380 is the Sig P230. It's too big for the pocket, but it easily conceals on the belt, or inside the pants, under a baggy shirt. I'm 6 feet and only 160 pounds.

I carry an lcp in my back pocket.

Ammo is buffalo bore +p 102 grain hard cast. 1 in the pipe and it's the next one outta the mag followed by 100 Remington golden sabers that I hand loaded at +p.

They say with modern bullets it is adequate but the left over deer caucuses i had last year after i cleaned them say nope to a hollow point tha expands. Granted the lcp has a short barrel but still dont most carry guns?

The range I practice at is 25 yards with this little guy. It is not accurate by any means but I can constantly hold upper torso with it. With head shots at 10 yards.