Economics of casting?

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WestKentucky

WestKentucky

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I’m looking very seriously at getting into bullet casting. Running some numbers on purchased bullets vs cast bullets has left me a few holes to fill in to help finalize my decision. Randomly pulling numbers for various bullets (looking for nice even weights to make math simple) and comparing from places like Missouri, Bayou, and Badman it looks like roughly 2/3 of their price is in raw material (buying lots from eBay). Tools have some sort of amortization and I like to call it as quick as I can, so looking at a roughly $500 investment into tools and adding cost for material I figure I can hit a break-even point after casting roughly 20,000 bullets, but that number has zero labor added into it.

Time to spend reloading is scarce, so time for casting will also be scarce. Even if I put my normalized hourly rate at work in for labor that still leaves a big hole that I can’t figure out. Using the big molds, 6 or so cavities per mold I can crank out bullets, but I don’t know how fast that would be, and then I assume I can size them quickly but that also takes time. I may choose to powder coat so that also takes time. I’m thinking Lee bottom pour production pot as it seems likely to be both quick and easy to use. So for experienced casters, how long should I expect to spend at the bench to make 1000 bullets? That nice round number makes math easy.

And I understand that when I put labor into it then it likely won’t make sense any longer, but i am willing to put a premium on the ability to do it myself, and know that I can make what I want as opposed to waiting months for it like people are right now. Part of the desire to jump into casting is for oddball stuff that is unobtainable right now. The big casting companies are all focusing on high volume bullets and not giving production time to slow movers like 38s&w bullets or 32 handgun bullets. I want stuff when I want it, I don’t like being at the mercy of panic buyers.
 
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If you count your time and it will never pay back.....at least not at this point in time. Maybe in 2 or 3 years but more likely 20 or 30.

There is going to have to be a plethora of other subjective benefits to make it worthwhile.

For instance, having a stockpile of wheel weights, a mold, and a heat source can stave off one aspect of a component shortage. Also, casting can give you intrinsic fulfillment through self-sufficiency.

These days, it seems highly beneficial to have alternative sources for everything related to firearms.
 
WestKentucky said:
Time to spend reloading is scarce, so time for casting will also be scarce. . . Using the big molds, 6 or so cavities per mold I can crank out bullets. . .
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You'd think that, but it's not been my experience. I have 2 to 6-cavity molds ranging from $20 to $200, for 9mm through 375H&H. I find that it takes a lot of time to sort the rejects and process/coat the finished product.

-To replace a cheap pistol bullet, it's not even close to worthwhile.
-To replace a high-dollar rifle bullet, it might be worthwhile.
-To replace a bullet you can't buy. . . Obviously it's worthwhile.
 
I put numbers into excel. It looks like if It takes me 2 hours to fully process 1000 bullets (likely would take considerably more) at my normal hourly work rate, I would be paying an extra $16 per thousand and have less time to spend with family (and risk lead poisoning). That doesn’t make sense. Perhaps my dream casting operation needs to trim down from a big operation to only casting what’s hard to get. 32 pistol bullets, 38s&w bullets, .257 60gr gas checked bullets, etc. Shrink budget down to $200 and run with it. Looks like I might be shopping at TOTW based on prices I have seen. Running numbers there looks like I break even around 5000 bullets cast if I don’t include labor. Including labor I’m still paying extra even after buying tools.
 
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I think it’s a foolish idea to try and factor in labor cost on your hobby. Your never going to come out ahead. I think it’s a better idea to focus on the fringe benefits of being self reliant and able to taylor bullet design and hardness to your liking as previously mentioned.
I think of it as just a deeper dive on reloading to gain that much more control of your ammo supply and how it performs down range.

If you can get free lead it’s even better. I don’t mind spending some extra time casting to load a box of 41 magnum or 44 special for about $2.50 per box. When to buy it ( when available) is pushing $35-$40 per box during non panic times.
There won’t be as big of a savings with the more common calibers but that’s just the way it goes with any reloading.
Put a higher value on self sufficiency and the numbers look a bit better.
 
I have never factored in my hobby time as if it were a job. I know folks that do, and more power to them. I enjoy my hobby and don't factor in an hourly wage.

I started with Lee molds and free wheel weights. Was it worth it for me? You better believe it. Pennies on the dollar to shoot.

I have found my home cast bullet best anything I can buy due to my ability to adjust alloy and lube types. I have bought commercial cast and swaged bullets and my home cast are always better for what I use them for (killing paper mostly)
 
Barbaroja said:
I think it’s a foolish idea to try and factor in labor cost on your hobby. Your never going to come out ahead. I think it’s a better idea to focus on the fringe benefits of being self reliant and able to taylor bullet design and hardness to your liking as previously mentioned.
I think of it as just a deeper dive on reloading to gain that much more control of your ammo supply and how it performs down range.

If you can get free lead it’s even better. I don’t mind spending some extra time casting to load a box of 41 magnum or 44 special for about $2.50 per box. When to buy it ( when available) is pushing $35-$40 per box during non panic times.
There won’t be as big of a savings with the more common calibers but that’s just the way it goes with any reloading.
Put a higher value on self sufficiency and the numbers look a bit better.
Click to expand...

You posted this while I was typing. Very similar view point.
 
WestKentucky said:
I put numbers into excel. It looks like if It takes me 2 hours to fully process 1000 bullets (likely would take considerably more) at my normal hourly work rate, I would be paying an extra $16 per thousand and have less time to spend with family (and risk lead poisoning). That doesn’t make sense. Perhaps my dream casting operation needs to trim down from a big operation to only casting what’s hard to get. 32 pistol bullets, 38s&w bullets, .257 60gr gas checked bullets, etc. Shrink budget down to $200 and run with it. Looks like I might be shopping at TOTW based on prices I have seen. Running numbers there looks like I break even around 5000 bullets cast if I don’t include labor. Including labor I’m still paying extra even after buying tools.
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As to the lead poisoning, when you take the proper precautions, its unlikely to happen.Work in a WELL vented area, wash your hands really well, wear gloves to avoid touching it unnecessarily. Don’t eat or drink while casting. Wear a respirator that’s rated for the fumes. There are a lot of ways to mitigate the risks. I’m definitely not advocating being careless, just saying there are ways to do it safely
 
EMC45 said:
I have never factored in my hobby time as if it were a job. I know folks that do, and more power to them. I enjoy my hobby and don't factor in an hourly wage.
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The only time I factor it in is when it’s not something I would expect my kids to do with me. In this particular endeavor I would probably tell them to leave if they wanted to join. I figure that there is an opportunity cost that is hard to capture so my normal hourly work rate seems to be a simple and fair substitute. Fishing, not at all worthwhile monetarily but the kids join in so we just go and have fun whatever the cost. This is not the same though so it has to be looked at a little bit differently.
 
I am sooooooo glad I quit counting pennies for my hobbies. Now if I were a CPA and like to figger out cost per steps/distance shoes would wear out, maybe I'd attach $$$ to my casting/reloading hobby. If I purchased new alloy, I might be able to predict a cost per bullet, but what to do when I blend alloy? Some alloy components I've had for 40 years and don't know what they cost. I have scrounged free WW, some old scuba weights and have found sinkers. How do I add that to cost? If I lubed my cast bullets I could add the cost of lube if I bought it new. Home made lubes from who knows what items (some stolen from Ma's kitchen) and blended at home would be more involved than I care to try. Gas checks? I made some out of soda cans so how co I figger the cost there? I forgot about costing out alloy; do you count the cost as purchased or do you weigh the alloy after cleaning/smelting and determine cost from there? Has anyone thought about utilities cost for running an electric casting pot, or propane for a turkey fryer?

Yeah, sometimes I get frustrated seeing someone want to assign a money values to reloading/casting. but actually I really don't care. If you want to compute cost every time you pull the trigger, well fine. I also just want a newer reloader/caster to see the other side of the story...

I cast bullets because it's fun, very satisfying, and I like to.
I reload because it's fun, greatly satisfying (especially when I use my cast bullets) and is a great pass time. And I like to.

I think I'm just going to go have a fish sandwich that cost about .$2.75. ($.17 per slice of bread. Mayo $.15. Slice of cheese, $.22. To get the fish; Bait, $.50 per hook. Gas to get to fishing hole $2.00. Fishing license $30.00. Price if fish at the market, $6.00 per lb.. Someone else figger this out, I'm just gonna eat it and enjoy)
 
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I luv the labor thing, comes up in every one of these threads.

I have yet to see how many hours/how much labor it took to pay for those bullets after you pay your taxes on your labor.

$500??? Heck, it doesn't take anywhere near that to get started. Your biggest cost is going to be your lead/alloy. Myself I get lead for free from the berms at a local gun club. I also hit the local scrap yards & barter for lead when taking scrap metals in.

Cheap bullets not worth it??? Don't get no cheaper than free. With what most reloaders spend on their "cheap" bullets I spend on primers/powder/molds/etc.
 
If the economics are the most important variable , then don't bother.

I started casting only a few years ago, after starting reloading more than 30 years ago. I go look at the shelves of tooling; I have dozens of moulds. Several varieties of lube. Many, many sizing dies, and 3 separate size/lube machines.

Hundreds and hundreds of dollars invested.

But then, where can you buy a 7.62x54r round with a 210gr bullet and 1500 fps velocity ? Nowhere.

But I can make one.
 
forrest r said:
$500??? Heck, it doesn't take anywhere near that to get started.
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Bottom pour production pot, a dozen molds with sizers, and a few pounds of lead easily hits $500, even if stuff is sourced cheap and used. If I’m jumping in I tend to jump all the way in rather than starting cheap and slowly but surely replacing everything a couple times as I upgrade to what I wanted to begin with. Even the cheap option of a cast iron pot, a ladle, 5 molds and sizers, and a few pounds of lead still hits almost $300. This is just the basics, not counting gas check makers or any other items I would need, lubes, a cheap press for sizing. Here... well it turned sideways on me, but you get the point. Even with my typo making handles only be a dollar... C7E8B89D-4DD5-4534-B2B3-53045AF25962.jpeg
 
Your prices look inflated if I’m reading it correctly.
A lee production 20# pot runs 76$ At midway

I’m assuming correctly the $25 moulds are lee 2 cavity and they come with handles.

I would also suggest starting with just one or two calibers to get the hang of it. There is a learning curve finding size, lube and alloy combinations that work well for your chosen guns.
I understand wanting to go all in, this is also my personal approach most of the time, but if cost is a factor as it is for me. Start small and learn the ropes. You may find you don’t like certain bullet designs but if you buy a bunch of moulds before you figure that out your stuck with them or loosing money on selling them. If you want to buy once and be happy with it. Start slow.
 
I cast bullets occasionally. But I won't make any sort of economical argument for casting one's own bullets.
 
WestKentucky said:
Even if I put my normalized hourly rate at work in for labor that still leaves a big hole that I can’t figure out.
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What it tells me if someone is considering counting their time, is that they do not consider this a leisurely activity. If it's so much of a job that you look at it this way, I would say it's not worth it.

I love reloading and casting, so what my hourly rate is at work never crosses my mind. When I want to watch a movie, smoke a cigar, or make love to my wife I don't figure up my hourly rate and try to determine if I really want to partake in that activity. Because I like all of those things.

I'm too old to do much that I don't like anymore. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but I try to keep it to a minimum.


For a money reference, I can load 1,000 rounds of .44 magnum or .45 Colt for less than $100.
 
Barbaroja said:
Your prices look inflated if I’m reading it correctly
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A bit inflated, but only to cover shipping. I don’t have anywhere to buy casting stuff locally so I likely would have to place several orders from different places to get what I want. And since it’s a little inflated, it should cover the small items I know I’m missing on the list like lube.
 
I cast primarily handgun bullets although I have a mould for my 22 Hornet. My choice. I’d rather use jacketed bullets in my rifles.

I mostly cast bullets that are difficult to get from the retail market.

Secondly, I have a level of independence from panic buying.

Since casting is a hobby for me, time cost is not a factor. Time budgeting is though. I have to decide what my priorities are but never get so engrossed in one activity at the expense of all others.

That is what floats my boat.
 
I enjoy casting. I do it as a way to extend the hobby. Same with reloading, I do it to extend the hobby during the cold winter months.
I consider the tools as a sunk cost for the hobby, just the same as if I bought a new fishing pole.
 
It all depends on how cheaply you can find lead and what you're casting for. Most of my lead has been around $1.00 to $1.25 per pound and found on Craigslist over the last 5 or so years. I don't even look at lots of lead under 200 lbs or over $1.50 per lbs.

Molds can be fairly cheap ($40 for 6 cavity Lee), or expensive ($150 for custom hollow point molds). One bonus with the molds and most of the other equipment is that it holds it's value pretty well as long as it's not abused. Sizing dies can start to add up in price but they are important if trying to optimize accuracy for your guns.

For certain calibers it makes more sense than others. For 9mm you used to be able to buy bullets for around $.06 to $.08. Paying $2 per lbs for lead and making bullets for $.04 makes little sense if looking at it from a monetary perspective. For something like 44 Mag, 45 Colt or .460 S&W I can make bullets for under $.05 versus paying $.20 per bullet.
 
I have lead sitting around here and so I also do the debate. And labor time does count if you have something else that you need to be doing. And equipment costs do count, including the tools to lube and size said bullets as necessary.

I noted a comment earlier about self sufficiency. Let me tell you that if you shoot centerfire, you will never be self reliant because you will need cases and will need primers and most will need smokeless powder. NONE of that stuff can you make yourself. The only nearly self reliant firearm I know of is a black powder flint lock muzzle loader. You can then find the lead and flint. You can cast round ball with nothing but a mold, a dipper, and a camp fire. And, you can learn to make your own propellent.

The bottom line is, do you WANT to try this hobby bad enough to discount the economics or not? If you do, fine. At present, I can buy perfectly good cast bullets from plenty of sources for a pretty reasonable price, so I haven't made the leap......yet.
 
My apologies if my preceding posts sounded like I'm badmouthing those that want to know, exactly what their ammo costs. I am very aware of posts and conversations about "how much will I save", or "how much cheaper is XXX than buying ZZZ?". I grew up in a home with a father that went through the Depression, and I guess he couldn't get out of the "Depression thinking". Everything had a price and if you offered him enough he would have sold anything (maybe even me). He could make Lincoln cry. I lived like that too, until I got a very good job and met my present wife. I also hung around with a bunch of guys that often spoke/taught about "the fear financial insecurity will leave us". Today, I'm definitely not cheap, but not stupid either. If I wanna do something and buy something and the cost won't put me out on the street, I'll do it. (Saw a Masada on line and thought it might be fun and an addition to my herd, so without a second thought I bought it. I deserve it!)
 
In answer to the first question, when I've got two six-pot molds up and running it takes me about three hours to come up with 1000 useable handgun bullets. That doesn't include time to gather everything together, get the pot filled and up to temperature, get the molds clean, warm, and casting properly, etc. It also doesn't count the time to lube and size all those bullets. I've never actually tallied it up, but I'd guestimate about five to seven total hours to have 1000 bullets ready to load.

Now, as to cost: when I was getting lead for free, casting made economic sense. When I started paying a buck a pound for wheel weights, shipped, it still did, kind of, as long as I didn't count labor. Now that I'm paying two bucks a pound minimum - and much more for "pure" foundry stuff - it'd be cheaper to buy bullets from the factory. And now that it is possible (or at least was before Covid) to find the exact shapes I want, in the exact alloy I want, in the exact size I want, with the exact lube I want, there's almost no reason to cast at all. The only thing I can't really buy is the weird, 1-40 .449" target bullet for my long-range percussion rifle.

So I'm honestly not sure that I would get into casting today, again with the exception that Covid seems to have impacted factory-made cast bullet availability to some extent. It doesn't save any money, it's not a super boatload of fun for me, and it's almost unnecessary for the kind of shooting I do.

I have to admit, though, that I'd miss it if I didn't do it. I'm not sure if it's the satisfaction from doing it myself, or the enjoyment of following in the footsteps of Skeeter and Elmer and the rest, or really what it is at all. If I had to do it over again, it would be on a much smaller scale, but I'd still do it.
 
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