Bit of a rant... Mouse Guns

[Zaydok Allen]

There’s a big difference between choosing to carry a mouse gun in a less than optimal cartridge because it’s the carry option that works for an individual or because they want a backup, and claiming that a mouse gun is an optimal decision. It’s two different things.

If we acknowledge what a mouse gun is, a compromise, we can move past words like optimal, best, most, ignore statistics, and just accept them as a choice some people make. It’s right for some people.

There’s no need to disparage other people’s choices, but rather we should disparage misinformation.

Mouse guns are a compromise, but that’s true of almost every carry gun. As long as we keep that in mind I don’t see a problem.

 

[Kleanbore]

Most people's priorities change, after they are shot.

That's particularly true after they realize that they have been shot.

My bet is they are the minority,

Are you willing to bet your life on it? Is "a minority" indicative of a prudent risk?

These facts, and their inherent portability, make "Mouse Guns" very viable, and effective carry guns.

"Facts", or conjecture?

How do you define an "effective carry gun"?

 

[M1key]

I owned a Beretta and really enjoyed it. I remember two stories from years ago. A woman came in to a police station and demanded they find her husband. Why they asked? She opened her coat and showed them 5 bullet holes in her chest and said, "The little creep shot me"! She later died in the hospital.

The other story involved a woman who shot her 6'4" 220 pound Marine Corp boyfriend who wouldn't take no for an answer and tried crawling into her bedroom through the window. She shot him once in the chest and he dropped dead immediately.

Effective? Well, eventually in one case and immediately in another.

Who was it that said, "...If you don't need a gun carry a 25 auto". (Bill Jordan?)

“Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody, and he finds out about it, he may be very angry with you.” – Col. Jeff Cooper

M

 

[Kleanbore]

would actually give a proper knife the edge here, and no pun intended.

If you think about the bullets being used, and the damage done, a good knife will often do a better job.

Perhaps--if the defender knows to not use it to stab, is trained in its use, and is sufficiently knowledgeable to understand which tendons to cut when , and how.

 

[Kleanbore]

EVERY RANGE I have ever been to specifically forbids this type of practice, IN WRITING,

That's true in almost all public ranges, but not in all clubs.

And in good defensive shooting training, it's part of the regimen.

Unfortunately, mouse guns are not permitted in many such classes.

It would be a good idea to find one where they are, if one wants to carry one, even as backup.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

While of distinctly limited utility it is certainly better than nothing!

Understand that "better than nothing" is the absolute lowest possible standard before something is detrimental to you. Body odor is better than nothing in self defense.

No, dude, you wouldn't. You'd be too busy dying or seeking medical attention, because I can shoot, and I'm going to put a few of these little pills into something you can't live without.

Several problems here. Dying or seeking medical attention may be true, but it may also come after killing you, first. That is a definite reality that can and has happened. Don't assume that just because you have hurt the attacker that he will run crying to mommy for a bandaid. If he does, that is a win for you, but don't rely on that happening.

It is naive to believe that you will have the success you intend, regardless of caliber. It is all of our wishes that this will happen, but the reality is that people often miss with one or more shots and in numerous instances, people have not had the opportunity to fire multiple shots because of things like the suspect grappling with them, suspect getting to cover and returning fire, innocent bystanders, gun malfunctions, etc.

If you want to carry small, that is your prerogative, but don't delude yourself into believing that is has the same capabilities of larger and more powerful calibers and will necessarily have the same impact on your assailant. Handguns in general are not great physiological defensive weapons and yours will be at the bottom of the list. From your description, you seem like you are heavily relying on psychological stops, which may be fine if you encounter a logically reasoning bad guy. Good luck with that. The reality is that it is a small gun with poor sights, poor ergonomics, that fires a small caliber that will punch tiny holes in a person to a fairly limited depth. It can be used effectively, but it will be exceptionally easy to use ineffectively.

Yes, I have shot one.

 

[Kleanbore]

She later died in the hospital....he dropped dead immediately.

Effective? Well, eventually in one case and immediately in another.

Do NOT confuse lethality with effectiveness.

Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody, and he finds out about it, he may be very angry with you.” – Col. Jeff Cooper

I think that's taking it too far. I have little use for the .25; I would not choose a .32 ACP either, but I would carry one if it were all I had available; and while the .380 is no longer favored for service use today, I don't discount it that much.

 

[whughett]

I would actually give a proper knife the edge here, and no pun intended.

If you think about the bullets being used, and the damage done, a good knife will often do a better job. They are also usually easier and quicker to get into action and dont jam or run out of ammo.

Respectfully disagree. Unless one is a back stabber or have been practicing throwing from a distance your not going to get close enough. It’s the old “bring a knife to a gun fight scenario”.

 

[bannockburn]

Many moons ago I occasionally carried a Beretta Jetfire if I was making a quick run up to the store for some milk or bread. Never gave it much thought at the time but later I felt that I probably needed to upgrade my cartridge choice and started toting along an AMT Backup .380 and then later a Colt Mustang, for those little quick trips. Still like having a .380 on me (have added a KelTec P3AT for the job as well), but would not chastise anyone for selecting a .22 or .25 for much the same reason that I use to do.

 

[AK103K]

Perhaps--if the defender knows to not use it to stab, is trained in its use, and is sufficiently knowledgeable to understand which tendons to cut when , and how.

Even with a stab, the damage done by the knife, is generally more than a 25. Think ice pick vs the damage done by a wider blade. And that just assumes a simple in and out stab.

And youre right, it pays to have some training and know what to target and when. You just dont go slashing and stabbing about.

And the same goes for the mouse gun, or any gun for that matter. Yet it seems many dont seem to understand that.

 

[M1key]

Quote: Do NOT confuse lethality with effectiveness.

I'm never confused Mr. Kleanbore. But thanks for the admonition anyway.

M

 

[Hartkopf]

I like the idea of a tiny gun for a woman jogging in a neighborhood. (357 Magnum is a bit heavy to run 3 miles with). The bad guy who thought she is an easy target will probably abort when he gets a couple holes poked in him.

Or the tiny gun for deep concealment or backup. If a full or mid size if comfortable then I can’t see a good reason to carry miniature.

 

[WestKentucky]

I won’t carry a .25 mainly because I don’t shoot the tiny guns well enough too because my hands are too large to properly hold most of them. .22lr is OK in a properly sized gun but it gets the stigma of being rimfire junk that will never work if you need it to. I disagree with that and have zero issues carrying a 22lr with Mexican quikshok ammo in it which was designed as defensive ammo and is super reliable (despite being 20 years old). So that puts me all the way up to a .32 and the problem with .32s is that there are very few .32 guns designed as such. Keltec p32 and the baby berettas are the only ones I can think of that were specifically designed as a .32 platform, so barring one of those you are essentially carrying a .380 pistol with intentionally weakened ammo, or a .25 gun that’s still too small to hold.

It’s more about the gun than the caliber. Always has been, always will be. Europeans would not have stuck with .32 for so long if it wasn’t effective in its role. Put a round in a properly designed and properly sized gun and it will work properly.

That said, I do know one man who was shot multiple times by a pissed off husband (yes, that scenario) point blank into his bare chest. Husband had a .25 and put 6 into the breastplate and the guy drove himself to the ER to get them removed. He knows he was lucky that nothing slipped through between the ribs. He will quickly tell you that he was in no mood to hang around for a reload.

 

[Kleanbore]

Even with a stab, the damage done by the knife, is generally more than a 25.

There is a high likelihood of fatality, but that does not begin to translate to an immediate physical stop.

And the same goes for the mouse gun, or any gun for that matter. Yet it seems many dont seem to understand that.

Screen fiction had led people to expect a one shot stop, and shooting water jugs has contributed to the wide-spread assumption that one hit anywhere with a .45 will do some important damage.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm never confused Mr. Kleanbore.

Really?

You said "Effective? Well, eventually in one case...". An eventual death is not effective when it comes to self defense.

 

[whughett]

I am loving this thread. Over in the Black powder forum a debate occasionally runs on the best percussion revolver to use.

 

[AK103K]

Respectfully disagree. Unless one is a back stabber or have been practicing throwing from a distance your not going to get close enough. It’s the old “bring a knife to a gun fight scenario”.

If back stabbing or throwing it (and who in their right mind throws their weapon away, unless in desperation?) gets it done, Im on it.

Just curious, but at what distances do you envision using your little guns and how? 7 yards, or 21 feet has been the Tueller standard for a long time now, and Ive recently read, that thats been expanded.

How fast can you have that gun in your hand and make good soild hits on a moving target? Assuming it wasnt already on top of you.

I normally carry a fixed blade knife and can access it a lot faster and easier than my deeper concealment handguns. At the distances most here seem to consider SD, if there were no cover or other way to deal with things that happen quickly, Id would close as quickly as I could and use that knife before I tried to clear that gun.

A smart person brings both gun and knife, and more, to any fight.

 

[Kleanbore]

How fast can you have that gun in your hand and make good solid hits on a moving target?

That's really the issue, when it comes to self defense with handgun drawn from concealment.

The limitations have to do with the gun and with the skills of the defender.

 

[entropy]

Most people's priorities change, after they are shot.

That's particularly true after they realize that they have been shot.

Let me tell you a story.....

Some years ago, when I was test firing a .30-30 Marlin I'd just repaired, half of the 170 gr. RN I fired sheared off on a piece of hardered steel plate that protected a light bulb in the test tunnel and came back and hit me in the forehead and stuck in the skin. I was not wearing a Spangenhelm like MTP in his avatar photo , and it 'stung a bit', similar to a tiger biting a leg off.

I was not hopped up on meth, (despite the rumors...) or booze or the euphoria some get from assaulting someone. Yes, it hurt like hell, but had I been in a fight, I would have been very capable of continuing for a while, albiet probably blinded in the left eye by the copious flow of blood that would have happened had I not applied pressure to the wound. (which hurt all the more, because the fragment was jagged.) I later calculated the weight of the fragment and approximate velocity and came up with about the ME of a .32 ACP. (Though with a lower BC, because the fragment was irregular shaped.) Often such rounds when hitting the scalp at such an angle enter under the skin and follow along the outside of the skull.
They did a quick CAT scan to be sure there were no bone fragments on the inside of the skull (solid as a rock there!) , threw four stitches into the skin, and handed me a bottle of Vicodin and said take a couple days off. I took one day off, and I didn't test fire guns in the test tube for a month.
The takeaway: I definitely would not want to get shot by a mouse gun, but OTOH, do not believe they are one-shot stoppers-no handgun can guarantee that. Keep shooting at vital targets repeatedly until they disengage. Col. Cooper was not entirely right with that statement, but he wasn't entirely wrong, either. For my uses, I consider .380 ACP a minimum.

 

[Dibbs]

That's particularly true after they realize that they have been shot.

Are you willing to bet your life on it? Is "a minority" indicative of a prudent risk?
Short answer, yes. I bet my life on it, every day. Others, who actually carry mouse guns, do, too. Your chances of being out and about,
AND being attacked (by which I mean pushed to the point of firearm SD) IF you avoid bad areas, do business during the day, and use SA,
are about as likely as hitting the Lottery and being hit by lightning, at the same time. At this point, I would be willing to CONJECTURE that
anyone being shot, in those circumstances would be more likely to think "****! I've been shot !" rather than "I'd rather DIE, than quit."
Most criminals aren't SEALs or Rangers, they're in it for an easy buck. And I don't live in Beirut.

"Facts", or conjecture?

How do you define an "effective carry gun"?

Not that anybody really cares what I think, but IMO, an "effective carry gun" is one which is well made, properly maintenanced, controllable at
"get off me" ranges, (and won't blow a hole in your leg,) which will not only help you keep your civility & SA up, but will also make it possible for you to have the confidence to go about your business, undeterred.

 

[AK103K]

There is a high likelihood of fatality, but that does not begin to translate to an immediate physical stop.

Nor do most handgun wounds. And people go on and on about it with more realistic rounds too.

I would say that if you insist on carrying any handgun, but especially the smaller caliber guns, you take the time to learn human anatomy, and what specifically you need to target, to hope to bring things to a fast conclusion. And work hard at being able to make that happen, and on demand.

Its hard enough with a more realistic hand gun and even a long gun. The easiest part with any of them, is just having it. The hardest part, is being effective with whatever it is you choose. And that gets exponentially harder, the less you work at it.

 

[crestoncowboy]

What kinda garb do you wear in that rare situation that you can only conceal a .25acp? Swim trunks?

That's funny. I own a number of the tip up Berettas and a couple small colts. The only time I ever carried one was running/jogging or lifeguarding at the coast....in trunks. It was a new (2000ish parkerized not blued) 21 A (22lr) not a 25. I kept it in the zippered pocket and it wasnt particularly valuable so I didnt worry about the salt or chlorine. It still works and looks as it should.

 

[Dibbs]

Let me tell you a story.....

Some years ago, when I was test firing a .30-30 Marlin I'd just repaired, half of the 170 gr. RN I fired sheared off on a piece of hardered steel plate that protected a light bulb in the test tunnel and came back and hit me in the forehead and stuck in the skin. I was not wearing a Spangenhelm like MTP in his avatar photo , and it 'stung a bit', similar to a tiger biting a leg off.

And look at what you did, after you were injured. Did you continue shooting, and then go on with your day, or did you immediately seek medical attention ?
My case in point.

 

[chicharrones]

I agree 100%
Those who belittle anyone that has or carries one of these should volunteer to be shot with one.

People that say that ought to reconsider the statement, lest they be challenged to volunteer to be shot by any firearm.

 

[mavracer]

No, dude, you wouldn't. You'd be too busy dying or seeking medical attention, because I can shoot, and I'm going to put a few of these little pills into something you can't live without.

It's gonna suck if while you're waiting for him to bleed out from tiny holes he puts a round in something you can't live without.