Best tactical shotgun, pump or semi auto?

Garandimal said:

Man...

Wanted one of these so bad I could taste it.

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Found'em... after the boat had sailed.




GR

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I am so with you on this one. I missed that boat. I’d pay well over retail for one right now.

I either lost my rhythm, or lost effective nervous-system control of my pumping arm, or both, several years ago. After 3+ decades of never short-stroking/short-shucking, I started having failures to complete the pumping cycle. I consulted with one of the firearms instructors at the PD range, and he recommended a much shorter stock. Well, I installed a Magpul stock, on my personally-owned duty 870P, which solved the problem, but my long arms and neck “want” a long stock, so I bought a Benelli M2, with a Comfort-Tech stock, and then a second M2, with the same stock, and have not looked back.

I had briefly owned an HK-era Benelli M1 Super 90, in the early Nineties, but its stock was brutal, so I never really warmed-up to it, though it functioned 100% reliably. When I started hearing good things, later, about the Comfort-Tech stock, available on the M2, I started planning to try one, but it was the problems with my 870P that prompted me to spend the money.

I kept my 870P, and replaced the stock with a Pachmayr Vindicator pistol grip. My aging arms can still reliable work the action when the weapon is closer to my body. (My right shoulder has an actual structural hitch in its git-along, plus my entire arm/hand has some amount of nerve damage; it is not just a strength thing.)

I have seen plenty of LE colleagues, over time, who were bigger and stronger than my skinny self, who short-stroked/short-shucked their pump guns. It is not just a strength thing.

As I said, in my previous post, I never had a problem, until late in life. Mid-fifties. Y’all’s mileage may vary.

Mine is another 590A1. Heavy barrel, extended magazine, ghost ring sight, side saddle. I figure it is not the limiting factor: I just need to shoot it more. I looked very hard at the semi-autos, but it seems to me that, much like revolver vs. auto, when you go the autoloader route your training requirements go up, and I just don't have the time to train as much with the shotgun as I want. Frankly, that is why I also keep a hammer double close at hand. I practice manipulating the hammers and rapid reloading for a few minutes every day. Otherwise the manual of arms is so simple that one becomes familiar with it almost immediately.

Garandimal said:

Man...

Wanted one of these so bad I could taste it.

View attachment 950556
​

Found'em... after the boat had sailed.




GR

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It would be the last gun I culled from the herd, tbh. It really checks off all the boxes I was looking for. I will never shoot a pump gun enough to wear it out. This Retrograde will most likely be sitting in some family member's closet long after im gone.

It ran about $700. Buy once, cry once. It even dethroned my beloved Ithaca 37 DSPS as my go-to shotgun.

But it is a heavy cuss. I would much rather pack that 37 across hell's half acre, but for HD the 590a1 is tough to beat.

That retrograde is definitely a good looking gun. I know the heat shield is available aftermarket. Are the wood furnishings not?

Just for what it is worth, I did a bit of research. It does appear that the heat shield is widely available. Mossberg offers the wood in theory, but like everyone else in this tiresome age is sold out with no estimate on replenishment. Looking at eBay, gunbroker, etc. leads me to believe that a fellow could outfit his 590 to resemble the Retrograde for about 200 bucks. I'm going to have to put some real thought into that...

This sounds interesting. My son is currently looking for a HD shotgun and he's really into the 590A1 8+1 L-series (left-handed) Mossberg introduced a few years ago. Combining that with Retrograde furniture might just be the ticket.

If I ever see one of these Retrogrades for sale anywhere, I will buy one ... just because it's the epitome of a combat shotgun. (Yes, I buy firearms because they look cool. No apologies.)

Old school cool is sometimes the best.

Old Dog said:

(Yes, I buy firearms because they look cool. No apologies.)

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Nothing wrong with that, it certainly applies to most of us when it comes to women, so why not guns.

The idea of a tactical shotgun covers quite a bit of ground these days running from the standard pump models to what I will call the trendy “shock waive” stuff that falls under the BATF “other” category where both ends of the gun are shortened to the point that all you have is a hand held shotgun that’s going to require plenty of practice and skill to do anything other than make noise with it. At the end of the day, go with what fits your budget and what you can make the best hits with. I have half a dozen shotguns that fit into this category. Three are pumps...Mossberg 500, Stevens 350 (Ithaca 37 knock-off) and a Remington 870. All are reliable. The three auto loaders I have are the Mossberg 930, Beretta FP 1201 and a Remington 1187 police Model. With the exceptions of the Mossberg 500 and the Beretta FP1201 all have extended magazine tubes on them. Most of my guns have a tactical light on them (stream light).

In my opinion, the choice of ammo is an important factor for these guns. I don’t use hunting ammo in these guns. Buffered ammo throws a proportionately tighter pattern and kicks much harder than tactical buck shot. I would not recommend anything other than buckshot either. And yes there’s quite a bit of conversation out there about bird shot being just as effective at close range and not over-penetrating. I’m not going to get into that other than to say that the people I know that use shotguns in their line of work for tactical applications advise 00 or 000 Buckshot period! That’s good enough for me. I go with non-buffered 2&3/4” 00...either Sellier & Bellot or Estate. These rounds throw a lousy pattern at any range but a wider pattern. At the range I would likely use my shotgun, wider is better. The recoil on these rounds is reduced too. This makes it much easier for me to recover between shots and get the gun back on target. And forget about the whole “not having to aim a shotgun” argument either. Inside of 15 yards (that’s the likely distance inside a residence) you damn well had better aim if you intend to hit your target and terminate the threat. Just my .02 cents on the subject!

While my former HD gun (and still currently owned) was and is a Mossberg 500, I'd say the ultimate for me has to be my Benelli M3. That way I have a pump AND a semi-auto all in one package!

I keep an old Maverick 88 loaded with 00 Buck. I picked it used for like 150 bucks a few years ago. My 930 JM pro is too finicky and my other shot guns are longer hunting guns.

It isn't a primary option for HD but I like options so I keep it ready.

I have one of each set up similarly. I've shot both types of shotguns since I was a kid, I'd be fine with either, but when the task is to put round after round on target in a hurry, the semi-auto makes more sense to me just like a semi-auto handgun makes more sense than a single-action revolver. If I were putting one in the hands of a less experienced family member to operate in a high-stress situation, semi-auto wins by a much wider margin.

I could easily see dumping all my HD pump shotguns in favor of my Lynx 12 gauge.
Home defense, I'm grabbing an AR15.

I just got a Armscor VR80, and it is still evening out with the break-in, but when it does....I think my 97 and my 870 are going to be neglected for a while. I even plan to hunt with this thing, even if just to make a point to the antis who say "you can't use an AR for hunting." Now I can say I use nothing BUT AR pattern rifles AND shotguns for hunting.

My pick was a Benelli M4 for the following reasons:

• The Marines chose it - they know about this stuff.

In my experience:

• It's extremely well made
• VERY VERY fast action.
• Feeds/fires anything.
• Just the right ergonomics, balance etc... for me and my wife,

Here's a write-up that explains it better than I can:
Military Peculiars: The Benelli M1014

I6turbo said:

If I were putting one in the hands of a less experienced family member to operate in a high-stress situation, semi-auto wins by a much wider margin.

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This is key and is something a lot of people don't understand. "Pump guns is simple and easy" is a false belief which gun-shop experts perpetuate. If you had to train an inexperienced shooter, or one who would likely not practice very much, to use a HD shotgun, a semi-auto is VASTLY easier to learn and run than a pump.

jmr40 said:

Under normal circumstances I prefer a semi-auto. Mine is a Benelli. In theory a pump is more reliable, but they are manually operated and in the real world malfunction more often due to operator error. Kept reasonably clean and fed quality ammo a semi is just as reliable.

But if looking for a survival shotgun that had to function with no excuses in harsh conditions even with poor quality ammo or if filthy I'd choose a pump. My Benelli is the 1st shotgun I'd reach for at home. But if I were looking for a shotgun to survive for a month in the wilderness I'd take my 870.

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Completely agree.


The Benelli SBE III is the best semi-auto shotgun ever made and the Remington 870 is the best pump shotgun ever made IMHO.

I have always liked my Benelli M1 Super 90's which I have had for about 25 years now.

Getting back to the subject a bit...

It's not really semi auto or pump but suitability for the situation. The only semi auto I have with a 20" or shorter barrel for is Benelli M3, namely a slug barrel with rifle sights, and it's been 100% reliable with any 1oz or heavier load. It's usually in the safe, with a 26" hunting barrel, and can't just be grabbed when need be. The 1897 is in the bedroom, loaded with #00 buck and operable in 20 seconds or less.

Glock and HK P7 are in nightstands and next to the 1897 is also a vintage XM177E2, suppressed, with a Holosight and a few Surefire 60rd mags filled in AP/HP/HP/AP/HP/HP -configuration. It's also shorter and lighter than the 1897 and flipping the selector forward will lay a fairly convincing amount of stopping and body armor penetrating power.

Indoors a barrel longer than 20" or so is IMO an disadvantage and a fully automatic rifle with a 11½" barrel (17" or so with a suppressor) feels ideal. Then again, the psychological effect of staring into a 12ga barrel can be quite overwhelming and the point of all is to STOP the intruder from continuing whatever (s)he might be doing.

I've had many shotguns in my life, but practicality and frugality took center stage. when I was in the market I could not find the Moss. 930 with the front sight post etc... so I got the next best thing. I added a two shoot tube extender and a Burris red dot for aimed fire. I still keep around an old Rem. 870 express mag that I added an extended tube to.

Have been in some classes on defensive shotguns. The instructor pointed out that there was only one semiauto shotgun in the group (all the rest pumps) but everybody had a semiauto pistol in his/her holster, and wondered why we were all so wedded to pumps. Demonstrations in that class showed that the semi would put lead on target mor quickly, and now I have passed a couple of pumps on to family in favor of a Mossberg semi and a Benelli M1 tactical. I'll admit to hanging onto a quite old 870, with a perfect smooth action, to which I added an extended mag tube and but the barrel back to just over legal.

I've long moved on to an AR15 carbine for HD, for multiple reasons.

Before that I kept my Benelli M1S90 for HD. I prefer as semi for the same reason a couple others mention, IMHO once the human element has been added, the pump looses it's edge in reliability. My opinion was formed through a couple defensive shotgun classes, a boatload of hunting with pumps and participating in 3Gun matches. When the shooting position is less than desirable, the odds of short-shucking the pump increase.

1KPerDay said:

This is key and is something a lot of people don't understand. "Pump guns is simple and easy" is a false belief which gun-shop experts perpetuate. If you had to train an inexperienced shooter, or one who would likely not practice very much, to use a HD shotgun, a semi-auto is VASTLY easier to learn and run than a pump.

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You are right. Pumps are harder to learn to operate. But while an M1014 is without a doubt a heck of an HD/SD shotgun, not every semi is going to be a good choice. Note the run of "My shotgun won't work" threads popping up, most of them are cheap Turkish semi's I wouldn't trust my life to. I'd take an 870 or Ithaca 37 over them anyday. I will say there are some semis out there I wouldn't mind having for an HD shotgun, and were I not experienced with a pump, (quite a bit in my case) I'd seriously be considering them.