American Rifleman: Testing the 38 Special

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Great thread. The 38 Special is the round shoot the most in handguns. For my 442 I prefer 140-158gr bullets. Mostly I use 148gr wadcutters and 158gr lead hollow points. I almost never shoot jacketed bullets. I feel the 38 works best with all lead bullets. but thats just my own opinion. I like my handloaded Wc bullets loaded to a little over 850fps. Not too much recoil and plenty of penetration. I have shot a bunch of these at water bottles and have always been impressed with the impact and force they show.

I have posted this before. Its my favorite read on the 38 Special. http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

When it comes to Snubbies I like this book. https://www.amazon.com/Snubby-Revolver-Backup-Concealed-Standard/dp/1581605714
 
I've been loading up some 230gr .38s from Badman Bullets. I'm happy with them but not sure I would use them for defense as I prefer factory for that. However, worth a look if you're in the heavy camp.
 
.38 Spcl. has been a "go to" choice for years, and I do see the advantage of choosing the best load available.

However:

I fail to see why there is such a push and perceived need for a short barrel when it's the grip frame that's hardest to conceal.
All of these loads would perform better with another inch (or two) of barrel length. We'll quibble over a few FPS velocity and fractions of inches penetration but we won't carry a handgun with a slightly longer barrel, the associated sight raidus, a little more weight, all of which would make it easier to shoot. But instead we have gel results from 2 inch barrels, groups at 7 yards and tiny guns that will nearly break your hand.

Maybe I'm just being cranky tonight. But I don't understand the logic of agonizing over something that has such a simple solution.
 
I was disappointed in the article. It seemed like a by-the-numbers rehash of .38 Special articles over 20 years.
 
Penetration.

Do these penetrate barriers better than ball ammo and/or a good old fashioned hardcast bullet?

I tried the Cor-Bon 110gr DPX in gel a few months ago. Penetration through clothing was pretty much equal to the Buffalo Bore/Barnes stuff tested here.

What surprised me was the DPX vs auto glass from my LCR. Penetration was about 9.5" after auto glass. Not bad for such a small package.
 
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I was disappointed in the article. It seemed like a by-the-numbers rehash of .38 Special articles over 20 years.

So maybe not much has changed in 20 years. Other than the new load from Federal (HST) what's been added to the mix?
 
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.38 Spcl. has been a "go to" choice for years, and I do see the advantage of choosing the best load available.

However:

I fail to see why there is such a push and perceived need for a short barrel when it's the grip frame that's hardest to conceal.
All of these loads would perform better with another inch (or two) of barrel length. We'll quibble over a few FPS velocity and fractions of inches penetration but we won't carry a handgun with a slightly longer barrel, the associated sight raidus, a little more weight, all of which would make it easier to shoot. But instead we have gel results from 2 inch barrels, groups at 7 yards and tiny guns that will nearly break your hand.

Maybe I'm just being cranky tonight. But I don't understand the logic of agonizing over something that has such a simple solution.

Snubby revolvers are one of the most popular options out there for pocket carry, hence the need for a 2" and under barrel. And for a conceal carry gun, 7 yards seems a bit far to me, seeing as how most encounters are more like arms reach distances, where that sight radius doesn't matter as much.
 
Thanks for the link. Always still of casual interest to read another one.

Why "casual" interest?

Well, because my years of working in LE and having been a firearms instructor has exposed me to enough experiences and information that I've developed enough of what I charitably like to think is an informed opinion about this subject.

The two-inch (give or take fractions of an inch) revolver is a predictable and known compromise in many ways when it comes to be serving as a dedicated defensive sidearm. The short barrel length is what it is, and the use of hot-rodded modern ammunition can only take you so far.

A lot of folks like to trot out the FBI's (or ammo manufacturer's) use of scientific gel/barrier testing for duty ammunition, which is all well and good, but when you're talking about significantly reduced revolver barrel lengths, do you really think they're going to produce the same velocities as the older 4"-6" service length barrels? Sure, some of the modern revisions of older JHP designs, and many of the newer designs, have helped offer us some options that have been tweaked and refined to wring more possible "performance" out of the stubby barreled wheelguns, but it's still not going to turn one into a "silk purse".

If someone's lightweight or ultra lightweight revolver can't use +P ... or the shooter can't tolerate or control the increased recoil of +P ... then they're likely left with the standard pressure options. That means from old style wadcutters and semi-wadcutters, to the standard pressure old-style JHP's (which sometimes demonstrated being "iffy' even when fired from service length barrels), to the JHP designs that have been created to offer a better chance of expanding at low velocities realized from short barrels.

The +P loads seem to usually fall between those which were originally designed around at least 4" barreled revolvers, and those specifically designed around the "two-inch" barrels of the popular snubs.

Personally, I've been fortunate enough to have seen the results (personally, and second-hand) of some of the more modern +P JHP loads, fired from snubs, that I've made my own choices over the years. I typically carry either W-W 130gr +P (RA38B in Ranger 50rd boxes, like the PDX1 in 20rd boxes), Speer 135gr +P GDHP, and Remington 125gr +P HPJ/BJHP (Golden Sabre) in the 25rd boxes.

I've also occasionally used the Speer 125gr +P GDHP, as it was available, but I try to only use it for range practice or quals nowadays, preferring the 135gr GDHP over the 125gr version, when it's available.

My existing supply of the venerable W-W 158gr LSWCHP +P and Remington 158gr LHP +P sit as "reserve" ammo in my cabinets (along with some unused remaining older W-W 147gr JHP +P and some Federal 158gr Nyclad LSWCHP +P I used to carry in older times).

In my 37-2 Airweight, which was made on the older short Airweight frame, I won't subject it to +P at all, but have used some different standard pressure JHP's, like the W-W 110gr STHP and the Federal 110gr Hydra-Shock. I picked up some American Gunner 125gr XTP, since the price was right, but I'm not exactly optimistic that it would consistently expand at 2" barrel velocities.

I recently started to change over to the Hornady standard 110gr FTX for my 37, and have thus far found it to offer a bit easier recoil than the other 110gr loads, and it shoots nicely accurately in my 37 Airweight. I haven't had any opportunity to observe any gel testing done using it, but the stuff I've seen available online makes me cautiously hopeful Hornady might've come up with a nicely balanced load that would reach the 10-12" range under normal conditions (yeah, "normal" being more than a little subjective ;) ).

I can always fall back on 148gr target wadcutters and 158gr LSWC's in that Airweight. It's still likely to be about placement, first, last and always, when it comes down to the .38 Spl. as a small concealable defensive handgun, anyway.

The one thing I feel, personally, that I can probably safely opine when it comes to using one of my snub .38's as retirement weapons ... is that the bullet weights probably give a slight edge compared to the lighter bullets available from the major ammo makers for my LCP .380's. Breaking and "defeating" bony structures, at low handgun velocities, seems to be helped with bullet weight.

While I used to jump at the opportunity to buy the latest & greatest new "trick" ammo as a younger man and cop, usually at greater cost than regular ammo (and also typically involving harder effort to consistently find it), I no longer have the desire to try and boot-strap a marginal caliber diminutive handgun into something "more". I'd rather work to make sure my skillset remains reasonably adequate, and doesn't develop too much rust in my retirement years. ;)

Just my own thoughts. :)
 
I recently started to change over to the Hornady standard 110gr FTX for my 37, and have thus far found it to offer a bit easier recoil than the other 110gr loads, and it shoots nicely accurately in my 37 Airweight. I haven't had any opportunity to observe any gel testing done using it, but the stuff I've seen available online makes me cautiously hopeful Hornady might've come up with a nicely balanced load that would reach the 10-12" range under normal conditions...

The 110gr standard pressure Critical Defense load reached 13 inches and expanded to .443" in the article.

This compares directly with the info on Hornady's website although they list expansion as .5" .

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-defense/38-special-110-gr-ftx

Equally interesting is that the 110 +P load is shown to expand to .54" but with penetration reduced to 11.25 inches so a little on the shallow side there. I think I'd stick with the standard pressure stuff.
 
The 110gr standard pressure Critical Defense load reached 13 inches and expanded to .443" in the article.

This compares directly with the info on Hornady's website although they list expansion as .5" .

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-defense/38-special-110-gr-ftx

Equally interesting is that the 110 +P load is shown to expand to .54" but with penetration reduced to 11.25 inches so a little on the shallow side there. I think I'd stick with the standard pressure stuff.

I'd like to eventually learn of its usage in some LE shooting incidents (either off-duty or when used in a Secondary weapon), if only to see how it does when encountering bony structures (sternum, ribs, humerus, shoulder capsule from an oblique angle, etc).

Since 110gr in a .38 S&W Spl is just a little bit heavier than a heavy .380ACP (102gr GS, for example), I'd be curious how it fares in difficult conditions when compared to either a middle weight JHP (125-135gr) or the more pedestrian velocity all-lead 148-158gr loads (but with more flat meplat surface).

Considering the intended retirement CCW role for which I use my snubs (formerly a common off-duty choice), I'm a bit less concerned about potential oblique angles, and more concerned about direct angles. I'm also not dissatisfied with 10"-11" penetration in gel testing for a role which doesn't involve a "duty" situation. Now that I'm retired I'm not going to be involved in on-view or dispatched situations anymore, invoking peace officer powers and actively inserting myself and intervening in situations which don't directly involve my personal daily activities. Trouble is going to have to actively seek me out.

Even so, I think it was back in 2015 some of the statistics for officer-involved shootings (as discussed in an armorer class in 2016) revealed that 88% of those shooting occurred between 3-7yds. In other words, up close, dynamic, rapidly evolving and chaotic (some of the words often heard in official descriptions of such things). This is where I still find my J-frames to perform well for me, when it comes to demanding training drills and quals. Handy and fast.
 
I run Remington .38spl +P 158gr LSWCHP with same in speed strips and speed loaders in my snubby. My wife runs Fed Gold Match 148gr HBWC loaded and Rem 158gr LSWC (no +P, no HP) as reloads.

I can handle the recoil of the FBI load, but when I try out my wife's with her carry loads, I think, "Maybe I ought to switch, this is SO easy to shoot."
 
I had a friend who was negligently shot in shoulder by 110 grain Winchester +p+ "treasury" load out of 2" Colt agent about 8 years back :( Ever since seeing the results I will be using 158 grain Remington soft LSWCHP +p or wadcutters of some sort. No I was not around when it happened. The bullet traveled down his arm a ways and exited, kinda expanded and glanced off shoulder bone. He was welding 2 weeks later .. I was around 40 years ago when same loads hit perp in pelvis area twice and one in leg. He was in wheel chair a while and the pain took him down not physical breakage...
 
Many say that a 3 inch barrel makes a significant difference in 38 special performance. With the exception of pocket carry, a 3 inch barrel revolver shouldn’t be difficult to carry. Ruger seems to be the only company that has a good selection of 3 inch barrel revolvers these days.


I very much agree with this comment. One of the best concealed carry guns I have is a "beater" model 36 Smith and Wesson with a 3 inch barrel ( circa 1980 with round grip wood stocks.) I only paid $180 for it last year because it had been stored improperly and had extensive exterior rust. There was no rust in the bore or internals, however, and the gun had been hardly shot at all.

I took the "unbobbed" hammer off of it and put it on another gun in better shape that had been bobbed, then put another bobbed hammer I had lying around on the rusty three inch gun. (Used unbobbed hammers are very hard to find for vintage J frames, and are 100 bucks or more when you do find them.) I sanded the bad rust off, oiled the gun and test fired the gun (worked great.)

I now have a great working 3 inch .38 Special that literally slides in and out of a IWB holster with no discomfort at all. And I don't worry about carry wear on a quality vintage gun because 1/3 of the finish has been sanded off and/or pitted a little.
 
....I fail to see why there is such a push and perceived need for a short barrel when it's the grip frame that's hardest to conceal.

I think what you say is true about longer barrels not being that much harder to conceal, but in the case of the .38 Special, a 4" barrel isn't really enough either. On average it might give another 100 fps, but the cartridge needs about another 200 fps in some bullet weights to be on par with 9mm.

On the other hand, doubling the pressure limit solves the problem easily, even with short barrels. This was the solution all along since 1930 with the .38/44. Bringing the .38 Special's pressure limit up to the same level as 9mm and .40 easily puts it on par with those cartridges.

There was no safety reason to stop S&W from manufacturing revolvers for .38/44 from 1930 to 1966. But a lot of people have since bought the idea that we need to make the case 1/8" longer before loading it to 35,000 psi to prevent it being loaded in a gun rated only for .38 Special.

The longer .357 magnum case increased powder capacity in a useful way for slower burning powders in long-barreled guns, but it's useless and detrimental to performance in short barrels. Short barrels need moderately faster burning powders, and those powders work better and more consistently with less case volume and higher powder density. The shorter case also works better with short extractor rods.

35,000 psi is not hot. It's standard for 9mm. Keith loaded his .38 Special cartridges to over 42,000 psi and shot 170 grain bullets at over 1100 fps. He used a .38/44 Heavy Duty (basically an N frame chambered for .38 special) in 1930. Today we have lots of J frames, even aluminum ones, that will handle 35,000 psi. Ruger makes 35,000 psi rated LCR's as well. They're chambered for .357 and 9mm.

.38 Special is always going to fall short when loaded to those old 19th century black powder pressure specifications. But we've had 88 years of loading .38 Special to a reasonable modern pressure of 35,000 psi where it works very well indeed.
 
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It has come to my attention that .38 spl. (especially in revolvers) will no longer hurt anyone you're shooting at (this is similar to the new evidence on 30-30 for deer). GunsAmerica.com has advised you continually purchase the latest super-semi-auto's in the latest whiz-bang calibers to ensure your safety. To ensure you are reliably informed there is an annual educational forum that intends to keep you up to date on the latest reliable gun and ammo recommendations, it's called the Shot Show.
 
.38 Special is always going to fall short when loaded to those old 19th century black powder pressure specifications. But we've had 88 years of loading .38 Special to a reasonable modern pressure of 35,000 psi where it works very well indeed.
Once you raise the pressure to 35,000psi you don't have a .38 special, it's a .357 magnum. .357 is still made, there's no reason to try to turn 38 special into it. If you want a 9mm or .357 there are no shortage of choices. Some people still want a 38 special, and the pressure limits are set where they are to maintain compatibility with the huge number of vintage guns still in use.
 
Once you raise the pressure to 35,000psi you don't have a .38 special, it's a .357 magnum. .357 is still made, there's no reason to try to turn 38 special into it. If you want a 9mm or .357 there are no shortage of choices. Some people still want a 38 special, and the pressure limits are set where they are to maintain compatibility with the huge number of vintage guns still in use.

A .38 Special loaded to higher pressures than +P+ spec is properly called a .38/44 and the first guns made for it were called .38/44 Heavy Duty. Smith and Wesson also produced the Model 20 and 23. It is a factory cartridge and factory guns. It is not a .357 Magnum, which was developed several years later. The .357 magnum has a longer case length and is not compatible with .38 Special chambers or .38/44 chambers. The .357 magnum generally requires a longer cartridge overall length to seat and crimp a bullet, unless you trim the case to make it exactly like a .38 Special case, whereby it effectively becomes a .38 Special or .38/44.

You wrote there is no reason to try to turn a .38 special into a .357. It's not clear whether this is in regard to the cartridge or the gun. There are good reasons to use .38 Special length cartridges loaded to high pressure in lieu of .357 cartridges. I mentioned them: longer .357 cases generally require the bullet to be seated farther away, which requires more powder to generate the same pressure. In short barrel guns that additional powder doesn't burn before the bullet base exits the muzzle. The pressure curve a .357 magnum cartridge can produce in a short-barrel gun is inferior to the curve possible from a .38/44 cartridge. Also, short-barrel guns must have short extractor rods, which won't fully eject a .357 case. That's two good reasons not to use .357 magnum in short barrel guns, and two good reasons to use .38/44 which is nothing more than .38 Special loaded to modern pressure levels.
 
A .38 Special loaded to higher pressures than +P+ spec is properly called a .38/44 and the first guns made for it were called .38/44 Heavy Duty. Smith and Wesson also produced the Model 20 and 23. It is a factory cartridge and factory guns. It is not a .357 Magnum, which was developed several years later. The .357 magnum has a longer case length and is not compatible with .38 Special chambers or .38/44 chambers. The .357 magnum generally requires a longer cartridge overall length to seat and crimp a bullet, unless you trim the case to make it exactly like a .38 Special case, whereby it effectively becomes a .38 Special or .38/44.
That's so it does not fit in 38 special chambers. You're advocating making it fit 38 special chambers, which is a bad idea considering the numbers of 38s that are not safe at those pressures. The fact that dangerous things like this were done in the past is no comment on their safety and viability in today's world.
You wrote there is no reason to try to turn a .38 special into a .357. It's not clear whether this is in regard to the cartridge or the gun. There are good reasons to use .38 Special length cartridges loaded to high pressure in lieu of .357 cartridges. I mentioned them: longer .357 cases generally require the bullet to be seated farther away, which requires more powder to generate the same pressure...
There is way too much case capacity in 38 special itself, not in .357. Once you raise the pressure to 35,000 psi the extra case capacity is useful. And make no mistake, if you use that capacity to house a full charge of W296 the velocity produced will exceed any 38 special load from a 1 7/8" barrel. But not by enough to make it productive to seek a middle ground between the 38 and .357 power level.

I've experimented extensively with shortening the 38 special case. I cut them off at .750" and load them as 38 short colts using 9mm dies. But I've still yet to find a load using this technique that shoots as well as my best full-length 38 special loads. The excess capacity 'problem' or lack thereof fully exists at the 38 special length, and doesn't get substantially worse at the .357 length. Both are way too large unless you load slow-burning powders that are going to go way past 20,000psi and are prickly about powder choice as a result. But none of that makes the existing guns chambered in 38 safe for higher pressures, regardless of how balistically ideal you find the notion.
 
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