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"Cat sneeze" 357/38 loads.

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Obturation, May 23, 2020.

  1. Obturation
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    Obturation Contributing Member

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    Hey all,
    Hope everyone's doing well.
    Looking for load suggestions for quietest possible 357/ 38 loads for use in a rifle. I understand the risk of squid and that accuracy may suffer. I've seen discussion of using a couple grains of fast burning powder and downloading until you stick a bullet in the barrel and going up just a smidge from there. I can do that but I was hoping someone had a decent starting point. I'm not looking for reduced recoil - I use trail boss regularly and understand it's uses well but I don't consider it quiet although it's certainly not as loud as most loads. I live in Illinois and supressors are not legal through any channels available to me, I'm wanting a load for use at a friend's house where shooting is legal but he does have neighbors that don't appreciate the noise and I'd like a plinking load that won't offend. We do shoot everything out there but there's a time when it's best to keep it low key. I understand also that nothing will be as quiet as a suppressed rifle shooting subsonics but a subsonic with low pressure will be better than most. I prefer to use 357 brass but I have 38 brass as well if you think that may help. Looking to use either 158 grain swc or 180 grain go (both cast).
    I've seen guys use a round ball and the reduced weight helps lower pressure but I'd like to use components I usually use. Possibly appropriate powders I have on hand are : unique, titegroup & clays - I'm willing to get another powder just for this use if required.
    Thanks for any advice.
     
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  2. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Cast 158s and WST or Competition. 3.8 to 4.0 Grs
     
  3. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    I am using 2 grains of Bullseye with a 158 grain LSWC in the rifle but it is still loudish. FYI 1.6 grains will sometimes stick in the barrel but is lots quieter. Enlarging the flash hole or using magnum rifle primers might help but I never tried those things. Take care when trying these.
    Forgot to add 38 SPL brass was used.
     
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  4. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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  5. Waterboy3313

    Waterboy3313 Member

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    This is something I've thought about as well in the past but for a pistol rather than a rifle. Some of the research I have done has made me not try doing this. I've gone as a low as 2.8 gr of titegroup in 158 gr LCSWC just as an experiment out of a snubbie. Still loud for what it is. If your goal was the same as mine you might invest in a pellet gun. Even some of those can be quite loud.
     
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  6. Obturation
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    Obturation Contributing Member

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  7. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    A 357 case is going to reduce the pressure relative to that 1/2cc (2.1gr) load of TrailBoss in a 38 case/158gr RN bullet..
    Although normal math would say increase powder 20%, I'd kick it up to a full 0.7cc (2.9gr)/chronograph/make sure it makes it out of the barrel 1st several shots.

    No position sensitivity "effectively"
    Quieter than a standard velocity 22 out of that 20" barrel
     
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  8. LUCKYDAWG13

    LUCKYDAWG13 Member

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    I also shoot at a friends house sounds like the same setup It might even be the same guys house LOL I started using Bullseye
    38 spl loads in 357 brass but this was out of a pistol
     
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  9. Obturation
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    Obturation Contributing Member

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    I think a lot of Illinois folks are in the same boat, I live in mchenry right on the edge of unincorporated farm land and I can hear neighbors less than a mile away shooting sometimes but I've never figured out who (or I'd be over there with them), I have space that I could safely shoot with a proper backstop but sadly it isn't legal. My buddy lives out west on 72 and has close neighbors but they're grumpy and have called the police before who will ask him politely to respect his neighbors but there really isn't anything illegal about shooting there. So my solution is to try to make some plinking loads that won't stir the pot. I've danced around with the super colibris and other 22 subsonics but either because of the bullet weight or velocity are just not very accurate except out of only 1 rifle. So if I can get this load right it should eliminate any need to tinker with the light weight 22 subs anymore, which would be nice. It would be even better if they would allow supressors but that's not likely (especially with old JB in office) .
    I'm going to try the trailboss load @MEHavey recommended and if I don't find what I want with it maybe the competition or wst @Walkalong mentioned or some bullseye as you suggested. If it comes to that I'll flip through some load data and see if I have a use for any of those powders with other cartridges. I like the trailboss load because I've got 8# of the stuff and although it meters horribly, the results I've gotten with 45-70 and 45 colt I'll always keep enough of it on hand.
    Thanks for the reply
     
  10. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    How loud is a standard WC from a rifle? Just curious.
     
  11. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    Start with .38 Special brass and the minimum charge of Titegroup (or powder of your choice) for .38 Special 158 gr LSWC or round nose, and work downward into .38 Long Colt (150 grain LRN data). Stop if you see signs of a round sticking in your barrel.

    The faster the powder, the quicker it will burn up before it exits the barrel. Optimally, all the powder should be burned, and the velocity should be subsonic.
     
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  12. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    I really like the Hornady dry lubed 148 HBWC. I normally use them in .38 cases with 2.7 grains of Bullseye.

    In .357 brass I use 3.5 grains of Bullseye, or 4.7 grains of Unique. I have never used either recipe in a rifle. Were I to, I would be comfortable with the Unique load, but would be cautious with Bullseye. All of those loads are safe with 158 grain cast bullets as well.

    In use, however, both loads sound a lot like gunfire. I don't think they'd solve the problem. In similar situations I have gotten away with subsonic .22 lr, but nothing else.

    Please let us know what you decide on and how it works out!
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  13. Toprudder

    Toprudder Member

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    Have you considered wax bullets? No powder at all, just the primer. I just shot my 357mag revolver in the back yard yesterday, sounds like an air rifle. Have not thought about trying it in my rifle, though. I may have to do that.
     
  14. Waterboy3313

    Waterboy3313 Member

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    Can you post a link to those wax bullets? Not trying to hijack this but it would be greatly appreciated.
     
  15. Obturation
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    Obturation Contributing Member

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    Yeah, I have done wax but prefer hot glue in a 158 swc mold . I shoot them primer only from a 12 gauge chamber insert out of an old baystate (h&r) single shot. They're quiet and will fully penetrate a squirrel but I'm looking for something with a lead bullet that can be loaded normally instead of with a drilled out flash hole and soft bullet material. They aren't accurate past 25 feet so not great for plinking but a lot of fun Any way
     
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  16. Toprudder

    Toprudder Member

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  17. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    There was a time when I shot lots of wax. I had .357 and .45 Colt cases cut for shotgun primers, which fall in and out and allow lots of shooting quickly. I went 'round and asked all my neighbors if they minded the noise and they all said they were fine with it. Most turned out to be shooters themselves and several asked to come see what it was about.

    A few years later one of those neighbors moved away and I forgot to ask the new fellow if he was okay with it. He turned out to be fine too, but I only met him after he called the sheriffs' department. The happy ending is that the responding deputy was a shooter and was also very interested in shooting wax.

    Which is a long drunken way of saying not a whole hell of a lot. Sorry about that, Obturation. :)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  18. Obturation
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    Obturation Contributing Member

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    Here's my previous iteration of the concept, hot glue squirted into a bullet mold. Sometimes I shorten the case because it looks cool and I can ,but no real benefit .
    20200410_120054.jpg
     
  19. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    That short case load is so demented that I guess I will have to try it. I have in mind a certain know-it-all RO who won't have any idea what he is looking at.
     
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  20. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Those look really neat. :)
     
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  21. Obturation
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    Obturation Contributing Member

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    I was shoving the glue bullet all the way down onto the flash hole to get a little velocity boost (the air in the case compresses and cushions the acceleration. So I couldn't easily see if the case was fired or loaded or what so I cut some off and seat onto the flash hole, I drill it out (don't know what size- don't think it matters much- primers do unseat either way (technically should say do not re-seat under recoil - because there is none) . so simply put- I can tell the shorts are live loaded glue bullets , the cartridge shown on the right , the bullet would be shoved clear down to the bottom and then a primer seated.
    I've discussed this a few months ago in this forum (shared the same picture) and the folks who responded seemed interested in trying it but haven't seen any reports
     
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  22. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    I guess the primer doesn't get hot enough to melt the glue bullet?
     
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  23. Obturation
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    Obturation Contributing Member

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    It will blacken it some but generally they'll be reusable if recovered . I'm no scientist but I think it's because the heat is for such a short period that it's not enough to harm it and there is no burn after that. I've shot a couple hundred of these but it's more of a novelty , but it does work. I've been able to get clear through a full can of pop so there is some power there.
     
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  24. Waterboy3313

    Waterboy3313 Member

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    That's interesting stuff I might have to try it.
     
  25. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    I found that with standard primers (meaning primers that fit the regular pockets, whether standard or magnum), velocity and accuracy was all over the map, unless the wax bullets were pushed deeply into the cases. The problem there was that if left for any amount of time, the deeply seated wax would seep into the primers and kill them.

    Cases drilled for shotgun primers are better in almost every way. There is no need for tools to pop out the old primers and seat new ones, and the wax bullets can be pushed into the cases by hand and left flush with case mouths. The cases last indefinitely and can be loaded at a moment's notice, and short-range accuracy is surprisingly good. The only real downside is that 209 primers are shockingly loud.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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