"Cat sneeze" 357/38 loads.

Lots of cowboy action shooters load .38 Special for pistol and rifle. Mostly using a lighter bullet than a 158.

Lots of variables affect sound. For example Titegroup makes for a sharper report than other fast powders like Clays, Red Dot or Bullseye.

Found an article about this. Not tried any of it yet though.

http://shilohtv.com/?p=3142#more-3142

I just had to try this out for myself. I started with .38 Special cases, small pistol primers, and Bullseye powder with a coated ACME 158 gr blunt nose bullet.

I started at the min charge for Bullseye in my Cast Bullet Handbook #4 which was 3.0 gr, and worked down .25 gr at a time to 2.0 gr out of my Henry Big Boy with a 20” barrel.

The 3.0 gr was quiet, but you could still tell it was close to a factory load. Each load was quieter than the last, and by the time I got to 2.0 gr, it was truly about the same as my Marlin 60 with subsonic ammo. I honestly couldn’t tell a difference between 2.0 and 2.25 gr, and even though all 5 of each load functioned fine and hit paper, I would go with the 2.25 gr just to give a little edge to getting the bullet out of the end of the barrel.

Bullseye was the only powder I tried, but Bullseye and Titegroup are almost twins, so I would think you could work down with it about the same. My cases were burned and dirty after I finished. I assume that is because there wasn’t enough pressure to expand and seal the brass completely against the hot gas.

Obturation said:

Great! Thanks for the rapid test. I'm stuck home with a couple toddlers and can't shoot in my yard so my testing consists of making a bunch of different loads and testing when I can. I have titegroup, think I should try it or pick up some bullseye?
I'm still going to do some trail boss loads too and I'll report when I get to shoot.

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I think I have a little Titegroup left. I’ll try to make some up tomorrow and test them if it Isn’t raining.

Obturation said:

Hey all,
Hope everyone's doing well.
Looking for load suggestions for quietest possible 357/ 38 loads for use in a rifle. I understand the risk of squid and that accuracy may suffer. I've seen discussion of using a couple grains of fast burning powder and downloading until you stick a bullet in the barrel and going up just a smidge from there. I can do that but I was hoping someone had a decent starting point. I'm not looking for reduced recoil - I use trail boss regularly and understand it's uses well but I don't consider it quiet although it's certainly not as loud as most loads. I live in Illinois and supressors are not legal through any channels available to me, I'm wanting a load for use at a friend's house where shooting is legal but he does have neighbors that don't appreciate the noise and I'd like a plinking load that won't offend. We do shoot everything out there but there's a time when it's best to keep it low key. I understand also that nothing will be as quiet as a suppressed rifle shooting subsonics but a subsonic with low pressure will be better than most. I prefer to use 357 brass but I have 38 brass as well if you think that may help. Looking to use either 158 grain swc or 180 grain go (both cast).
I've seen guys use a round ball and the reduced weight helps lower pressure but I'd like to use components I usually use. Possibly appropriate powders I have on hand are : unique, titegroup & clays - I'm willing to get another powder just for this use if required.
Thanks for any advice.

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I like cast 158 gr. Semi wadcutters over 3.5 gr. of trailboss in 38 brass. Haven't tried it in 357 brass but out of my 20" Henry those 38s are a whisper.

2.3gr trail boss and a 148gr wadcutter are my plinker in my 38s

Just out of curiosity,,,

Is a Cat Sneeze above or below a Mouse Fart?

Aarond

.

aarondhgraham said:

Just out of curiosity,,,

Is a Cat Sneeze above or below a Mouse Fart?

Aarond

.

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Where does bunny fart rank too?

Obturation said:

Great! Thanks for the rapid test. I'm stuck home with a couple toddlers and can't shoot in my yard so my testing consists of making a bunch of different loads and testing when I can. I have titegroup, think I should try it or pick up some bullseye?
I'm still going to do some trail boss loads too and I'll report when I get to shoot.

Click to expand...

I made up 10 test rounds today with the same setup and Titegroup, but just slightly different numbers because of the difference in density: 3.0, 2.5, 2.3, and 2.0 gr.
The Titegroup (to my ears) was just a little louder, but that could be for any number of reasons; atmospheric conditions, differences in powder drop accuracy, lot variances, etc... They all chambered and fired perfectly. I didn’t chrono them, but the Titegroup seemed to make more grass fly into the air. Maybe they were just a little faster.

I think you should start with Titegroup since you already have it. Trail Boss would probably also work just fine, but I’d be careful going much below published minimums with it. Just start on the published minimum for your powder choice and work down to where you are happy, and have good functionality. Your gun may be just a little different than mine. I kinda prefer Bullseye to Titegroup for .38 Special because it’s a little less dense, but that’s just me.

Happy experimenting, and stay safe.

Ditto on the pellet gun, many of them are quiet enough to shoot out doors and often only require a much weaker backstop then firearms do.

H

aarondhgraham said:

Just out of curiosity,,,

Is a Cat Sneeze above or below a Mouse Fart?

Aarond

.

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Has to be bore than a mouse fart.

I prefer WST to TG or BE. WST burns cleaner, more case fill, east to see. TG runs hot compared to BE and WST. I use 4.8gr of WST behind MBC #1 or #2 BE bullets. Yield around 700 fps out of my 6" Python.

I would not use Trail Boss for this application. For light loads you normally want to use a fast burning powder.

Blue68f100 said:

I prefer WST to TG or BE. WST burns cleaner, more case fill, east to see. TG runs hot compared to BE and WST. I use 4.8gr of WST behind MBC #1 or #2 BE bullets. Yield around 700 fps out of my 6" Python.

I would not use Trail Boss for this application. For light loads you normally want to use a fast burning powder.

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I have to disagree Trail Boss is a pretty good fit to the OP goals if a bit expensive. Trailboss is a fairly fast burning powder, it sits right next to WST on most burn charts. It is simply milled to have a very low bulk density to make it fill up the cases. Any of these fast burning powder are going to work for what OP wants. Titegroup would work well but will be dirty at these low pressures. This is one advantage of Trail Boss is its fairly clean at these low pressures.

Since suppressors are not legal and the OP seems to suggest that Trailboss is not quiet enough the only way your going to get much quieter is going to use an even faster burning powder but that is going to have diminishing returns on sound.

I would try Alliant Red Dot, it is in the top 10 of most burn rate charts and Alliant has published data for using Red Dot under 158gr 38 Special. If you got money to burn then maybe look at Vihtavuori N310.

But I think that even with these super fast powders there is still going to be a decent bang from a short barrel. Without a suppressor the best you can do is find the longest barrel you can find for shooting these "quite" rounds through. The longer the barrel the lower the "uncorking" pressure is going to be and the quieter it will be.

Something else you might consider is building some sort of portable enclosure that could possibly mitigate the report.
I don't have any experience in this area; just a thought that popped into my head while I was reading the responses to the OP.

I would think, and I’m just spitballing here, that out of a rifle barrel, the “fastness” of the powder can be extended greatly to include slower pistol powders at reduced amounts. There’s a lot more room in an 18-20” barrel for that powder to burn up than there is in a 4-6” barrel. The trick is to match the powder, and the amount you use to what works in your gun. There aren’t any load manuals out there that will give data for this. It might well be that a reduced load of Unique, 231, or even 2400 might make a good match for quiet loads in the right amounts in a given rifle. The problem is that it will take a lot of experimenting with these powders, and I’m not sure most of us have the patience. I don’t think I do anyway.

A Remington 22 Fieldmaster loaded with 22 short CB caps is a lot of fun and supper quite just saying

Mr_Flintstone said:

I would think, and I’m just spitballing here, that out of a rifle barrel, the “fastness” of the powder can be extended greatly to include slower pistol powders at reduced amounts. There’s a lot more room in an 18-20” barrel for that powder to burn up than there is in a 4-6” barrel. The trick is to match the powder, and the amount you use to what works in your gun. There aren’t any load manuals out there that will give data for this. It might well be that a reduced load of Unique, 231, or even 2400 might make a good match for quiet loads in the right amounts in a given rifle. The problem is that it will take a lot of experimenting with these powders, and I’m not sure most of us have the patience. I don’t think I do anyway.

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Fast powder is going to be quieter especially as the barrel gets longer. This is where Quickload really starts to come into its own if your into this level of playing.

Please don't use this data it si just spit-balling at this point without some more ground work laid but it should be close enough to illustrate the point.

158gr jacketed bullet pushed by 4.90 gr of 2400 results in 700 fps from a 16 inch barrel.
158gr jacketed bullet pushed by 1.91 gr of Red Dot results in 700 fps from a 16-inch barrel.
(I suspect both loads might stick a bullet especially the Red Dot load.)

But here is why the faster powder is quieter, Muzzle exit pressure.

2400 peak pressure 5015 psi
2400 muzzle pressure: 627 psi

Red Dot peak pressure: 5713 psi
Red Dot muzzle pressure: 413 psi

The fast powder gets all the work done close to the chamber giving more time to let gases expand and reducing muzzle exit pressure and thus sound. The Red Dot load has 2/3 rd the muzzle exit pressure of the 2400 load.

Interestingly 2.65 gr of Trail Boss should achieve 700 fps with a peak pressure of 6096 psi and a muzzle exit pressure of only 393 psi. The bulky nature of Trailboss occupies more case volume initially, causing a faster rise in pressure making it reach a higher peak pressure than the faster burning Red Dot.

ETA: one more warning. I don't completely trust Quickloads at these low pressures, at least not without a fair amount of testing before hand. So please don't take these as absolutes numbers but simple as a good example of how burn rate and bulk densities can change the peak and muzzle exit pressures.

My reasonably quiet, cat fart, 357 Trailboss load is a 158gr RNFP over 3.7gr of TB. Very accurate in my 6" 686 and pretty accurate in my Henry.

LUCKYDAWG13 said:

A Remington 22 Fieldmaster loaded with 22 short CB caps is a lot of fun and supper quite just saying

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I did similar with CCI CB Longs in an old Winchester 67. That 27.5-inch barrel really makes an already quiet round super quiet. That combination is more quiet than my spring air rifle.