Ukraine to Grant Citizens Right to Bear Arms

As I understand it they are only handing out weapons to people who are veterans of the Ukrainian armed forces and those civilians who have already taken their “ crash” course in firearms handling. They also called up their reserves males from 18 to 60. The Ukraine has a history of effective partisan resistance in the Second World War. If the Russians go for the cities then these irregular troops can cause myriad problems and casualties. It’ll make it more costly for the Russians.
I’m sure any other old vets here would respond to the call if it was our country in trouble. We may not be 18 or even 40 anymore but we can still shoot etc. and many of us don’t need to go farther than the next room to arm up.

unclenunzie said:

Off topic but I was curious about the reference to this judge, whose words ring clear with truth. An easy search found this as well, by him recalling his family's exit from behind the iron curtain at age 12:

I remember leaving Romania, December 24, 1961. And I still remember being on the train, making plans for myself, how I would to go the West where people were oppressed and I would share my knowledge of Communism and help bring enlightenment by helping to tear down capitalism. ... And the next thing I remember, I was in Vienna, and I got bubblegum and chocolate, which were freely available. It was as though a cloud or veil had lifted. It was such a different world, you had real consumer goods. People weren't running around with shackles. Everything that had been said about the West was untrue. Bananas were plentiful. In Romania, my father used to have to work a half-day to get three bananas. I remember going with my parents to an open-air market in Vienna and seeing all these bananas, cheap, ... and wondering whether they would be there tomorrow. I looked a week later and they were still there. There was no conscious rethinking or recalculating my point of view. I was now an instant and fervent capitalist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Kozinski#cite_note-7

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That's freaking awesome. He was considered a liberal judge too but he was clearly a different kind of liberal judge. These days, it's toe the party line or else your career is over and so, they toe the party line just like any communist would.

Lol you guys. This isn't the 1800's. A well trained soldier with the latest in body armor, night vision and a tank in front of them would just lob a grenade in your direction and keep going.

I don't discount the great will of people and hate to see this happening to any nation just trying to survive. I too would do all to protect my family but sometimes you have to live to fight another day.

Bruce D Pease said:

As I understand it they are only handing out weapons to people who are veterans of the Ukrainian armed forces and those civilians who have already taken their “ crash” course in firearms handling. They also called up their reserves males from 18 to 60. The Ukraine has a history of effective partisan resistance in the Second World War. If the Russians go for the cities then these irregular troops can cause myriad problems and casualties. It’ll make it more costly for the Russians.
I’m sure any other old vets here would respond to the call if it was our country in trouble. We may not be 18 or even 40 anymore but we can still shoot etc. and many of us don’t need to go farther than the next room to arm up.

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If they're willing to stand up and fight and die for their independence, I feel like we owe them support though I don't see how we can openly support them against Russia without risking open warfare with the second most advanced nuclear superpower on earth. The Russians are no joke. An overt act of war would be extremely risky for the entire world but my gut tells me, we have already provided them with the materials that they will need and there is a "pipeline" to provide more or maybe I'm just hoping that we have. Regardless, this is the most dangerous situation the planet has been in since...the Cuban missile crisis and we have to consider that this situation is going to get way the heck out of control and maybe quickly.

Even Hollywood is pulling for the underdog. I have been playing this in my head all day.

ericuda said:

Lol you guys. This isn't the 1800's. A well trained soldier with the latest in body armor, night vision and a tank in front of them would just lob a grenade in your direction and keep going.

I don't discount the great will of people and hate to see this happening to any nation just trying to survive. I too would do all to protect my family but sometimes you have to live to fight another day.

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The Vietnamese started out with rifles and they ended up with OUR tanks. So did the Taliban. Tactics will ALWAYS prevail over technology because the human brain is the deadliest weapon on the battlefield.

AlexanderA said:

An armed mob would get massacred. They would need training, organization, leadership, and logistical support. There's no time for any of that.

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That depends.

An armed mob fighting in the open would likely be massacred. The optical equipment on tanks, fighting vehicles, and aircraft is truly incredible and could target and strike combatants in the open with ease.

However, I imagine the citizenry fighting as insurgents. Not everyone in Ukraine is pro-Ukraine and the Russians are intending to target military targets. My point is that citizens who take up arms in Ukraine can present to the Russians a similar scenario that the U.S. faced in Iraq and Afghanistan or the French in Algeria. This style of fighting presents issues with determining friendly from hostile from foe, which will likely cause the Russians to use more restraint as they seek to minimize collateral damage (avoid innocent civilian deaths and pro-Russia Ukrainian deaths). It doesn’t take much for someone to take a few shots from a window, throw the gun under the bed, and go about his/her day like nothing happened.

redcon1 said:

So did the Taliban. Tactics will ALWAYS prevail over technology because the human brain is the deadliest weapon on the battlefield.

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And it's own worst enemy. Hopefully whatever happens is a lesson to all. Loss of life and a decade of economic and personal hardship is all that's certain.

I saw some video this afternoon on a Ukrainian citizen who had been given two AK's, and what looked like a bag probably containing mags and ammo. He said that he had never fired a weapon before. He was holding the two rifles as if they were snakes that were going to bite him. Hoping he gets a crash course before confronting Russian troops.

Sistema1927 said:

I saw some video this afternoon on a Ukrainian citizen who had been given two AK's, and what looked like a bag probably containing mags and ammo. He said that he had never fired a weapon before. He was holding the two rifles as if they were snakes that were going to bite him. Hoping he gets a crash course before confronting Russian troops.

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He's exactly the kind of guy that the AK47 was designed for-the simple minded peasant with no previous weapon handling experience. I sure hope they more up their sleeve than peasants armed with AK47s though.

An armed, guerilla civilian force can do wonders against a standing army. Just ask Iraq, Vietnam, or Afghanistan. It is a shame that it took a pending and current invasion to pass the law though.

Can anyone educate me on what it would take to buy any gun 3 months ago if I was a Ukrainian citizen? (I am being generous). I guessing they missed the boat. Please correct me if I am wrong.

They have a long military history and have activated a large reserve force earlier this week. No every man needs to be an expert with a rifle. Your gonna want some who are medically trained, cooks are good and a few strong young men who can haul stuff will be valuable to some of those old Veterans. I am sure there are some of those Veterans that served during Soviet times and are very familiar with Russian equipment and tactics. Not going to be easy taking a large city with tens of thousands of armed men who know the city. Especially with family members hiding in the subway system. Motivation will not be a problem! Russians on the other hand!

For those pointing to Afghanistan and Vietnam as examples for Ukrainians to follow, keep in mind the topography is completely different. Afghanistan had rugged terrain that afforded fighters cover to hide and deployment of troops to them difficult. In Vietnam, it was the jungle. Ukraine is mostly a flat land that appears to provide much less opportunities to hide and fight. While urban warfare might be viable, it would create terrible casualties on any citizens remaining. And I would not put it past Putin to simply say, "Bomb them back to the stone age."

It’s probably a little late now. If they would have had the right to arm to start with Russia may have taken a second thought before invading.

I did notice that the military over there was supposedly training civilians with firearms. If one read Federalist Papers number 29 "Concerning the Militia", we are to he trained by the state to be part of the militia. So in a way they are doing it the way our founding fathers had intended for us.

Sure, they lack a lot of training and practice and probably stand no chance against the Russian military, especially Spetsnaz. Hopefully it goes well for them.

I suspect this will not turn into a full scale war. Some areas of the country have strong connections with Russia and a big chunk of people may simply shrug about a government change if there isn't a martial crackdown on civilians. Of course the Russians are calling themselves peacekeepers and anti-facists with news stories about liberating people from an oppressive and corrupt government. I do wonder how long before they gain control of the lists of civilian gun permits and do sweeps to disarm possible political enemies.

AMERICAN and English troops already on the ground taking back Hostomel:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/c...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Gemtleman, we are at war.

JCooperfan1911: Wow, that's amazing!

Some of the first targets of Russian missiles/sappers, whatever, must have been the storage facilities of Ukraine's military small arms, but it's doubtful (?) that select-fire AK-74s or much older AKMs (47) would have been given to basic civilians.

This somehow reminds me of the West Hollywood shootout in the 'good ole 90's' (one bad guy had a select-fire AKM) where two police officers raced into a gun store for rifles, so that they could fight back with More than handguns or shotguns.

>> Maybe the Ukrainian govt. anticipated this need for citizen small arms several days or weeks ago, but didn't want to appear in a state of panic?

Crimea: There is a jet mechanic with one of the largest US airlines who grew up in Crimea and his parents, or at least some family, are ethnic Russians (he told me, several years ago).
Just a microcosm of various family backgrounds.

no ruler can grant our inalienable right to bear arms. and a right that is granted can just as easily be grabbed back. the ukrainian government pushing a false narrative in panic.

i shared a train compartment with two ukrainian guys in poland 3 years ago. they were well-off/educated english speakers on holiday. they were shocked that we have rkba and i conceal carry daily, had no interest in owning firearms themselves, and said “no way” to joining even the ukrainian part-time reserve forces. i wrote off ukraine then and there. virtually all of our nato “allies” are the same: defenseless, uninterested, and happy to have our firearms and blood at their disposal. on the other hand, the swiss “get it” and yet they want no part of any alliance. twice in the last century my family permanently gave uncles to europe, imho that was enough.

JCooperfan1911 said:

AMERICAN and English troops already on the ground taking back Hostomel:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/c...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Gemtleman, we are at war.

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no, we are not at war, thank god, nor should we be there.

the neutrality act, 18usc959, makes it an offense to enlist in the armed forces of another nation, though i would make exceptions for hunter biden, natalie jaresko, the chalupa sisters and the vindmann brothers.

AlexanderA said:

An armed mob would get massacred.

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True – in Ukraine or the United States.

Lots of different opinions here, most thinking that a strong resistance that causes many problems and casualties would make a great difference in the outcome… That supposes that the leaders in Russia care about their soldiers the way we do….

That’s not how they’ve acted in the past. I’m expecting the same kind of meat grinder we saw in Syria where a strong willed resistance was just chewed up however it had to be done. No matter how long it took or what the cost.

Wish it weren’t so…

The funny part is this:

"... the Ukrainian government has moved to declare a 30-day state of emergency, grant citizens the right to bear arms, and conscript military reservists..."

No. What they are doing isn't "granting" a "right", they're "granting" a "privilege".

If something is a "right" it doesn't need to be "granted". The people already have it. What's really happened is historically their government has been DENYING it's citizens this right in the first place.

What they're trying to do is ARM their citizens while they go about conscripting their reservists into active duty military. This would give them a larger population of armed citizens to pull from in defense.

After the need for military support in defense of their country goes away, they will go right back to the way things were before and that privilege will disappear.

However, as I'm sure someone else has already said, this is too little, too late.