Bit of a rant... Mouse Guns

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Let's face it, a .25 auto is nobody's idea of a great combat handgun, and few people even regard it as an acceptable primary EDC. But I have encountered rare situations where my wife's Colt Junior (which she bought because it's adorable and fun to shoot) was the most reasonable compromise between carrying a gun and being unarmed. While of distinctly limited utility it is certainly better than nothing!

It chaps my posterior the way people react to these guns. Show one in almost any venue and some idjit will misquote Jeff Cooper (who really ought to have known better,) saying something to the effect of, 'If you ever shot me and I found out I'd be pissed!'

No, dude, you wouldn't. You'd be too busy dying or seeking medical attention, because I can shoot, and I'm going to put a few of these little pills into something you can't live without.

Yes, they're under-powered. Yes, there's nearly always a better choice. But these are not toys. Joke about it if you want, but people can, have and will be killed by these little guns. Let's all remember, these are for self defense; you're not trying top drop a Cape Buffalo. If you put a couple of these in a bad guy and he runs away, mission accomplished. I know I'm not going to stand around while someone shoots at me, even with a mouse-gun... and if they hit me I doubt I'm going to find it humorous!

End rant.

 

[Mizar]

I'll just open a beer, sit back and enjoy the comments that would follow...

 

[larryh1108]

I agree 100%
Those who belittle anyone that has or carries one of these should volunteer to be shot with one. Let's see if he gets pizzed or seeks cover.
Like MTP said above, it is a SD gun, not a run into battle gun. I am equally annoyed by those who say it's a useless round. I'm sure there are an awful lot of dead people who would say otherwise, given the chance.

 

[rskent]

First, it’s your choice, you are the only one that has to live with the consequences. Positive or negative. If it works for you, great. In fact, carry a 22 if it makes you feel secure.

Personally, I would like to have something that makes a bad guy do more than want to go to the hospital. I want to force him to stop and leave me alone. Right now!

 

[beeenbag]

SMH, if you like it carry it. It seems that most people that want to keep bringing this subject up are trying to validate it for themselves. It's getting pretty old.

 

[milemaker13]

SMH

What does SMH mean?

Pocket guns are a very effective way for people to carry at times that would otherwise be difficult.

 

[beeenbag]

What does SMH mean?

Pocket guns are a very effective way for people to carry at times that would otherwise be difficult.

Smack My Head

 

[Jeb Stuart]

The Reconquista is the longest recorded war in history, lasting about 744 years. I do not know when the Caliber War started, but have a feeling it will go on for many decades to come. Probably more battles have been fought more blood shed, more chaos in the Great Caliber War than the Reconquista, but no data yet to document this. A lot of turmoil going on in the Gun World with multiple wars from all directions. Caliber wars, trigger wars, bore axis wars, round count wars, holster wars, Contract Wars,brand wars,training wars and on and on and on. It has become a bloody mess.

 

[fireside44]

What kinda garb do you wear in that rare situation that you can only conceal a .25acp? Swim trunks?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

A 22lr can kill.

Any gun is better than no gun. I agree Michael. Hyperbole leads to internet myths and misconceptions by the inexperienced.

 

[Mosin77]

Agree 100%.

Americans have a ridiculous “cowboy complex” when it comes to carry guns. The odds that you’ll have to use your gun are, what, 2500 to 1? 5,000 to 1? 10,000 to 1? And of those situations, approximately 90% can be defused simply by brandishing a gun. That leaves 10% of the time when shots might be fired. And with even the smallest calibers, the odds of successfully defending yourself are pretty good, meaning that it’s incredibly unlikely you’ll need the extra mags, or the New York reload, or the ballistic advantage of a .45/.357 Sig/10mm/etc.

And the gun you have all the time absolutely trumps the cannon you left at home. Or the cannon you can’t get more than one hit with (if that.) A .25 or .32 has the virtue of exceptionally mild recoil, allowing a shooter with even a modicum of practice to put a lot of accurate holes in something in a short amount of time.

Obviously if you are a professional soldier in a war zone, live in a not-so-awesome neighborhood, have a dangerous enemy, are a cop, own a jewelry store, or manage a convenience store in the bad part of town, it makes sense to tool up accordingly, but for the average joe, it’s simply not necessary, and possibly detrimental to preparedness. The .25 or .32 is fun to shoot. How much fun is your titanium .357? Fun means you want to practice with it. Practice means you can probably hit what you’re aiming at under stress.

There’s a lot to be said for an old-school mouse gun, IMO.

 

[Trey Veston]

I agree 100%
Those who belittle anyone that has or carries one of these should volunteer to be shot with one.

And that is the dumbest and most annoying hyperbolic statement that mouse gun proponents always say. If you say something like that, then I ignore whatever else you have to say, because it's probably just as ridiculous and illogical.

 

[barnetmill]

larryh1108 said: ↑
I agree 100%
Those who belittle anyone that has or carries one of these should volunteer to be shot with one.

And that is the dumbest and most annoying hyperbolic statement that mouse gun proponents always say. If you say something like that, then I ignore whatever else you have to say, because it's probably just as ridiculous and illogical.

LOL for sure
Really why should anyone rant over such things.

Be always sure you're right — THEN GO AHEAD! David Crockett

End of discussion.
Why would you care what people might say about your choices for concealed weapons. It is concealed, right.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

And that is the dumbest and most annoying hyperbolic statement that mouse gun proponents always say. If you say something like that, then I ignore whatever else you have to say, because it's probably just as ridiculous and illogical.

There are a lot of annoying comments on the internet. Not just related to mouse guns. The Moor is better is equally annoying, Bigger is better, the safest trigger is the one between your ears and on and on.
I guess you also ignore any comment like these as well. Usually People that do not like the comment above, are the first ones to say Bigger is better and want want to put down the smaller caliber. Obviously, you decided to go on the attack. Again your comment is just a example of the caliber war.

 

[barnetmill]

The Reconquista is the longest recorded war in history, lasting about 744 years. I do not know when the Caliber War started, but have a feeling it will go on for many decades to come. Probably more battles have been fought more blood shed, more chaos in the Great Caliber War than the Reconquista, but no data yet to document this. A lot of turmoil going on in the Gun World with multiple wars from all directions. Caliber wars, trigger wars, bore axis wars, round count wars, holster wars, Contract Wars,brand wars,training wars and on and on and on. It has become a bloody mess.

A bit of a bunny trail, but for the west the reconquista began:

The Battle of Tours (10 October 732), also called the Battle of Poitiers and, by Arab sources, the ..... It produced Charles Martel, the soldier who turned the Arabs back at Tours

It then for Iberia lasted until 1492

The kingdom of Granada falls to the Christian forces of King Ferdinand V and Queen Isabella I, and the Moors lose their last foothold in Spain. ... On January 2, 1492, King Boabdil surrendered Granada to the Spanish forces, and in 1502 the Spanish crown ordered all Muslims forcibly converted to Christianity.

 

[milemaker13]

What kinda garb do you wear in that rare situation that you can only conceal a .25acp? Swim trunks?

Maybe. But more often its a plain white tee that can easily ride up over the grip when bending down or standing in line. I'm forever chasing my toddler around in public so it can be difficult to control such 'wardrobe malfunctions', lol. Wearing an over shirt or similar garment isnt an option because I get too hot.

 

[AK103K]

I think most who carry them are comforted in knowing they have a gun of some sort, and thats about as far as it goes.

Will they work? Yea, sure, maybe, if you get lucky.

How many people at the range, or where you shoot, do you ever see anyone practicing with one from how they carry it, and shooting in any kind of realistic manner with one? How many do you see practicing at all, in any manner?

At best, these are third line, last ditch back ups that you hope you never need or get down to. Anyone who carries one as a primary needs to rethink a few things.

Some are cool, well made guns, and more pieces of gun art than anything else. Ive owned a bunch of them over the years, and until better things came along, carried a few as back ups. These days, with whats available, with both gun and holsters, there no need to limit yourself.

Like the old Zippo I throw in my pocket every day, I may throw my old Seecamp or a NAA mini in a pocket now and then. I havent smoked in decades, but you should always have fire on you, and it comes in handy.

Mostly with the little guns, its just out of nostalgia, or to show someone something cool. It may be loaded, but its not realistic, anywhere short of a panic.

 

[<*(((><]

To each his own, but when I carry my .380 (which is as little as possible) I know that I’ve compromised greatly on energy, penetration and expansion. I’m not fooling anyone. And it’s easy to say someone will turn and run when they get shot a few times with a “mousegun” or you just might find you come across someone who is inebriated with something in which they don’t feel until the blood or oxygen withers their brain activity, which is enough time for them to cause considerable pain.

By all means carry a .25 ACP, it’s your choice and it certainly is better than a sharp stick or nothing. But I’ve seen enough video and accounts of self-defense shootings to know that getting shot doesn’t end the threat in all circumstances.

One can all play the statistics game of % chance of needing a firearm X the % chance of needing to fire X the % chance of needing more than 2-3 rounds. If I lived by that I wouldn’t carry at all.

I carry what I consider to be the best balance of unobtrusiveness combined with the ability to stop the threat. Threats come in all shapes and sizes:

-200lb. Men on PCP
-Single mugger at a gas station
-Multiple attackers surrounding ones car
-Road rage attackers
-Pyschos bent on evil coming into churches, theatres, malls, etc
-Armed muggers

I’m not going to carry for the least common denominator, and hope that what I carry is enough. If I’m going to train, take the effort to plan for carrying, etc then it’s going to be a cartridge that has a significant amount of street experience (9mm, .40, .357, .38, .45, etc).

I’m in no way attacking your personal choice in believing that .25 ACP is plenty. But responding to your thread in which you called everyone else out on their lack of trust of mouseguns. I don’t really care what people carry, that’s their personal choice but if a friend who I cared about asked me what they should consider for a carry weapon, you can bet I’m not going to say .25 ACP.

It would be a disservice to not provide the other side of the story that mouseguns are enough. But I’m not getting dragged further into the beating of a dead horse.

Edit: Just added a video test and some pictures of 25ACP performance 50gr @950fps



2 Layers of denim 10-11” of penetration ~1” wide channel


2 FMJ’s and 3 HP’s


HP Expansion or lack there of

 

[Kleanbore]

The odds that you’ll have to use your gun are, what, 2500 to 1? 5,000 to 1? 10,000 to 1?

Whether those numbers are valid or not, they are completely irrelevant to what might be needed should the occasion arise.

A .25 or .32 has the virtue of exceptionally mild recoil, allowing a shooter with even a modicum of practice to put a lot of accurate holes in something in a short amount of time.

They do not appear to me to be very conducive to getting into action in a short amount of time.

but for the average joe, it’s simply not necessary,

Is any firearm "necessary for the "average joe", in your mind?

and possibly detrimental to preparedness

How on Earth might that be?

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Lol, here we go again.

 

[whughett]

Three small weapons. Either is more deadly than pepper spray, a knife or tire iron. I now carry the Ruger, I’d actually preferred the Jennings for weight and size, it just doesn’t function as reliable as the others.

 

[Dibbs]

I agree 100%
Those who belittle anyone that has or carries one of these should volunteer to be shot with one. Let's see if he gets pizzed or seeks cover.
Like MTP said above, it is a SD gun, not a run into battle gun. I am equally annoyed by those who say it's a useless round. I'm sure there are an awful lot of dead people who would say otherwise, given the chance.

Most people's priorities change, after they are shot. If they want to live, they are seeking medical attention. YES, there are crazies and fanatics who will just
"grin, and keep on coming". My bet is they are the minority, inside the overall minority of those who will force you to use a SD firearm, in the first place.

The list of "People Who Got Shot, Ignored It, and Lived" doesn't read like an LA phone book. These facts, and their inherent portability, make
"Mouse Guns" very viable, and effective carry guns.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

There is no reason to be feel inadequate, ashamed or embarrassed about choosing a .25 or similar dainty gun as a primary EDC.
If that is your preference I say, You Go Girl. It's more effective than your purse

 

[AK103K]

View attachment 883687 Three small weapons. Either is more deadly than pepper spray, a knife or tire iron. I now carry the Ruger, I’d actually preferred the Jennings for weight and size, it just doesn’t function as reliable as the others.

I would actually give a proper knife the edge here, and no pun intended.

If you think about the bullets being used, and the damage done, a good knife will often do a better job. They are also usually easier and quicker to get into action and dont jam or run out of ammo.

 

[Dibbs]

How many people at the range, or where you shoot, do you ever see anyone practicing with one from how they carry it, and shooting in any kind of realistic manner with one? How many do you see practicing at all, in any manner?

You know of a public range which will let you practice, in this manner ? EVERY RANGE I have ever been to specifically forbids this type of practice, IN WRITING,
and is enforced by a platoon of coffee saturated RSOs.