American Rifleman: Testing the 38 Special

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labnoti said:
I can't feel the difference between a .38 Special +P and one loaded to 10,000 psi higher pressure. I can tell a difference between a light .38 Special and a full .357 magnum, but there's a vast spectrum of energy in-between. .38 Special has a very, very low pressure limit from its 1898 origins, and +P only extends it a little bit. But the specification for .357 magnum goes from there all the way to doubling it.

.38 Special - 17,000 psi
.38 Special +P - 20,000 psi
.357 Magnum (SAAMI) - 35,000 psi
.357 Magnum (CIP) - 43,511 psi

Whereas .38 Special +P rounds which are typically loaded to around 18,000 psi have proven to be lacking when evaluated against standards, there is more than 15,000 psi additional pressure available with .357 magnum. It doesn't all have to be used. Because .38 +P is "borderline" effective, just a little more velocity can make hollowpoint expansion reliable, and increase penetration.

Considering other contemporary handgun cartridges (9mm, .40 S&W) operate at greater than 35,000 psi, why would it seem prudent to avoid the 35,000 psi pressures of .357 magnum, but not those other cartridges?

9mm SAAMI is 35,000psi, but nobody talks about it being a blinding wrist-breaker in their little LC9's or Bodyguards. Admittedly, those guns have slides and springs to absorb some recoil, but I think the recoil and flash issues of .357 magnum are overblown except for some specific loadings.
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I know what the SAAMI specs are. I also have a GP100 and a LCRx... You don't want to be shooting the GP's ammo in the LCRx.. It does hurt and it does make it hard to hit the target.

The other thing is that it's not pressure that determines recoil. In a 35,000 PSI 9mm round you have at most ~7 grains of powder - which doesn't compare to the 16.7gr max charge of a full-house 158gr. .357, much less the 22.0 gr. charge used in a full-house 125 grain load. It's the weight of powder that drives total recoil impulse. And if you use a fast enough powder in your .357 to where you make pressure with 7 grains - you have something little more powerful than the best 38+p loadings. The case capacity of .357 makes it an entirely different beast than autoloader designs like the 9mm or 40S&W.
 
labnoti said:
Longer barrels are certainly capable of developing higher velocity, but snubnosed revolvers are overwhelmingly more significant today. For Colt, it's all they make. Kimber is the same. Ruger and S&W still make long revolvers, but very few still carry them in lieu of an automatic. Whereas snubnosed revolvers like the j frame and LCR are more popular for concealed carry in the US than any other gun. At a recent CCW class, 9 out of 11 had them. The other guys had a Glock and a 1911 which it's doubtful they will actually carry. Let's face it, probably only 1 out of those 11 will actually carry, but if they do it will be a small snubnose.
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I couldn't care less what's more prevalent, significant, or popular. If people are concerned about the penetration potential of a 38 special, a longer barrel WILL help. If folks can't inconvenience themselves by carrying a barrel longer than two inches, then it's on them if their defense gun is ineffective. It's an option was my point. There are others I listed if a longer barrel doesn't suite someone.
 
460Shooter said:
If people are concerned about the penetration potential of a 38 special, a longer barrel WILL help.
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I don't disagree with this as a general rule but it is not cut and dried.

Take the 90-gr Super Vel load for example. It had the highest velocity but also was one of the worst for penetration. Would an additional inch or two of barrel fix this? Probably not. I bet the higher velocity would only cause the bullet to over-expand and break apart sooner and penetrate even less
 
USBP379 said:
Take the 90-gr Super Vel load for example. It had the highest velocity but also was one of the worst for penetration. Would an additional inch or two of barrel fix this? Probably not. I bet the higher velocity would only cause the bullet to over-expand and break apart sooner and penetrate even less
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I agree with this assessment, but feel the final conclusion should be it would be best not to use Super Vel. Leading products like Gold Dot or HST are going to do nothing but improve with barrel length. Between the lack of penetration, poor weight retention and lackluster accuracy demonstrated it would be hard to view the SV load as technically competent.
 
Boutique bullets are in my experience answers looking for problems. They turn up when people want to make a cartridge do something that a different cartridge or a different gun could accomplish.
 
From years of killing game I want my SD weapon to deposit as much of its energy into the BG and not wasted on over penetration. As a civilian in a self defense situation the idea I have to shoot through walls or car doors is absurd. I beg the powers of the universe from my knees I NEVER have to test my theory.
 
USBP379 said:
There are some mild 357 Magnum loads out there that are loaded for the snub market. While not full-power, they do offer higher velocity than what's normally seen from 38 Special or 38 +P. One of these loads is probably going to be the best available choice for those who are concerned about recoil and excessive muzzle flash/blast.
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I've got a box or two of Buffalo Bore reduced recoil 158gr JHP 357Mags I keep handy for my 2.5" M19. Great power to weight ratio in that combination.
 
I'm in support of the wad cutter, Having an Airwt, shooting high pressure hollow points can get painful and accuracy suffers, with wad cutters I can shoot a few boxes with great accuracy and no flinching. An accurate shot with anything is far better than a bad shot with the best round out there, FACT!! I've taken rabbit, skunks and squirrels with the lowly 38 wad cutter, and feel that I could easily make an accurate shot on a human size target. I also own a 45, a 357 Max, and even a 3030 pistol, but each has a specific purpose and all the larger calibers are heavier and easier shooting than the Airweight.
 
gotboostvr said:
I've got a box or two of Buffalo Bore reduced recoil 158gr JHP 357Mags I keep handy for my 2.5" M19. Great power to weight ratio in that combination.
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My concern with some of these loads is that the reduced load, coupled with the short barrel, may not push the bullet fast enough for reliable expansion. Have you chrono'ed any, by chance?
 
USBP379 said:
My concern with some of these loads is that the reduced load, coupled with the short barrel, may not push the bullet fast enough for reliable expansion. Have you chrono'ed any, by chance?
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Buffalo-Bore is very good about testing their ammo in real world guns and then publishing the results with each product on there website. They reports that particular load will do just over 1000fps from that mean spirited little 340PD.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=105
 
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Just for kicks and exposing your self to more options, look at Underwood Extreme Defender ammo videos. I am just an instructor and I have no affiliation with them but this new form or bullet technology has converted me especially outside the confines of my own home where I want to have the ability to keep my bullet on it's intended track after shooting through a windshield or car door.
 
USBP379 said:
My concern with some of these loads is that the reduced load, coupled with the short barrel, may not push the bullet fast enough for reliable expansion. Have you chrono'ed any, by chance?
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I have not personally verified the velocity, but theres enough independent testing that I don't worry that it's significantly different than advertised.

I do know that's it's very accurate in my M19.
 
340PD said:
Just for kicks and exposing your self to more options, look at Underwood Extreme Defender ammo videos. I am just an instructor and I have no affiliation with them but this new form or bullet technology has converted me especially outside the confines of my own home where I want to have the ability to keep my bullet on it's intended track after shooting through a windshield or car door.
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I may be mistaken but I see these as more gimmick than anything else. Designed to make an impressive swirl in a gel block but not much else.
 
USBP379 said:
I don't disagree with this as a general rule but it is not cut and dried.

Take the 90-gr Super Vel load for example. It had the highest velocity but also was one of the worst for penetration. Would an additional inch or two of barrel fix this? Probably not. I bet the higher velocity would only cause the bullet to over-expand and break apart sooner and penetrate even less
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I agree with that sentiment, the .38 needs a good weight to it, I feel around 140 or higher and some decent speed to get working.
 
Water-Man said:
That's all well and fine, but what if the good Doc hasn't done any testing of a particular load, such as Underwood.
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I haven't tester Underwood's Extreme Defender but I did chrono their 38+P 125 grain hollow point. The claimed 1200 FPS and I averaged 1190 from my SP101 2.25".
 
The Evangelist Cowboy said:
Having read many books on Cirillo, There hasnt been a single time where I saw his use of a 1911, in fact he stated he preferred higher velocity light bullets. He carried 4 handguns, a colt cobra, 2 smith model 10's, and a walther ppk, other than that they had long guns to that he used like the Ithaca 37 and M1 Carbine, his main partner Bill Allard preferred the 1911 and it worked well for him a Colt Gold Cup.
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I didn't read about Cirillo using a 1911. He told me about it.

You are correct about the guns he usually used though.
 
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