So you bought a new “less than MOA” rifle

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daniel craig

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First, let’s get this out the way, if your rifle is getting 1” groups at 100 yards and 3” groups at 300 yards that’s slightly under 1MOA.



Now that we’ve established that....if you come back and tell me the rifle capable of 1MOA or better you bought “isn’t accurate” (let’s not even get started on accuracy vs. precision) I’m going to assume that no, you just can’t utilize it to it’s full potential. The limiting factor of most modern rifles is the person using it.
 
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Look I’m certainly not a long range shooter, nor am I anything to write home about but I have found far too many folks who totally don’t understand accurate shooting is a complete system.

-Shooter skill
-mechanical accuracy.
-cartridge quality/repeatability from one round to another
-optics/seeing your target clearly.

I can’t tell you how many folks will say a rifle is crap but have only shot the cheapest Tula ammo through it or don’t have even a basic skillset as of yet.

I also thing far too many folks think a rack grade AR15 should be plugging .75 inches all day with aplomb and think 2-3 inches at 100 is HORRIBLE.
 
A long time ago I dabbled in benchrest shooting and became capable of shooting groups of less than 1/2 MOA. I never came anywhere close to winning anything, and a few years after quitting I discovered that my ability to shoot a rifle from the bench had fallen dramatically. I doubt I can achieve better than 1.5" groups at 100 yards these days, no matter how accurate the rifle, so the OP's point is well taken.

Having said that, his wording is liable to incite poop-flinging. I give the thread two days, tops. :p
 
Well of course unless you are shooting indoors with no wind and no exhaust fans running, that will make a difference to. As a 1,000 yard bench rest shooter, you need the right rifle, the right ammo, the right optics, the right support equipment, the right weather and wind conditions or ability to read them well and of course the right shooter. But to shoot sub-MOA, the set up has to be up to it and not all rifles are.

Bob
 
daniel craig said:
.if you come back and tell me the rifle capable of 1MOA or better you bought “isn’t accurate” (let’s. Or even get started on accuracy vs. precision) I’m going to assume that no, you just can’t utilize it to it’s full potential. The limiting factor of most modern rifles is the person using it.
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my experience is different. i used to bring new shooters to the range to shoot long distance all the time. it was very common for one of the LGS to sell a rifle and ask me to take the customer out to help him sight it in, etc. for some reason, most of them could easily hit sub MOA targets even past 1000 yards with my equipment, but struggled to even do 2 and sometimes 3 MOA with their own.

sure, most modern rifles are capable of keeping a reasonably tight group from a vice, but the reason people don't get great groups is usually not just the shooter technique, it's the rifle ergos and way it's set up working against the shooter. and most rifles frankly suck at that and very few are going to shoot a tight group with them.

assume whatever you like, but good equipment is important and if something's not working, it's usually the rifle not the shooter
 
taliv said:
my experience is different. i used to bring new shooters to the range to shoot long distance all the time. it was very common for one of the LGS to sell a rifle and ask me to take the customer out to help him sight it in, etc. for some reason, most of them could easily hit sub MOA targets even past 1000 yards with my equipment, but struggled to even do 2 and sometimes 3 MOA with their own.

sure, most modern rifles are capable of keeping a reasonably tight group from a vice, but the reason people don't get great groups is usually not just the shooter technique, it's the rifle ergos and way it's set up working against the shooter. and most rifles frankly suck at that and very few are going to shoot a tight group with them.

assume whatever you like, but good equipment is important and if something's not working, it's usually the rifle not the shooter
Click to expand...
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree mate. The rifle, by and large, does what you tell it to do.
 
It is very hard to acquire good shooting skills when you only shoot off of a bench and doubly hard when you always use a lead sled. I have yet to find a lead sled, or sand bags in my treestand. Practice shooting from different positions and make shift rest. Shoot a few rounds offhand every trip to the range. It makes a big difference when that buck steps out as you stroll to your stand.
 
an example: i took my daughter (age 12 at the time) out to get her started in this type of shooting. her first 10 rounds ever through a centerfire bolt-action rifle, shot at 200m on a 10" square plate, shooting into the sun went into about a 3" group. she shot a total of 20 rounds that day (all hits)
A74CA9D3-B279-4F49-9A13-2DE5AD0F1E4C.jpeg
EE3C1842-60CE-414C-AAAC-7F5169915128.jpeg

and a few weeks later I took her to shoot a 600 yrd mid-range f-class match. She shot a "master" class score her first match. (though got tired and annoyed by muzzle blast from other shooters and dropped to "expert" class score her second match)
779BCB2D-5D52-452F-9E3A-147A44566380.jpeg

The point is certainly not that she's a good shooter.. The point is that if a 12yo girl with less than 100 rounds of experience can do this, anybody can if their rifle is set up properly and halfway decent. It remains my contention that "MOST" of the bad shooting (from a rest) out there is the fault of the rifle, not the shooter. And we are doing new shooters a disservice by assuming the problem is the shooter.

here's another example i posted ten years ago of a couple kids I took to the range. I believe they were ages 10 and 12.
Both boys (and their older brother) had 1st round hits on the 12" plate from 500 yards in the snow, with pretty high wind (a bit over 10mph, but half value). At the end of this video, the spotter is describing being able to see the bullet trace for the first time. Several hits (not shown in video) were also made with an AR15 using a 10x NF.

C351444B-85EA-4052-A7DC-C26266A4D809.jpeg A6178546-CE11-41F8-99E3-5E823E4EC506.jpeg

the average rifle is not going to make any of those shots even with expert shooter. but an entry level shooter can make those shots with an accurate rifle.
 
taliv said:
an example: i took my daughter (age 12 at the time) out to get her started in this type of shooting. her first 10 rounds ever through a centerfire bolt-action rifle, shot at 200m on a 10" square plate, shooting into the sun went into about a 3" group. she shot a total of 20 rounds that day (all hits)
View attachment 928079
View attachment 928082

and a few weeks later I took her to shoot a 600 yrd mid-range f-class match. She shot a "master" class score her first match. (though got tired and annoyed by muzzle blast from other shooters and dropped to "expert" class score her second match)
View attachment 928080

The point is certainly not that she's a good shooter.. The point is that if a 12yo girl with less than 100 rounds of experience can do this, anybody can if their rifle is set up properly and halfway decent. It remains my contention that "MOST" of the bad shooting (from a rest) out there is the fault of the rifle, not the shooter. And we are doing new shooters a disservice by assuming the problem is the shooter.

here's another example i posted ten years ago of a couple kids I took to the range. I believe they were ages 10 and 12.
Both boys (and their older brother) had 1st round hits on the 12" plate from 500 yards in the snow, with pretty high wind (a bit over 10mph, but half value). At the end of this video, the spotter is describing being able to see the bullet trace for the first time. Several hits (not shown in video) were also made with an AR15 using a 10x NF.

View attachment 928081 View attachment 928083

the average rifle is not going to make any of those shots even with expert shooter. but an entry level shooter can make those shots with an accurate rifle.
Click to expand...

See… Reading that I can’t see where we disagree and I think we’re arguing the same thing from a different point. Both your examples of pretty much pointed out that those rifles delivered good accuracy when the person behind it was also competent. I think if you had taken that same rifle and put it in the hands of somebody else the results would’ve been different....and that’s my point. The rifle is doing what you tell it to do, if you’re not getting the results you expect first look at what you’re telling it to do and then see if it can/can’t follow your instructions.

or maybe I misunderstand you.
 
my point is none of those shooters were competent. they were all brand new. never fired centerfire rifles before in their lives. and they were 10-12 years old. but they still got hits. (first round, and almost every round after that)

however, no amount of expertise is going to result in consistent hits with rifle that is inaccurate. and there are many, many inaccurate rifles out there that don't send bullets where you point them.

doubleh said:
Great job with the kids, taliv. By the way, your "pretty high wind of a little over 10 mph" is just a gentle breeze for this neck of the bushes. :D
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haha yeah, for sure. the dense forests and hills keep the avg winds closer to 2-4mph around here. OK to NM is a different world!
 
daniel craig said:
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree mate. The rifle, by and large, does what you tell it to do.
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Shooters who really can "speak the rifle's language" and tell exactly what needs to be done are few and far between. Most people certainly think they can and they might, providing that they have a half a ton concrete bench and a bunch of sandbags as an "interpreter". :)
 
For the most part I agree with taliv. There was a time when I thought that my skills were the limiting factor to my shooting. Until I bought a more accurate rifle. You still have to have good technique. Where the skill comes in is reading wind and estimating range. With decent rifles, optics, and ammo it doesn't take long to start shooting well
 
jmr40 said:
Where the skill comes in is reading wind and estimating range.
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or shooting in the teens. or shooting positional. and getting your dope sorted to hit at every distance. or shooting fast and under pressure.

but if you're not yanking the trigger cause someone convinced you to start with a 300wm or 338lm, pretty much anyone shoot 1moa. so if you're not, then odds are good that it's the rifle/ammo, not the shooter. and it's easy to figure out with a scope. can you dry fire and keep the reticle on the target? is it moving when you pull the trigger?
 
jmr40 said:
With decent rifles, optics, and ammo it doesn't take long to start shooting well
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but with a 2moa rifle, you'll never start shooting well, because you don't get quality feedback. do it right and you get a 2moa group. do it wrong and you could get anywhere from 2-3moa. you'll need thousands of rounds and a degree in statistics to figure out right from wrong
 
I shot rimfire benchrest for a number of years. Factory rifles don't make the grade, not even Anschutz or the other high end brands. If you want to compete at the top levels you need a custom rifle, a solid quality rest and good optics. The other factor in rimfire accuracy is the ammo as these rifles can be real picky about the stuff you shoot in them. You have to use top shelf ammo like Eley or Lapua.

Also reading the wind correctly is extremely important if you want to shoot a winning score. That is about the only human factor in the game.
 
daniel craig said:
The limiting factor of most modern rifles is the person using it.
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Yes, this is true. But a rifle should be thought of as a "system". Some of the components of the system: The rifle, optic, mounting hardware, bipod or other accessories, a selected round that the rifle likes- all properly assembled- and finally, a shooter applying the fundamentals.
 
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