Les Baer (thoughts)
- Thread starter Mark_Mark
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JTQ
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Blueing wear is a well known issue to even the casual Baer watcher. It's part of that character thing. If it's going to bother you, well...
Armored farmer
Member
I am hoping to take the plunge into a Les Baer sometime soon.
A young man from our church is working there. I want him to fit one for me.
A young man from our church is working there. I want him to fit one for me.
guyfromohio
Member
CJ carries a good selection and good prices..... https://cj1911heaven.com/LesBaerInventory.html.
George will treat you right if you want to order one, but rarely has one in stock......https://www.migunslingers.com/
Either option will save you money over ordering directly.
George will treat you right if you want to order one, but rarely has one in stock......https://www.migunslingers.com/
Either option will save you money over ordering directly.
JTQ
Member
I disagree in regards to Les Baer 1911's. They are different. You have to realize what you're getting when you choose a Les Baer. In the 1911 world, Baer 1911's have oddities, and the Baer devotee finds character in those oddities.
A car analogy - There are a lot of 2021 Toyota Corolla drivers out there. When they step up to Les Baer pricing - mostly because they don't want to spend Wilson Combat money - they think they are getting a 2021 Lexus. However, what they're getting is a 1970 429 Boss Mustang (Baer by the way sells a Boss 45). It's a little crude, the A/C isn't great, the windows are hand crank, the doors don't fit perfect, the paint has some blotches, but the guy who is a Boss 429 person, overlooks those problems, because he wanted a Boss 429 and not a Corolla or a Lexus. He understands the difference and appreciates the Boss 429. The guy that likes the fit/finish/convenience of a Toyota, who thought he was buying a Lexus, will not be happy.
If you're buying a Les Baer, and think you're getting a Brown or Wilson, at Les Baer prices, you will be disappointed. If you're a Glock guy, and think spending four times what a Glock costs on a Les Baer will get you a gun that is four times better than a Glock, you will also probably be disappointed. The finish will wear faster, the gun will be heavier, the capacity will be lower, there will be fewer sight options, it will require more lube, you'll probably need a bushing wrench to disassemble the gun, the gun will rust easier, and Les Baer may be prickly on the phone if you ever call to complain about a problem.
However, if you are a Les Baer person, and can appreciate that a Baer 1911 is a different animal, from even other 1911's, but that is what you want, there is no substitute for a Les Baer. You just have to realize they aren't for everyone, and you need to know if you are a Les Baer person or not.
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Mark_Mark
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UGGGH you guys are too honest, no selling Baer here. Now I got second thoughts
horsemen61
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@Mark_Mark
if your not sure ask these guys they know their stuff they wouldn’t be as highly regarded as they are if they didn’t if it were me I’d get it, on the 1911 forum iirc one guy had close to 50,000 rounds through his LB!!!!
His handle is Olds442 iirc
I think they make a great product I think the value is there
That’s just me though ymmv
I own a WC CQB and a LB PII; Tark got on me for saying this years ago but in my book it is still true. The price difference “was” about a grand between the two models when I bought them. Externally, there is very little quality/ detail difference. Internally, the refinement difference is obvious - you can see where the extra grand/ bench time went on the inside of the Wilson. At the range, there is no difference - both are accurate, fantastic shooters. My PII is an excellent 1911 for the money and my WC is an excellent 1911 for even more money. If the internal refinement is worth the cost to the buyer, you have to spend the extra to get it. In my opinion, both models are priced accordingly given the time that each model spends at the bench. I like both models for similar reasons and each model for different reasons.
As an aside, I have never had a function problem using the LB mags; in turn, I carried my PII for about ten years (or so), my slide has plumbed (purple) a tad but the overall gun bluing remains flawless - my bluing has held up very well.
As an aside, I have never had a function problem using the LB mags; in turn, I carried my PII for about ten years (or so), my slide has plumbed (purple) a tad but the overall gun bluing remains flawless - my bluing has held up very well.
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guyfromohio
Member
I think he has a video or two on YouTube with that UTC. That finish (or lack-there-of) is dead-sexy.
johnmcl
Member
BLUF - LBs are just fine.
I have been a LB owner for 15 years now. I have a Premier II and an Ultimate Tactical Carry, of which I hate the name. Both guns are of the age that our very own Tark worked on them.
I'm using the Premier for range and IDPA work. I've found the gun to run everything from 230gr FMJs to SWC bullets flawlessly. In fact, this is the gun with which I made Expert a few years back, and continue to tear up the CoFs today. I have even loaded down to shoot NRA Bulleye. (That CoF gets old after 10 minutes....) The accuracy is better than I can hold.
I liked the Premier so much that 10 years ago I bought the Ultimate Tactical Carry. The gun is just as advertised, a dead serious defense gun for serious times. Ya Ya Ya, I hear all the complaints about 1911s for self defense. I'm not debating that dead horse here. Leave me alone.
So does finish wear off? Damn straight, but as expected for operational guns. Kydex holsters are a finish killer. I am of the opinion that if you want a 1911 to look at and not shoot, get a Cabot. If you are a 1911 lifestyle kinda guy, then there are other shooting options, of which LB is a solid contender.
Nothing special, but fun to look at, here's a sample from last weekend. 230gr FMJ, full house load strong hand only.
I have been a LB owner for 15 years now. I have a Premier II and an Ultimate Tactical Carry, of which I hate the name. Both guns are of the age that our very own Tark worked on them.
I'm using the Premier for range and IDPA work. I've found the gun to run everything from 230gr FMJs to SWC bullets flawlessly. In fact, this is the gun with which I made Expert a few years back, and continue to tear up the CoFs today. I have even loaded down to shoot NRA Bulleye. (That CoF gets old after 10 minutes....) The accuracy is better than I can hold.
I liked the Premier so much that 10 years ago I bought the Ultimate Tactical Carry. The gun is just as advertised, a dead serious defense gun for serious times. Ya Ya Ya, I hear all the complaints about 1911s for self defense. I'm not debating that dead horse here. Leave me alone.
So does finish wear off? Damn straight, but as expected for operational guns. Kydex holsters are a finish killer. I am of the opinion that if you want a 1911 to look at and not shoot, get a Cabot. If you are a 1911 lifestyle kinda guy, then there are other shooting options, of which LB is a solid contender.
Nothing special, but fun to look at, here's a sample from last weekend. 230gr FMJ, full house load strong hand only.
JTQ
Member
These days I spend more time talking people out of 1911's rather than into 1911's. I'm a big 1911 fan, but they aren't for everybody.
I've been a 1911 guy for decades. When I started shooting 1911's, I was moving from a double action revolver and an S&W auto. Price, weight, material, capacity, etc., were all about the same. All I had to adjust to was the the single action function. Different, but not a big deal.
Today, most folks are making the move to a 1911 from a Glock or other double stack 9mm polymer striker fired gun.
The first thing is the price. They have a hard time jumping into the $1,000 range for a gun (note how many 1911's RIA sells), let alone the semi-custom $2,000 - $4,000 range (note how many 1911's Dan Wesson sells). With that extra cost over the polymer/striker fired gun, often comes unrealistic expectations of what they're getting.
I agree, and I've been reading posts from guys like olds442guy, USMC 0802, Ken Mays, Black Majik, and others for years who all love their Les Baer's and use them like hammers, and they look like they're hammers. It doesn't bother them. Their guns work great, over many rounds, but they don't look like they just came from the factory.
WVsig
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Let me start by saying I like 1911s. I have owned everything from basic stock Colts and SA up to complete full house customs built on Colt base guns or bare frames. I shoot a lot of 1911. BHPs and 1911s are my go to platforms. I still caution you to take my statements with a grain of salt and remember how much you paid for them. For me personally Dan Wessons are the current gateway drug to higher end 1911s. They are a step up from standard production Colts and SAs. Les Baer is a step up in some ways from Dan Wesson and it a step down in others.
Step Up:
- With Les Baer you move into the world of the semi-custom production line gun. There are options available to you if you want to order directly from them vs buying off the shelf. So things like magwells, ambi safeties, sight changes, no front serrations etc....within the Les Baer universe are available which is a plus.
- The guns are bank vault tight and if that is something you like you will not find a tighter fitting from the factory gun.
- They are built to be working man's guns IMHO. They are not shadow box collectibles or pure BBQ guns. They are made to be lubed up run hard and put away wet.
- Accuracy is on Avg IMHO better than most other production level guns but you as a shooter have to be able to take advantage of it for that to matter.
- They are built by hand in a more old school way then a lot of other modern 1911s as I understand it using less CNC machining and more hand work then most other pistols at this price point.
- They have limited finish options and those options are old school. Blue, SS or Hard Chrome. IIRC. No other more modern and durable finishes like Ion Bond or Melonite. The bluing is also often thin.
- They use frames with Govt length rails for all guns including Commanders and Officer sized guns. As note by others this means some Commanders and Officer sized configurations will not sling shot because of dimensional issues. This can be corrected by other smiths but not by Les Baer.
- Limited Sight options.
- Frame are dimensionally different than most others these days. The back strap is off in a couple ways. Mainly the hole location and key way for the MSH. The trigger opening is way undersized than it needs to be.. Aftermarket grips do no always fit properly. Things like magwells and other mainspring housings do not fit because of the location of the mainspring housing pin location. This is an issue with Le Claire frames more than Hillside.
- Les has a reputation of being a PIA and that their answer to every problem is shoot the gun more and call us back. For a $2000 1911 they have a poor customer service rep vs someone like S&W.
Now I think the comparison of the Les Baer to a Wilson or Higher end Ed Brown is a false comparison. There is a pretty big price jump to get to the Wilson from the Baer. The Wilson will be 50% more than the Les Baer. I am comparing it the Baer to a CQB Wilson. That is a bit jump and the difference in the two guns is philosophical and for the most part cosmetic. The Wilson will look better. It will have less tool marks. The finish will be cleaner. Shooting the 2 at 25 yards and under 99% of us will not shoot better with one over the other. Saying that the Baer is not as nice as a Wilson is like me saying my CBOB does not compare to my Les Baer. It is a false comparison.
I think @JTQ nailed it. If you educate yourself on what you are getting with a Baer and you are cool with that or it appeals to you then get one. They are built to be hard use guns. They are made to be rode hard and put away wet. They are perfect for someone who wants a hard use 1911 and does not plan to modify it much down the line. As I said frame dimension can make things like magwells and grips expensive modifications. They will not be the prettiest 1911 but they have an old school feel. They will have tool marks on the inside. They will show wear from use but IMHO that is what you buy them for. You buy them to shoot them. They are made to go in and out of holster thousands of times over their existence and are built with a finish which will show it. They are to me an excellent working man's 1911. This is an old pic of my TRS. It has a lot more wear these days. I don't think I will ever part with it in my lifetime. @tark is a great resource for info on Baers. Another one the 1911 forum and 1911Adicts forum is Rob Schauland.of Alchemy Custom who also worked for Les.
As to their reliability and build quality overall they are excellent. The vast majority of guns run and we never hear about any issues. The issues we do hear are often magnified and repeated over and over again in the echo chamber of the internet these days. As Ken Hackathorn likes to quote Jeff Gonzales "Even a monkey falls out of a tree sometimes." It is really about how does the company deal with the issues that come up. See #5 in Step downs.... LOL
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Mark_Mark
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Thanks Everyone for the write up’s and semi-essay’s. This is way more than anybody can ask for in terms of feed back. I did read everyone’s post word by word. THR always suppress me!!! you guys really come through.
My thoughts, Les Baer is a working mans custom gun, a man who wants a quality gun and will carry it like a tool. So, I should probably get one and experience it for myself.
I have carried tons of different guns. I’m new to 1911’s, but after carrying a Colt Defender. I’m hooked on 1911’s. They feel natural in the hands and point really well. And, the .45 ACP is just the right amount of power to wake you up and gives you good shooting confidence!
Thanks again EVERYONE! you Folks are the best!
My thoughts, Les Baer is a working mans custom gun, a man who wants a quality gun and will carry it like a tool. So, I should probably get one and experience it for myself.
I have carried tons of different guns. I’m new to 1911’s, but after carrying a Colt Defender. I’m hooked on 1911’s. They feel natural in the hands and point really well. And, the .45 ACP is just the right amount of power to wake you up and gives you good shooting confidence!
Thanks again EVERYONE! you Folks are the best!
I would go with a full size. I carried full size 1911 from Springfield for more than 30 years. Easy to shoot, slim, and very concealable. Once in a while I would carry the Commander size also but preferred the full size with full loads. I found the Commander size harder to do follow up shots but still very manageable when it comes to recoil giving you more of a muzzle flip whereas the full size pushes your hand back but still in line with your target.
You can not go wrong with a 1911 or a Les Baer.
PS. Though not asked a good gun belt is key and foundation for carrying any firearm regardless of weight or make or model. I've never had issues with the Kore Essentials belt and not as expensive as other belts. Check the website for their belts under same name.
JR24
Member
Looks like it was covered well above.
My opinion, is Baer is in an odd spot. If I'm spending more than Dan Wesson money, I kinda want to go just that little more and get into Wilson territory. I've had great results from them and Wilson's CS is second to none (the amazing response they had to my father's neophyte 1911 and reloader questions was beyond impressive to me. He had a lot and every one was answered quickly and thoroughly).
Good guns, but I don't think I'd choose one at this point in my gun life.
Fairly chunky carry gun to be sure. My back recently, regardless of good belt, decided that 40+ oz is a no go for EDC. Carried a 43 oz VBob or 47ish oz Warrior for a number of years. Winter carry in a state with actual winter is pretty nice, up in AK I routinely concealed a 4" Redhawk .44 mag without anyone noticing, under a simple flannel. Or, more often, a Glock 21.
These days I need to stay around 36 oz loaded to carry 12+ hours without nightly back pain.
My opinion, is Baer is in an odd spot. If I'm spending more than Dan Wesson money, I kinda want to go just that little more and get into Wilson territory. I've had great results from them and Wilson's CS is second to none (the amazing response they had to my father's neophyte 1911 and reloader questions was beyond impressive to me. He had a lot and every one was answered quickly and thoroughly).
Good guns, but I don't think I'd choose one at this point in my gun life.
Fairly chunky carry gun to be sure. My back recently, regardless of good belt, decided that 40+ oz is a no go for EDC. Carried a 43 oz VBob or 47ish oz Warrior for a number of years. Winter carry in a state with actual winter is pretty nice, up in AK I routinely concealed a 4" Redhawk .44 mag without anyone noticing, under a simple flannel. Or, more often, a Glock 21.
These days I need to stay around 36 oz loaded to carry 12+ hours without nightly back pain.
This is my Les Baer Wadcutter.
It is an extremely accurate 2700 Bullseye competition pistol. I have been shooting mine, about twice a month, in NRA 2700 competition for the last six years. My load is 200 LSWC 4.0 to 4.1 grains Bullseye, any case, any primer. It will hold the ten ring at 50 yards.
The trigger is outstanding, everything is still tight, I have had no parts breakage. The wadcutter has a unique firing pin and purchased extra, Les Baer made a firing pin with a very thin shaft, and I don't know why. The pistol comes with, and I am using, a 12 lb recoil spring. Les Baer Customer service told me not to shoot any bullets heavier than 200 grains, I assume the extra mass of the rib and Ultradot are the reason.
The only real malfunction was the screws backed out of the rib. They all do. I reinstalled with red loctite, and they took longer to back out. So, I used a two part epoxy and glued the base, and screws, on the slide. So far, it has held.
If you shoot a rifle or a pistol enough, any scope base will work its way loose. Screws cannot be trusted to stay tight. As rifle and pistol bases get loose, I have learned, the best thing to do, is epoxy glue the things down.
A gentleman was shooting this 1911 next to me at a Bullseye Pistol Match
the shooter made this one. Probably saved himself some money. I don't remember the original maker of this type of 1911, with the saw teeth front end barrel lockup, but they were selling for $5650 around 2012.
It is an extremely accurate 2700 Bullseye competition pistol. I have been shooting mine, about twice a month, in NRA 2700 competition for the last six years. My load is 200 LSWC 4.0 to 4.1 grains Bullseye, any case, any primer. It will hold the ten ring at 50 yards.
The trigger is outstanding, everything is still tight, I have had no parts breakage. The wadcutter has a unique firing pin and purchased extra, Les Baer made a firing pin with a very thin shaft, and I don't know why. The pistol comes with, and I am using, a 12 lb recoil spring. Les Baer Customer service told me not to shoot any bullets heavier than 200 grains, I assume the extra mass of the rib and Ultradot are the reason.
The only real malfunction was the screws backed out of the rib. They all do. I reinstalled with red loctite, and they took longer to back out. So, I used a two part epoxy and glued the base, and screws, on the slide. So far, it has held.
If you shoot a rifle or a pistol enough, any scope base will work its way loose. Screws cannot be trusted to stay tight. As rifle and pistol bases get loose, I have learned, the best thing to do, is epoxy glue the things down.
A gentleman was shooting this 1911 next to me at a Bullseye Pistol Match
the shooter made this one. Probably saved himself some money. I don't remember the original maker of this type of 1911, with the saw teeth front end barrel lockup, but they were selling for $5650 around 2012.
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Mark_Mark
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The one thing I don’t like about Wilson is the Starbust Grips and design. When I think of 1911 single stack, I think, Blue steel with walnut grips!
JR24
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Easy enough to replace. Esmeralda makes some wonderful grips.
https://esmeralda.cc/
Wilson does offer a rosewood grips too.
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Mark_Mark
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that Ultra Dot can handle the slide riding?
Kevin Rohrer
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Les Baers (especially the Hillsdales) are well-made and as good a quality gun as Wilson, Nighthawk, etc. I own five Baers of them (among a bunch of other makes) and will never sell them.
You cannot expect others to make your buying decision for you as to size, make, or model.
A Hillsdale Baer SRP in .45ACP that is just as good now as when it was made <2006. It is a dream to shoot, is 110% reliable, and a tack-driver.
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