AIWB gun goes off...

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JayZee said:
^^^^ I would NEVER carry ANY gun without a manual safety anywhere out a pocket DAO gun.
I carry AIWB, S&W 9MM Shield WITH manual safety engaged...I would NEVER carry AIWB without a manual safety/grip safety...you are JUST asking for it....Call me a "wimp","yellar belly" or whatever. I use manual safeties on all the guns I carry even my pocket .25Auto Taurus. Glocks are great, but they are NOT appendix guns...anything lacking a safety is a BAD idea for concealed carry IMHO. Open carry/police/military/on the farm, fits the Glock/guns lacking manual safeties better if you ask me. I think the issue is with the lack of a manual safety honestly. He probably reholstered and had clothing jam in the holster/trigger guard?

I know manual safeties are not "tacticool" or anything...but I use them. Mag disconnects are garbage, but a good manual safety is a KEY if you ask me. Training, training, training....maybe it is because I dry fire/snap drills with my guns, and find no issue with disengaging AND engaging a safety on a weapon. I do practices where I draw the gun empty, flick safety pointed down range, re-engage, reholster. Do this SLOW, and forever. I do about a few hours a week. I find,breaking down my draw into sections, it is easier to master and then flow. Just my limited expeirience.
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I got no problem with manual safties, carried 1911s for years and them and Glocks are about all that's in my collection these days.

I don't like manual safeties with striker triggers though. I find that redundant if you treat your firearm with proper respect.

Some day I'll be able to afford a Wilson EDC X9 or Sig will finally make a SAO 229.
 
JR24 said:
I don't like manual safeties with striker triggers though. I find that redundant if you treat your firearm with proper respect.
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Why? Just because most striker triggers aren't quite as light and/or short as a SAO hammer-releasing trigger? If the striker trigger got light/short enough, would you want a safety on it?

Or is it something about the actual striker mechanism specifically?
 
ATLDave said:
Why? Just because most striker triggers aren't quite as light and/or short as a SAO hammer-releasing trigger? If the striker trigger got light/short enough, would you want a safety on it?

Or is it something about the actual striker mechanism specifically?
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Length of travel mostly, a good 4 lb trigger with no travel cuts the margin of error too much for my tastes vs a glock/m&p/320/vp9/ppq/APEX, etc. I generalized strikers as a style a bit for brevity.

Something like the Walther P99AS (or HK LEM) in single action still has a lot of pre travel and I'd be ok carrying it without decocking, but something like a 1911 id want a safety, though I could probably live with the grip safety like an XD or the Hudson H9.

Just my preferences, YMMV.
 
Got it. You and I draw the line at different places on the continuum, that's all. I've got to be revolver-type pull before I'm ok going safetiless - mainly because I don't see the benefit to me in not having a safety. A few hundred thousand reps with safety-equipped pistol draws makes me pretty comfortable I'm going to get it off if I want to.
 
If the holster was designed correctly and used correctly, the trigger opening would have been completely blocked, right? How can you have an accidental discharge if nothing can touch the trigger? Am I missing something?

It shouldn't be hard to design a holster that covers triggers reliably.

I remember an airline pilot accidentally shot his jet in 2008. Wasn't there a big fuss about stupidly designed holsters the FAA forced them to use? I seem to recall a ridiculous design that had a pin or lock running through the trigger guard. I believe they were set up so that if you pushed the gun down in the holster, the pin or whatever applied pressure to the trigger. Maybe Dianne Feinstein designed it.

I carry a Glock, but I don't really understand the "trigger safety." If the gun goes off when you pull the trigger, seems to me you have no safety. Savage Accu-triggers have little lever things sticking out of them, but Savage doesn't call them safeties. I guess there is something I don't get.
 
ATLDave said:
Got it. You and I draw the line at different places on the continuum, that's all. I've got to be revolver-type pull before I'm ok going safetiless - mainly because I don't see the benefit to me in not having a safety. A few hundred thousand reps with safety-equipped pistol draws makes me pretty comfortable I'm going to get it off if I want to.
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Same feeling I have, the Taurus .25ACP I have is DAO,with full length trigger travel. Heavy enough trigger, long enough travel.I carry it with a safety just as a precaution. Training, training, training. Shame this guy had to blow his nuts off because of his negligence. Appendix carry isn't new at all, just the guns without manual safeties/heavy DAO trigger pull. Colt SAA were AIWB, on an empty cylinder plenty of time.

My first carry gun was a H&R .32 Hammer less in the front pocket. Carried an IJ in the same configuration as well. Trigger was easily 15lbs, maybe 20. It was the second model, with the trigger safety the Glock "invented" later on.
 
stevehgraham said:
I carry a Glock, but I don't really understand the "trigger safety." If the gun goes off when you pull the trigger, seems to me you have no safety. Savage Accu-triggers have little lever things sticking out of them, but Savage doesn't call them safeties. I guess there is something I don't get.
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As I understand it, the trigger dingus functions to prevent the trigger from "pulling itself" with its own inertia if the gun is dropped and lands barrel-up.
 
I have no idea as to the specific cause of the incident in the video. Does anyone actually know what happened? It's hard to tell.
 
I have only one that I comfortably appendix carry, S&W 6906. The hammer is down, firing pin is blocked and it is properly holstered before I clip in the holster.
 
JudgeHolden10 said:
I have no idea as to the specific cause of the incident in the video. Does anyone actually know what happened? It's hard to tell.
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I’ve been wondering about this too. The holster is Kydex, and I don’t see how it could have gotten into the trigger guard unless it was actually cracked/broken. The guy’s T-shirt is well clear from the gun and the holster. I don’t really see how the undershirt would have bunched up in the holster and caught the trigger. Not impossible, but really difficult.

One thing that IS possible, is a mechanical malfunction. Insufficient cruciform/striker engagement, coupled with a faulty or clogged firing pin block, and when the guy bent he twisted the gun and slide just enough for it to go Bang!

This could happen for a whole lot of reasons: worn or out-of-specs parts, wrong, out-of-specs or mismatched aftermarket parts, lint accumulation.

When you understand how this particular gun works, and how little engagement between parts that are on different main components (cruciform on frame, striker on slide) keeps things from going off, you’ll see that it doesn’t take much for the whole thing to become an AD waiting to happen.

Add aftermarket trigger bars, firing pin plungers, firing pins, springs, and so on to the mix, and you have the potential for exactly what we see in this video.
 
One thing that IS possible, is a mechanical malfunction. Insufficient cruciform/striker engagement, coupled with a faulty or clogged firing pin block, and when the guy bent he twisted the gun and slide just enough for it to go Bang!
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Technically, that's at least two things, not one thing. You are correct that it would take at least two problems with the gun before it would be possible for it to go off without something operating the trigger.

You are also correct that it is "possible" that two things could have simultaneously gone wrong with the gun. But it's not probable, IMO. What is most probable is that something operated the trigger and the undershirt seems like the most likely culprit.

My guess is that a fold of it got caught in the trigger guard during the holstering process--partially pulling the trigger--and the act of bending over forced the gun deeper into the holster and completed the trigger pull.

Holstering an IWB with an undershirt gives me the heeby-jeebies for exactly this reason. If I were going to carry in the position that this person was carrying, I would not reholster the gun with the holster on my belt. I would remove the holster, holster the gun and then install the holster/gun combo on my belt.
When you understand how this particular gun works, and how little engagement between parts that are on different main components (cruciform on frame, striker on slide) keeps things from going off, you’ll see that it doesn’t take much for the whole thing to become an AD waiting to happen.
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The problem with this "explanation" is that the things that could cause engagement problems (such as excessive play between the slide and frame) are actually going to work in favor of the firing pin safety remaining in the safe position. In fact, with the slide/barrel combo off the frame (zero engagement between the striker and trigger bar), there's actually less chance of an unintentional discharge than with it on the gun.
 
JohnKSa said:
The problem with this "explanation" is that the things that could cause engagement problems (such as excessive play between the slide and frame) are actually going to work in favor of the firing pin safety remaining in the safe position. In fact, with the slide/barrel combo off the frame (zero engagement between the striker and trigger bar), there's actually less chance of an unintentional discharge than with it on the gun.
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First, as we agree, for the gun to discharge without the trigger being pulled, you’d need the firing pin block to be inactive. This can happen due to any or any combination of several things: swarf, lint, gummed lubricant, too light/broken/corroded plunger spring, wrong/too small/too large/damaged plunger, worn/damaged firing pin, and more. The problem is that if this happens, you won’t know until someone very carefully inspects the disassembled gun, or Murphy strikes.

Only when the FPB is out of order, the engagement becomes a factor, because as long as the FPB is functional, the firing pin (if disengaged accidentally) would just rest on the plunger. Not sure if there would be enough energy in the spring to get a round off when you then pull the trigger, but if there was the owner may not even notice the condition.

Engagement problems can come from aftermarket parts, DIY gunsmithing, or even out-of-specs factory parts. Slide/frame play would only be the last camel’s straw.

All these things have happened before. They just need to happen together, and you can have this situation. The probability is remote, but is definitely not zero.

But as long as someone who has inspected the actual gun, holster, wound, and shooter’s attire, and has found definitive evidence of what happened chimes in, we can only speculate.
 
Long gun with no manual safety = Winchester 1894. I guess technically it has the lever safety to insure the bolt is fully closed... and the half cock which is how you'd carry it in the field.

So...
 
Has it been determined that this really happened? From what I saw he did not force the gun into the holster and his shirt is clear. No flash which I suppose is possible. Everyone remained all too calm and the first aid bag was way too handy. As for the gloves, I don't have an explanation as I don't know what the lady was doing with them already on. Why did the video come to an end where it did? Color me skeptical.
 
The answer (I think) to what pulled (or more correctly...pushed) the trigger is thrown to the floor in the last couple frames of the video. Watch closely. After throwing down the gun, then the holster and opening his pants....he reaches in and pulls out something long, thin and dark and throws it to his left. There are only a few frames of the video showing it and it's easy to miss...but it looks to me like a pen or comb? Can't tell...but from where he pulls it that's the most likely culprit in the AD/ND.
 
My wife carries the G42, which is the near twin to the 43. So i am VERY interested in how this happened. She carries in her purse holstered in a pocket there. She holsters (if it was out at all) then clips the holster into the pocket. If it went off, it should always be down. I made sure of that. However, a gun going off randomly makes me VERY nervous.
 
RecoilRob said:
The answer (I think) to what pulled (or more correctly...pushed) the trigger is thrown to the floor in the last couple frames of the video. Watch closely. After throwing down the gun, then the holster and opening his pants....he reaches in and pulls out something long, thin and dark and throws it to his left. There are only a few frames of the video showing it and it's easy to miss...but it looks to me like a pen or comb? Can't tell...but from where he pulls it that's the most likely culprit in the AD/ND.
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I saw him throw away the holster. Did you see something else? Is there a way to run youtube and other videos in slow motion?
 
I see a gun, a holster, and one other item he pitches to the floor later. I don't put objects in my underwear. I wear Carhartt work jeans with all sorts of pockets. If I knew someone who kept things in his underwear, I would wonder if he had some kind of issue. It's creepy, and it's not sanitary.

I think you can see him shoving a third object into his pants after he holsters the gun.

I don't want to pick on this guy, but I am not impressed by what I see. If you think your gun discharged without a good reason, why would you take it out and throw it on the floor?
 
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