Bit of a rant... Mouse Guns

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If someone tells me that can shoot a 44mag revolver very well. I believe them. I do not call them a liar or insinuate they are. I actually envy them.
Guess I've spent too much time in my eastern neighboring state. When I hear a claim that's sounds unbelievable " show me".
I'm ok with I shoot a 44 mag with hot loads pretty good, but you start telling me you shoot it fast(especially faster than something with a lot less recoil) I'm gonna wanna see it on a shot timer.

I hear a lot of people say "shooting fast" then when pressed they're guessing 1/2 a second.
 
We hear endlessly that there is no magic bullet and shot placement is king. This is the hard truth , a 22 lr in the face is way more effective than a 50 bmg to the foot, no one would argue that I figure. So I don't really get what were debating for.
 
It would be interesting to learn from someone who was knowledgeable about pistol selection and use in Europe some of the thoughts on why the .32 was used by police and military, and why the French, for so long, used a 7.65 cartridge with a longer case.

The 32 French Long. It has the power of the original 32 mag round when it was loaded for the H&R revolver. I had a 1935A MAS pistol in 32 French long and it took years for me to find a magazine for it. I never was able to find ammo. And I sure did want to shoot it too. I finally in frustration sold it at the GS for $50 just to get it out of my hair and my life.

In my attic I have a Guns & Ammo annual with an article by Robert T. Shimek (everyone remembers him right?) and he list guns of the military and police from around the world. It didn't list the reasons why they were chosen just what they used. The big surprise was one south American country (Argentina?) that issued a 22lr auto for the police. But the calibers chosen were all over the map.
 
My dad grew up in Argentina and I don't imagine those macho gauchos opting for .22LR. He was a concert violinist who once posed for a publicity photo holding his violin and his .458 magnum.

Are you sure it wasn't Chile?
 
There was a time when I almost bought a PSA .25 Auto. Would I have carried it ? Sure enough. It would have been all I had. I also would have prayed to God above that I never had to use it- not because of my lack of capability, but because there's a reason the .25 is nearing obsolescence. There are better rounds to do a better job. If it's all one has, or can carry.... so be it. But I'd prefer a revolver cartridge of the .38/.357 persuasion, or an auto of the .380/9mm/.45 persuasion. Preferably a snub .38/.357 or a 4" service .357 Magnum or .45 Colt.
 
I love the things, collect them, and actually on some occasions carry them, rarely as a primary, although in the hottest of summer weather in a low risk situation, I might have no more than a .38 in my pocket.

If the bullet from a .25, .32, or .38 is placed exactly right, whoever you hit will go over like he was hit by a Mac truck. Mostly, though, that's going to be hard to do, and if you do carry one of these little guns, consider it a prelude to a knife fight.

Small note: the quote about turning someone over your knee if he finds out you shot him with one of those things comes from not from Colonel Cooper but from Mark Twain in Roughing It. Cooper said, "A wine bottle well used is more effective," referring to the 25 ACP. Undoubtedly true, but I can nail somebody a whole lot further away with my little Colt 1908.

It could even be that a person with a gut full of .25 ACPs will decline the knife fight.

The world is a better place with a twelve gauge in hand. Failing that, anybody's .44 or .45 is a nice thing to have. I won't promise if somebody tries to lay hands on me and the only thing I have is a .25 ACP that they won't win, but it's going to be a Pyrrhic victory.
 
Guess I've spent too much time in my eastern neighboring state. When I hear a claim that's sounds unbelievable " show me".
I'm ok with I shoot a 44 mag with hot loads pretty good, but you start telling me you shoot it fast(especially faster than something with a lot less recoil) I'm gonna wanna see it on a shot timer.

I hear a lot of people say "shooting fast" then when pressed they're guessing 1/2 a second.

I hear someone say they can shoot a 44.mag well, Usually I understand them to mean they shoot them often and have a keen interest in them. Do not care to judge them or want to see them and time them. I knew a guy that told me he could do well with a Desert Eagle 500. Later went to the range with him. Not that fast, (I always have a timer in my range bag but did not take it out or time him) but he sure could draw and hit some great groups at 25 yds. I tried and can only say I did not draw, just took my time and actually hit the paper target. I say actually hit the target, Meaning I did not miss the thing entirely but close.
I do not underestimate any man or woman when it comes to their specialty. I have seen many guys do wonders with a small Snub nose.
I ran competitively all my life, coach competitive runners. I learned from a early age not to underestimate any competitor. Some guy that looks like he is struggling the whole race and then unleashes a fast 1/4 mile sprint to the finish line can surprise the hell out of you. Yet, that was his specialty. He took his skills that he did have and honed them. Some guys and girls run 100 meters, some excel at 5k,10k and some at the Marathon. My favorite race and the one I trained for was the 5k. And I ran a whole lot of miles to get good at that race. Usually twice a day. People would typically think you would not have to train as hard as a marathon. But in many ways actually had to train harder or at least train as hard with but with different skill sets. More anaerobic vs aerobic. Not sure you can understand the analogy, but that is the only thing I can relate to.
 
My dad grew up in Argentina and I don't imagine those macho gauchos opting for .22LR. He was a concert violinist who once posed for a publicity photo holding his violin and his .458 magnum.

Are you sure it wasn't Chile?

Great story. And look at my post I put a question mark because we are using my memory here. And my memory is like a steel trap. An old rusty one that doesn't work all that well anymore.:uhoh: And I said cops not cowboys. But I would love to see that picture if you can post it. If I make it up in the attic any time soon I will get that article and check to see if I am correct. I probably am not. But it was a good read. Too bad we can't post old articles like that. Especially since the publishing company is long gone.

And the next time I pose for a photo I am going to hold up my Blackhawk 44 mag and have my G&L SC3 slung on my shoulder and my foot up on my brand new Fender Delux DeVille amp. What a sight I will make...:neener:
 
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This whole thread will either Peter our or get locked due to the nature of the arguers more than the truth of the subject, but here I go. The first gun I carried once I got my ccp was a jetfire 88. It was a “sale” from a friend. I was looking to try a few things he needed a lil cash so we traded my fifty bucks for his 25. It was always understood I would sell it back when he so desired. The gun in question had already saved his life once. Two thugs tried to rob him with a crow bar. They hit his head which led to a lifetime knot btw. He produced the pistol and shot both. One got away. Later to be found at the hospital having the bullet removed. The other was struck in the femoral artery and he had to clutch his own wound and save the life of the idiot who clubbed him. The police and judge both figured based on caliber his intent was not murder and he didn’t go to jail for interstate travel with a weapon, which being a trucker is dubious at best. May be different now but this was then. I knew it was very small. But I’m the need to be comfortable and keep the tool hidden it thrives. I will say I popped a squirrel off the side of a tree with it at twenty feet to see if I could. The tree rat knew he was shot so he fell over and gave up. I understand size is a thing too. But I must admit after he got his back I went and found a wee lil beretta of my own. Both an 88 and a 3032 both of which have proven to be the only pistols I shoot well with a three finger grip. I don’t want to be shot by anything. In dress pants you can still hide a mouse. But be aware of what it can and cannot do. If I’m carrying a large deposit or going into a bad place for a reason I’m bringing a compact or bigger. But for running or going to the store for milk I feel better to have something than nothing.
 
After watching this thread develop today I decided if I ever own a mouse gun I will never discuss my ownership of said weapon publicly. In fact I wouldn't even admit to a .380. Used to be we only directed this level of hate at plastic guns. Times have sure changed. Imagine the heat a polymer .25acp would draw. Lookout!
 
After watching this thread develop today I decided if I ever own a mouse gun I will never discuss my ownership of said weapon publicly. In fact I wouldn't even admit to a .380. Used to be we only directed this level of hate at plastic guns. Times have sure changed. Imagine the heat a polymer .25acp would draw. Lookout!

Sadly you are right. I think it has gotten to this point.
 
Great story Blkhrt13. You have hit on exactly what these guns are for. It sort of makes you wonder if Reginald Denny might not be in better shape today if he would have just had a mouse gun on him way back in 1992.

Reginald Denny was the truck driver drug out of his truck and hit in the head with a brick and kicked in the L.A riots after the Rodney King verdict in 1992 just in case you didn't remember.
 
Yeah I
Great story Blkhrt13. You have hit on exactly what these guns are for. It sort of makes you wonder if Reginald Denny might not be in better shape today if he would have just had a mouse gun on him way back in 1992.

Reginald Denny was the truck driver drug out of his truck and hit in the head with a brick and kicked in the L.A riots after the Rodney King verdict in 1992 just in case you didn't remember.
bet after shooting the first few to grab at him they would have left him be even if he didn’t kill anyone off.
 
One last comment. My friend lost his Rig which was paid for and his house to the lawyers who sued on begalf of the two guys who tried to end him with a crowbar. He also faced a civil suit for loss of income filed by the wife of the guy who caught a bullet in his leg. Two years in court will break a working man. Never mind that he was just defending himself. One thing in his favor was the small size of his gun. How many of us think about the aftermath in those terms?
 
After watching this thread develop today I decided if I ever own a mouse gun I will never discuss my ownership of said weapon publicly. In fact I wouldn't even admit to a .380. Used to be we only directed this level of hate at plastic guns. Times have sure changed. Imagine the heat a polymer .25acp would draw. Lookout!

I believe Taurus used to make or still makes a TP25 that had a poly frame and it held one more round than the 22lr version. Right now I have the hots for one of the new Ruger LCP 22lr guns and if I get one you can bet I'm gonna tell everybody. If you don't like it you have a problem, not me.:evil:
 
How many of us think about the aftermath in those terms?

I remember this being mentioned in some of the gunzines and it was stated that even with a justified shooting you may be looking at a $40,000 legal fee bill. And that was 2-3 decades ago. At least now in Tx if you do a stand your ground shooting and the state decides you were within your rights you cannot be sued in civil court.
 
I hear someone say they can shoot a 44.mag well, Usually I understand them to mean they shoot them often and have a keen interest in them. Do not care to judge them or want to see them and time them. I knew a guy that told me he could do well with a Desert Eagle 500. Later went to the range with him. Not that fast, (I always have a timer in my range bag but did not take it out or time him) but he sure could draw and hit some great groups at 25 yds. I tried and can only say I did not draw, just took my time and actually hit the paper target. I say actually hit the target, Meaning I did not miss the thing entirely but close.
I do not underestimate any man or woman when it comes to their specialty. I have seen many guys do wonders with a small Snub nose.
I ran competitively all my life, coach competitive runners. I learned from a early age not to underestimate any competitor. Some guy that looks like he is struggling the whole race and then unleashes a fast 1/4 mile sprint to the finish line can surprise the hell out of you. Yet, that was his specialty. He took his skills that he did have and honed them. Some guys and girls run 100 meters, some excel at 5k,10k and some at the Marathon. My favorite race and the one I trained for was the 5k. And I ran a whole lot of miles to get good at that race. Usually twice a day. People would typically think you would not have to train as hard as a marathon. But in many ways actually had to train harder or at least train as hard with but with different skill sets. More anaerobic vs aerobic. Not sure you can understand the analogy, but that is the only thing I can relate to.
OK let me make this clear I don't care what YOU do when someone else makes a claim. I'm seeing what YOU do when YOUR claim is questioned.
So far all you've done is deflect and make a ad hominem attacking mine and AK103K's character for questioning your claim.
So now I'm just going to call bovine feces. And for the record I've ran in high school and am a pretty accomplished juggler I'm calling BS on the juggling too ya didn't learn to juggle large objects first.
 
There was an FBI study years ago that documented the number of LE that were shot by criminals with 22, 25, 32 caliber pistols--many fatally and the numbers were quite surprising. I had the link somewhere but can't find it.

M
 
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And that is the dumbest and most annoying hyperbolic statement that mouse gun proponents always say. If you say something like that, then I ignore whatever else you have to say, because it's probably just as ridiculous and illogical.
Yeah, kind of like the stupid ramblings of internet lore of shooting someone with a .25 it will only pizz him off and he'll hurt you even more. Both statements are equally stupid. That's why we say it because it's always in response to some stupid statement of how a .25ACP is nothing more than a BB gun.
 
I believe Taurus used to make or still makes a TP25 that had a poly frame and it held one more round than the 22lr version. Right now I have the hots for one of the new Ruger LCP 22lr guns and if I get one you can bet I'm gonna tell everybody. If you don't like it you have a problem, not me.:evil:

Lol. Not a big fan of little guns that aren't derringers but I'm even less a fan of telling people what gun to have and hold. They all have a place, well, mostly.

I'm rooting for a Glock in .25acp that holds about 75 rounds in a standard cap mag now. Glock perfection!
 
This is the hard truth , a 22 lr in the face is way more effective than a 50 bmg to the foot, no one would argue that I figure.
you would be wrong. While a 22 to the face may be more effective I've seen plenty of accounts of folks shot in the face that fought on and a 50BMG is probably going to remove a foot and cause a tremendous amount of blood loss.
 
After watching this thread develop today I decided if I ever own a mouse gun I will never discuss my ownership of said weapon publicly. In fact I wouldn't even admit to a .380. Used to be we only directed this level of hate at plastic guns. Times have sure changed. Imagine the heat a polymer .25acp would draw. Lookout!
I dont think its hate towards the guns, I like the well made little guns as much or even more than the next guy, and have a few. They are cool little guns.

Ive simply come to a conclusion about them that seems to be contrary to, and annoy those enamored with them.

I think its some seem to base their decisions on a different reality, and take offense, when some of us have come to a different conclusion, based on experience more than emotion. And I guess that also goes in both directions, just different reasons for the choices.

If you carry the gun as a back up, its really a moot point, for the most part. If you carry it as a primary, I personally think you need to look hard at the choice, and with a broader view. But thats just me. Of course, you do exactly what is best for you, for whatever reason.

Where Im having difficulty here with some of the reasoning, is based on my actual experiences with these guns, and with what I see as a more realistic view of things. And of course, I could be way off here too. But if Im carrying a gun for reasons serious enough to feel the need to carry it, I think it should be of a reasonable/realistic caliber, and something that I can shoot well with, across the board, and will get me through most anything I might encounter. Not just across some narrow scenarios, or those fights we always win in our minds.

If you choose one of the smaller guns as a primary, as I asked Jeb, do you use them in regular practice like you would a full size gun, and in all the same scenarios, things like matches, drills, etc? If not, why not?

If the gun of choice is a good choice, and you can shoot it well, do you not you shoot it well across all things, or do you only work on those things where you do shoot them well?

Thats where I found the smaller size and caliber guns were lacking. I replaced my Seecamp, with a Glock 26. I can shoot the 26 at pretty much all the same distance as my 17 (which is literally out to a hundred yards), and pretty much just as well. I can't do that with my Seecamp, NAA Minis, the LCP's, Baby Brownigs, etc, I used to have. If you say you can, more power to you, but dont get pissed if Im skeptical, and ask to see you do it.

Im in no way judging anyone, or saying Im the best at everything/anything or better than anyone, not even close, but I do know what I can realistically do, and do on a regular basis, and on demand.

I dont care how you figure whatever gun you love, is the best choice, its your choice, pick what you want. I got nothing in it. All Im saying is, be honest with yourself, more than anything else, and look long and hard at why you choose something and what you're using a basis.

Or, is all that just to deep? :D
 
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